[Closed] Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

I'm glad that your adoption of religion has given you some happy things, Ro5ey.

I'm still unclear as to what your god actually looks/sounds like or consists of, as you seem to be avoiding the question.

Edit: Oh. He's gone.

Yep, I was right, you Atheists have clubs, organisations forums, my you even have [url= http://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/stand_up_comedians_launch_uk_s_first_atheist_church_in_islington_1_1747944 ]your very own church[/url] sorry dudes you're every bit as nutty as the theist fruitcakes..

Agnosticism - it's the only truth and the light.

Second programme of Derren Brown's most recent programme:

In the second programme, Brown demonstrates how he can induce a "religious experience" in a self-styled Atheist (and stem-cell scientist). He reproduces a number of well known psychology experiments which show how even non-believers are "hard-wired" to be susceptible to suggestions of super-natural (and religious) presences.

There's lots of shared experiences/movements/speech/singing in church services, which I'd say would make people feel part of a group and experience empathy/rapport like [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology) ]mirroring[/url] does. You can experience the opposite of this by [i]not[/i] joining in during a church service; it's quite an uncomfortable feeling.

Hmm maybe I should go and look it up, but my belief was that Atheist believe definitely that there is no God.

So Atheism is a belief system in which they can conduct their lives with out fear of heavenly retribution.

Atheism is not a belief system. I don't believe in father christmas is that a belief system too?

Not believing in gods implies absolutely nothing else about a person or how they might conduct their lives.

The upside seems massive to me and the downside very limited ??

Pascals wager = Cop out.

Second programme of Derren Brown's most recent programme:

In the second programme, Brown demonstrates how he can induce a "religious experience" in a self-styled Atheist (and stem-cell scientist). He reproduces a number of well known psychology experiments which show how even non-believers are "hard-wired" to be susceptible to suggestions of super-natural (and religious) presences.
There's lots of shared experiences/movements/speech/singing in church services, which I'd say would make people feel part of a group and experience empathy/rapport like does. You can experience the opposite of this by not joining in during a church service; it's quite an uncomfortable feeling.

Anyone who who's done a lot of clubbing will also testify to this, regardless of their religious beliefs or level of propensity for recreational drug use.

joolsburger - Member
Hmm maybe I should go and look it up, but my belief was that Atheist believe definitely that there is no God.
So Atheism is a belief system in which they can conduct their lives with out fear of heavenly retribution.

Atheism is not a belief system.

Well if it's not a belief system why do they have a church? (see a couple of posts back)

What have you got to lose? As opposed to what you may gain?

Mike's alright after not finding God with all his experiences. Yet I've gain loads, when I wasn't really that worried either way.

The upside seems massive to me and the downside very limited ??

Downsides for me, if I became a Christian:
Believing that one of my sister's relationships isn't as special as my other sister's relationship, because it has the incorrect number of penises involved;
Giving up my Sunday mornings;
Spending time with some slightly odd people;
Angst over whether I was interpreting the bible correctly;
Cognitive dissonance;
Guilt over propping up an unjust system of governance.

Well if it's not a belief system why do they have a church? (see a couple of posts back)

There's a meeting where stuff is discussed. To me, it sounded more like a sciencey stand-up show.

Muslims and Jews don't have churches. Are they not religions?

Who has a church, two comedians and a few people in Islington? Not going for that they are prolly christian plants trying to embarrass Richard Dawkins.

And who are they exactly? I'm as atheist as it gets I have no relationships with anyone via atheism however I may know a few for other reasons.

If God is omnipresent, why do Christians feel the need to attend church on a Sunday to worship him?

Well if it's not a belief system why do they have a church? (see a couple of posts back)

Well having taken in the time to actually read that link it seems that they just want a place to have a bit of a get together/singsong and say hey isn't it great to be alive. Not something I'd join if I'm honest but to each their own.

There is also the slightly comedic part about the catholic preist being a bit offended by it so it's not an idea totally devoid of merit.

a few people in Islington

I did a couple of courses here in the nineties, when they were in Islington.

Interesting experience in how to manipulate perceptions by involving a group of people in trusting the aims of the organisers/directors...

http://www.grubb.org.uk/

What have you got to lose?

Hours of my life?

As opposed to what you may gain?

What am I likely to gain that I don't already have?

if it's not a belief system why do they have a church?

The fact that it's been founded by a comedian might shed some light onto that.

If you read back through previous discussions, Ro5ey has posited that the 'church' does good things, gives a sense of community and brings people together, and I've argued that there's no reason why we can't do that anyway without all that messy 'religion' business.

Essentially, it's a community centre, serving the same purpose that churches have historically done but without all the "you'll go to heaven if you do as you're told and burn in hell if you don't" bribery / blackmail which often comes with organised religion.

Cool idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blessing

The more are gathered together, the lower the IQ count...

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO #

Neocharismatic? Most christians would think they are crazy bonkers. Extremists of all types could be used to condemn the majority.

An observation, most of the arguments which are put forward by the atheists are far from new, they have been well considered by most of the mainstream churches for many years and in more complex ways. Not to mention all the sophomoric long into the night discussions at Uni.

Essentially, it's a community centre, serving the same purpose that churches have historically done but without all the "you'll go to heaven if you do as you're told and burn in hell if you don't" bribery / blackmail which often comes with organised religion.

I am drawn to this idea and also to the idea that regardless of the ills of organised religion there is much to be learned from personal faith. It's why I'll happily stick the boot in organised religion but am reluctant to do so to faith despite being and athiest myself.

The big problem with the idea you propose is what glue will hold that group together?

On my phone so bear with

Mike c'Mon .... How does the Mrs feel about your sisters. Slightly odd people, hmm like the one you are married to... 🙂

C... To gain .... Get your kids in the school... Nah joke, but see the rest of my first post, for my experiences

An observation, most of the arguments which are put forward by the atheists are far from new, they have been well considered by most of the mainstream churches for many years and in more complex ways. Not to mention all the sophomoric long into the night discussions at Uni.

There is truth in what you say but it is a truth that everyone needs to come to themselves and an argument that everyone needs to live out for themselves.

Mike c'Mon .... How does the Mrs feel about your sisters. Slightly odd people, hmm like the one you are married to...

As I said earlier, my wife's a woolly liberal Anglican so is ok with the gays. Many of her fellow congregation are not and as an organisation it is not.

She'd agree with my assessment of her being slightly odd. Many of her fellow churchgoers are differently-odd, with several being particularly unpleasant people.

The big problem with the idea you propose is what glue will hold that group together?

I'm going to go to the pub with my mates tonight. We've managed to do this fairly regularly for the last twenty-mumble years without requiring religion to keep us attending.

What have you got to lose? As opposed to what you may gain?

I place huge [b]personal[/b] value on the principles and ideas that have led me to an atheist position. I would have to give those things up.

Downsides for me, if I became a Christian:

Weak. You don't have to do any of those things to qualify as Christian.

I'm still unclear as to what your god actually looks/sounds like or consists of, as you seem to be avoiding the question.

That's cos it's a bloody stupid question, I'd be ignoring it too. Why does it matter if he knows or not? You want me to plane you again?

Atheism fits into a mechanistic view of the universe (only the observable, physical is real) which is definitely a belief system. I think most self described atheists in this thread would happily agree with this system of belief, ie. there is no reality beyond what we can see and measure.

Weak. You don't have to do any of those things to qualify as Christian.

I was basing the list on my observations of Christians. Hopefully, people also speed the tongue-in-cheek nature of the list.

I don't qualify as a Christian because of my disbelief in their (or any) god and in the divine nature of a bloke 200 years ago.

Atheism fits into a mechanistic view of the universe (only the observable, physical is real) which is definitely a belief system. I think most self described atheists in this thread would happily agree with this system of belief, ie. there is no reality beyond what we can see and measure.

Not necessarily. Buddhists are atheists.

infradig - Member

Atheism fits into a mechanistic view of the universe (only the observable, physical is real) which is definitely a belief system. [b]I think most self described atheists in this thread would happily agree with this system of belief, ie. there is no reality beyond what we can see and measure.[/b]

I wouldn't.

Believing that one of my sister's relationships isn't as special as my other sister's relationship, because it has the incorrect number of penises involved;

if I could create a universe containing everything, squillions of galaxies and underpinned by complex physical laws and so on, I'd demand to have a infinitely small percentage of it sit in a room and sing songs about me too.

Just had a skim, and someone posted (along the lines of ) 'Religion, give it a try, what's to lose?'

Well a fair bit actually. I don't support homophobia, child genital mutilation, the suppression of females, I didn't think much of Hitler, I don't agree with that bloke who's top banana of that Christian church banning contraception so leading to millions dying of AIDS...and all of these I'd be supporting if I joined up.

I'll quote Steven Weinberg "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.”

My sister couldn't meet her ex's catholic parents.

One of my school friends isn't allowed in his baptist (I think) father's home.

One of the priests at or local church put a petition against gay marriage in the church.

I think most self described atheists in this thread would happily agree with this system of belief, ie. there is no reality beyond what we can see and measure.

No no no. Jesus, why is this so difficult a concept to grasp?

I'm happy to accept that there may be more to the universe (and maybe beyond) than we currently know about or can measure. But just because there may be things we don't yet understand doesn't mean we should be giving credence to any old shit that someone made up once, let alone then start proclaiming that to be fact.

Mike, they were of the generation where no one asked them what was going on and they didn't tell.

I genuinely despise the church's attitude towards homosexuality and predjudice, but as I'm sure you're aware what happens 'on the ground' sometimes bears little relation to the official line.

ps, Of course, they were never allowed to do anything as ridiculous as come out: If they had, I'm sure things may have been different.
The church did lend her the money for her mortgage in the 60's though:
All the mainstream banks wanted the signature of a male relative before they'd even consider a single woman as suitable.

I know of at least on deputy head of catholic school who is gay and lives with another woman. They were probably the same/similar generation to your aunt.

I genuinely despise the church's attitude towards homosexuality and predjudice, but as I'm sure you're aware what happens 'on the ground' sometimes bears little relation to the official line.

Another example of believers not [i]really[/i] believing? At least [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church ]fundamentalists[/url] have the courage of their convictions? 😉

TuckerUK - Member
Just had a skim, and someone posted (along the lines of ) 'Religion, give it a try, what's to lose?'

Well a fair bit actually. I don't support homophobia, child genital mutilation, the suppression of females, I didn't think much of Hitler, I don't agree with that bloke who's top banana of that Christian church banning contraception so leading to millions dying of AIDS...and all of these I'd be supporting if I joined up.

I'll quote Steven Weinberg "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.”

Well I don't support a lot of that either, nor do I support popular atheist politically correct views, the promotion of 'do whatever thou wilt being the whole of the law' to quote a popular satanist view from the thirties and forties, nor do I support the active promotion of homosexuality as a lifestyle choice, or free sex for everyone in the classroom a la female teacher sacked just recently, each to our own, but it ducks the point I'm making, which is being an Atheist is just as bad as being a God botherer to those of us who really could give a **** about what you are or think and just want to get on with our lives without having any of it thrust down our throats, or our kids bought up to some artificially made up set of values to suit current trends and fads.
The Christian Religion for all it's faults tells a fairy tale like Father Christmas to kids to give a reasonable set of guidelines by which to conduct yourself, which as soon as you're old enough you can choose as most of us do, to totally ignore.
Islam on the other hand is a far more dangerous outfit and should be fought, not taught at every turn (my opinion sorry you won't change it by arguing with me).
Atheism is total bollox and achieves nothing, so is no more than pointless posturing on behalf of pseuds, who gives a **** if you don't believe anything, we don't care what you think.

Agnosticism as I said is what we all are simply because we don't know, no-one knows how can they we don't really even know what gravity really is or how electricity is generated by magnetism, what force gives that power exactly?

All are beliefs to a degree, but only the latter has any logic to get you through all this, so wait and see, sooner or later we're all going to find out, or not.

Buddism by the way is a branch of the Hindu religion which if you had to pick one would probably be my choice being as all encompassing as it is and accepting.

The Christian Religion for all it's faults tells a fairy tale like Father Christmas to kids to give a reasonable set of guidelines by which to conduct yourself

Drown animals who don't do as they're told, slavery is ok, stone your daughter to death if she won't marry her racist.

Good people were banned for less argumentative behaviour than this thread.

Sad, really.

Lots of churchgoing athiests of that generation Mike.
Breaking social taboos wasn't as easy.

They both temporarily moved to New Zealand in the 50's - my aunt wrote to her sister to describe a party they had been to and the different nationalities of guests they'd met.
She received a reply imploring her to come home asap 😀 .

I genuinely despise the church's attitude towards homosexuality and predjudice, but as I'm sure you're aware what happens 'on the ground' sometimes bears little relation to the official line.

And what the official line is is often different than what appears in the dail mail. Remember that the vote on women bishops wasn't defeated by the 'officials' of the church who were very much in favour but rather by the house of laity (spelling?) who are selected from amongst the 'ordinary' members of the church and are meant to represent them but rarely do.

Keep it up, I like the way this is all going now.

nor do I support popular atheist politically correct views,

There's no such thing "atheist politically correct views," just people's politically correct views. Atheism isn't a political party.

nor do I support the active promotion of homosexuality as a lifestyle choice,

There is no "active promotion of homosexuality." No-one is going around shouting "have you tried being gay? It's ace, join us!"

Also, it is not a lifestyle choice, any more than being male or brown is.

being an Atheist is just as bad as being a God botherer to those of us who really could give a **** about what you are or think and just want to get on with our lives without having any of it thrust down our throats

No-one thrust this thread down your throat, you actively chose to read it.

which as soon as you're old enough you can choose as most of us do, to totally ignore.

Really? That kid that died recently in the UK from having his foreskin hacked off at his Christian parents request can chose when he's old enough?

All are beliefs to a degree...

Atheism is not a belief (to [u]any[/u] degree), it's the polar opposite.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Good people were banned for less argumentative behaviour than this thread.

Sad, really.

Grow up and stop behaving like a petulant child.

Oooh, touchy. 🙂

Grow up and stop behaving like a petulant child.

+1 This thread has been far from argumentative, especially considering the emotive topic. Even Mr W has been relatively unargumentative 🙂

Also, did CFH just question a moderation decision? 😉

You were banned for acting like this:

as far as I'm aware.

Complain to the mods if you have a problem instead of coming on here and taking it out on others.

Was I referring to me being banned? No. Just that this topic has been hammered over so often it's rather dull, IMHO. I assume I am allowed to make such a comment. It's dull. You may disagree, but I wanted to state my opinion.

igrf - Member

All are beliefs to a degree

Atheism is a belief in the same way that not throwing a javelin is a sport.