[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8573006.stm ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8573006.stm[/url]
For: "It is difficult to manage demand and meet expectations in that changing context."
Read: This may create work for us to do
Is it me or is the civil service / Local government officials becoming even more bone idle?!
LOL, they would fall over and die in the private sector. I'm glad they are trying to shake things up.
What are tehy supposed to do? Where do they find more land for allotments? Brownfield won't do - so dismantle some parks?
What are tehy supposed to do?
No you're right, there is NOTHING they can do. Well apart from putting the kettle on and arguing over who's turn it is to buy the chocolate hobnobs.
TandemJeremy - MemberWhat are tehy supposed to do? Where do they find more land for allotments? Brownfield won't do - so dismantle some parks?
Plenty of councils hold land in charitable trust which they often will not release unless its to sell to developers (Dartford is a case in point)City councils sometimes struggle with land but why not a corner of a larger park.......Oh wait TJ you're not a council 'worker' by any chance?
So your proposing the council digs up the local park because a few muppets have spent too long in front of the telly watching Jamie Oliver?
It sounds more like "people decide they want an allotment, moan slot until they get one, then discover it's hard work and are never seen or heard from again"
what are they supposed to do? Plan for a supply of allotments that are going to lie unused?
What are tehy supposed to do? Where do they find more land for allotments? Brownfield won't do - so dismantle some parks?
Easy, they buy a chunk of local field. They're for sale all over the show and farmers will often love the chance to be rid of some of the worst bits of their estate for a reasonable sum. The hard part is paying for it.
Or they could start forcing home builders to produce houses with decent sized rooms and decent sized gardens, THEN we might see peopel using their own gardens.
No you're right, what we should do is assume the worst and therefore do nothing. 🙄
A farmers field is no use - people want the allotments in an urban area. Brownfield is no use - the land is no good for growing. Want more allotments - dig up urban parks
A farmers field is no use - people want the allotments in an urban area
I know of a fair few allotments on the edges of farmers fields, not smack bang in the centre of a city/town. People have to compromise, if that means a short bus journey to their allotment, tough.
they would fall over and die in the private sector
They certainly would if they listened to some of you guys. It seems that you're suggesting the strategic equivalent of buying for stock.... commercial suicide for any business.
And really..... in this cliamte of budget deficit does the public purse need to stretch any further??
Out of interest, why can't they use brownfield sites?
coffeeking is on the money....
Id never buy a modern house in this country.
Shite build quality , shite room sizing , shite garden , overpriced.
Shouldnt need allotments if you have a garden !
Councils are bad at understanding demand and differentiating between short and long term trend. My guess would be that this is a short term trend driven by current economic climate which will probably disappear as economy picks up. Would be pretty easy to predict a situation where you've made 10 allotments available, only 2 get properly used long term and you've lost the use of a decent chunk of land and those 2 allotments end up costing the C Tax payer a couple of grand a year
. It seems that you're suggesting the strategic equivalent of buying for stock.... commercial suicide for any business.
Not really buying for stock if there are, by all accounts, a waiting list of 100,000 people ready to use it, unless it's just a case of we currently have 100000 spare slots and no-one can be arsed to sort out the paperwork.
My guess would be that this is a short term trend driven by current economic climate which will probably disappear as economy picks up.
No, they were moaning about it [demand and lack of supply] in the "boom" time too.
It seems that you're suggesting the strategic equivalent of buying for stock.... commercial suicide for any business.
No, its supply and demand. Demand far outstrips supply in the majority of areas. Its quite simple.
Where is the 100,000 demand??
Coffeeking - brownfield land will be poor for growing - no nutrients, quite possibly contaminated, packed hard.
It could be made into decent land for growing on but would take a lot of investment
this is certainly the situation in Edinburgh
It sounds more like "people decide they want an allotment, moan slot until they get one, then discover it's hard work and are never seen or heard from again"
what are they supposed to do? Plan for a supply of allotments that are going to lie unused?
I think that is very unfair - almost every allotment space I have seen is always well tended and all spaces actively used and (at least in the area I live) there is a huge waiting list for plots.
I can't see how it would take a lot of investment when the forestry commision, mining companies and councils have been doing it for years by the simple application of compost with proven results.
It could be made into decent land for growing on but would take a lot of investment
Err, don't you just hand it over to allotment space and then the people who get plots prepare the land?
Or is that to obvious a solution?
Or is that to obvious a solution?
Working for the council isn't about finding solutions, its about presenting problems! Do you not know how this works?
No, because then you'll get the headlines "Council give poisoned land to taxpayers" with a picture of some sickly looking kid holding a carrot.
Coffeeking - brownfield land will be poor for growing - no nutrients, quite possibly contaminated, packed hard.It could be made into decent land for growing on but would take a lot of investment
It's pretty standard practice to rip off the surface, dispose of it and replace the topsoil when developing any brownfield site? Sure it's not "heres a field, get on with it" but it's cheaper than buying a field and it's in locations people want them.
No, because then you'll get the headlines "Council give poisoned land to taxpayers"
Not if you a) dont use heavily contaminated land and b) clear the surface first. It's common sense and done day in day out for normal development.
Who is going to want to try to make an allotment on contaminated land with no topsoil?
Its one thing to grow trees or grass that no one will eat - its completely another to try to grow veg.
It takes several years to get land in good condition for growing veg and a lot of time and money if the lands previous life was under a factory
And as far as I know it's a cost normally born by the developer (which their wouldn't be in this case, unless it's part of some other reciprocal agreement that would take time and a willing partner)
I want the pot holes fixed first.
So there is a current fad for growing your own produce..... what other waiting lists do local councils have to deal with that are far more worthy of my the tax that we pay?
Onoe day people on here are saying privatise everything let free market economics sort it out..... the next you want local authorities to give people the chance to have a go at growing their own veg.
I'd be interested to know how many allotment owners already have the space in their own back yards to grow some veg? Can't see the flat dwelling 20 somethings being desperate to spend their spare time up to their elbows in manure.
If you're a tax payer, you really don't want to encourage the Council to go down the contaminated land route on this, it's massively expensive just finding out what's wrong (if anything) with the land, let alone getting it fixed.
Can't see the flat dwelling 20 somethings being desperate to spend their spare time up to their elbows in manure.
I'm a flat dwelling 20 something and trying to find a house with a garden so I can, and several of my 20 something flat dwelling friends are the same.
I'm not bothered about allotments personally, I'd never use one anyway, but I think it's a good idea to promote such things, especially within the community who can't afford much on their benefits and who otherwise eat a pile of junk. It's hardly a huge dent in the public coffers for quite a few benefits for several generations. But I don't expect everyone to see past the "I want some land to grow for fun" shortsightedness.
If you're a tax payer, you really don't want to encourage the Council to go down the contaminated land route on this, it's massively expensive just finding out what's wrong (if anything) with the land, let alone getting it fixed.
We're talking relative costs here, and buying prime-development land and providing reasonable bus services out of town comes in significantly higher I suspect. While I'm not in the business of altering the land, I'm aware of someone who is and who does this day in day out as their bread and butter, and while it adds a percentage, it's not a massive percentage from what I hear.
Coffeking you need to get more things to do with your life. Why grow your own when supermarkets are even willing to cut veg up for you these days?
I blame Fathcher!
Yeti
You raise some interesting points but the fact is this not additional expenditure on the public purse but land holdings already in public ownership. Councils could reuse old palisade fencing etc to secure areas, the councils I'm involved with have yards full of stuff going to waste which could easily be utilised. Its more about councils being more imaginative which is the real issue here!
As for the question of 'fad' how long does a 'fad' have to last before it becomes common place? This mountain biking 'fad' appears to be going on some time, but I was told that the trails I had built in N.Ireland in the 90's were a waste of time as mountain biking was yet another 'fad'
Who is going to want to try to make an allotment on contaminated land with no topsoil?
I don't know - perhaps give people the opportunity to make it work rather than assume they couldn't be arsed?
Coffeking you need to get more things to do with your life. Why grow your own when supermarkets are even willing to cut veg up for you these days?
I've plenty to do thanks 😀 I'm not biting at that you vacuous troll! 😀
allotments are good and it would be nice to have more - however there are clear practical difficulties in providing more.
Either parks get turned into allotments, the council tax payer has to pay to create them on brownfield sites or they are created a long way from where people live.
councils can have massive inertia and be slow bureaucratic monsters. However On this one the whingers simply have not thought it thru
MF - have you any idea the amount of work involved? Ever grown your own veg?
Loving the generalisations on this thread btw.
MF - have you any idea the amount of work involved? Ever grown your own veg?
I'm doing it in window boxes at the moment, it's ace, they're pretty much growing themselves 'n' everything after I planted the seeds! My mushrooms are taking some more effort, they need constant lack of care and attention and a bit of moisture.
CK..... that was about as tongue in cheek as I could manage!
I blame Thatcher for everything!
Can't stand the woman, and we're hardly in the middle of a city, but this works quite well around here.
http://www.incredible-edible-todmorden.co.uk/
Saw her on the TV the other day 'gorilla' gardening...... 😆
CK..... that was about as tongue in cheek as I could manage!
😀 I almost replied in a rant, then realised and chuckled into my coffee, glad I spotted it before ranting back 🙂
MF - have you any idea the amount of work involved? Ever grown your own veg?
TJs own special line of condescension.
🙄
Answer MF - have you gown your own veg in reasonable quantities? Made good soil from bad? Do you know what is involved?
Does it matter whats involved? The fact that people do it on a regular basis means that you are able to do it.
If everyone gave up from day one because something was involved and might need some hard work then we would still be living in caves. 🙄
Err yes thanks Jeremy - I have grown my own vegetables as well as spending my childhood helping my father with his vegetable plot. So I reckon on approximately 35 years experience of growing fruit and vegetables with around a 10 year gap in the middle when I couldn't be arsed.
Does that help?
if people have a problem with their local council why not stand up to be a councilor
instead of coming on here and bitching!
if people have a problem with their local council why not stand up to be a councilor
I don't have the right amount of anal retentiveness.
Fair enough then MF - you should know how difficult it would be to take a brownfield site and make it into productive land for growing food.
Hainey - thats the point - I was talking about brownfield site where this is not done often as its a long and hard process
Whats hard?
Turn it over, check the ph level, add some organic, inorganic fertilizer, organic matter as required, check ph again. Add seasoning to taste. Done.
you should know how difficult it would be to take a brownfield site and make it into productive land for growing food.
And that goes back to my original (if somewhat simplistic idea for a solution) - why not let the people who want a plot prepare the plot? Councils could supply advice and basic materials even - many plots that I see have raised beds anyway - even if the site was brownfield, then it would take little effort to create raised beds with a geotextile membrane (such as the sort used in landfill and contaminated land) beneath and simply fill with topsoil/fertiliser etc.
the council could easliy add a condition on any large development planning permission (section 106 IIRC) that requires that an appropriate local facility is created, it's just they rather squeeze the developer to subsidise a bus route, road widening etc. Brownfield sites can be remediated in most cases and it is better done properly rather than by a bunch of amateurs doing it piecemeal. In most cases I imagine it would be a "scrape and replace"
councils are also under a lot of pressure to identify land for housing devlopments which goes into their planning policy. GB's obsession with the need to build "affordable" homes for the rapidly increasing population in England means they can't afford to "lose" sites to allotments in urban areas. The reality is that house building has collasped and will only start again very slowly. Still doesn't get your allotment though.
There are allotments at the end of my road. The buggers are constantly lighting bonfires to burn the crap they just grew and smoke wafts down the street because they can't be bothered to take account of weather conditions. I'd be much happier if someone built apartments there instead.
(Does this make me a little Englander or not TJ?)
to burn the crap they just grew
LOL
Most cities already have reasonably fertile green spaces which could be turned into allotments with little effort. They tend to be fenced off, or behind high walls, so there is also a degree of privacy and security. They also cost councils a lot of money on upkeep and maintenance.
You'd have to get someone to dispose of the gravestones though.
Druidh - and the doggers / cottagers would have to go elsewhere then
TJ - I wouldn't know about these things,but (as usual) you are plainly an expert....
zing!!!
I went for a walk round warriston cemetery - it was a little disturbing. It took me a while to work out why all these men where hanging around.
I think Hugh FW has a campaign going to use up unused growing space - people identify spaces to grow the seed then get permission to grow the seed and them people go and grow the seed....
Anyway, not sure what the councils have done wrong here - is it cost effective? If so let the private sector buy land to rent out as allotments - if it's worth doing they'll treat brownfield sites too and charge more.
I thought 'nature grows the seed'?
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Oh yeah - that's why I fail in my growing.
Actually I'm slowly digging up more and more of my garden to grow stuff in - this year could be good - if we get enough sun anyway.