[Closed] Council recommendation ...... Speechless

This has been happening for quite a few years.

And it's only when that tenant becomes homeless that the council have to act. So you see why they do it.

I knew it happened never realised the council actually advised people to do it.

A tenant in one of my fathers properties was given the same advise 30years ago. Some things never change.
The tenant in question sounds a decent person, loads would just take the councils advise.

It wasn't the council who suggested that ploy, it was a sympathetic left-leaning local government employee.

....and moved out back to her parents.

If the tenant had such a simple and straightforward solution why did she bother the council and waste their time ?

.

it was a sympathetic left-leaning local government employee.

How do you know it wasn't a sympathetic right-leaning local government employee who thought the council shouldn't be paying her rent and would rather see her kicked out ?

If the tenant had such a simple and straightforward solution why did she bother the council and waste their time ?

Moving back in with your parents is sometimes far from simple and straightforward! There's many a night I've went somewhere quiet and slept in the van rather than face the parents.

This didn't sound very problematic :

[i]"Luckily the tenant was a decent person and said that was just plain wrong and moved out back to her parents"[/i]

Erie l ..... I do not know the full story so refrain from making assumptions about how easy a solution was, I do know her parents live in a 1 bedroom flat and have health issues oh it is also about 6 miles or 2 bus journeys from her daughters school. Like I say I will refrain from making assumptions but it does not sound an easy solution to me

ignoring the politics and us all just saying whether we are left or right wing that still remains the best advice for that person as it would give her a few mths of not being homeless in order to sort it out

Morally you/we may disapprove and the person is free to what they like with the advice but it is the best way of avoiding being homeless in the short run.

I suspect they also mentioned moving in with friends, staying with family and some other choices in order to let the person choose.
I would say they were doing their job by explaining the options to the customer

It may be the best way of them not being homeless have you considered the landlord who may rely on the rent to pay the mortgage on the place... What advice do we give them when they go to the bank and say sorry cant afford the mortgage for a bit the tenant can not afford the rent.

Kill off buy to let scam or at least make a limit on how much you can charge for rent like they do in Sweden. Maybe.

have you considered the landlord who may rely on the rent to pay the mortgage on the place

As i said whether you or I like it or not it is still the best advice for the tenant.

What advice do we give them when they go to the bank and say sorry cant afford the mortgage for a bit the tenant can not afford the rent.

Which do you think needs the most help even if you are sympathetic to both?

Not that it has much to do with the op but is there not already a limit on rent ? You can only charge what people are willing to pay.

What does ' the buy to let scam' have to do with the council advice?

What advice do we give them when they go to the bank and say sorry cant afford the mortgage for a bit the tenant can not afford the rent.

I would advise them to look for more stable investments, if you purchase on a buy to let mortgage, and are dependent on every monthly rent payment to keep your head above water, then you have made a very bad investment judgement.

MSP ... Again with the assumption, never said they bought it on buy to let. Even if it was does that make the council advice right?

Aye. Something similar happened to me, tennant went to shelter when we issued eviction notices after no rent for three months. Shelter told him just to squat as legally we couldnt do that. Pretty sure he didnt mention to them about not paying the rent..

If its not buy to let, why can the mortgage payments not be paid on it if rental payments are missed? If it's on a standard mortgage then they will be breaking the terms of the mortgage and would be committing fraud.

As JY said, while it would be better for the situation not to exist, preventing homelessness should be a higher priority than protecting bad investments.

As someone who just evicted a tenant for non-payment of rent, it is a kicker.
5 months it took, all with no rent paid. I also knew that for the last 6 weeks they were living elsewhere, just left all the junk and crap and belongings at our flat.
Again, we know that Perth and Kinross Council were suggesting to them that this was 'OK' and the 'done thing', and I even had a phone call from council asking me to stop calling the tenant and asking for my rent or when he would move out, as it could be seen as threatening. 🙄
Court, here we come.

MSP what does the mortgage 'product' have to do with anything?

Not all rental properties were bought as an investment. Protecting homelessness buy punishing someone else? really?

MSP what does the mortgage 'product' have to do with anything?

Well you were the first to raise it

What advice do we give them when they go to the bank and say sorry cant afford the mortgage for a bit the tenant can not afford the rent.

Not all rental properties were bought as an investment. Protecting homelessness buy punishing someone else? really?

So what is it, it sounds like they are making a profit from it when all go's well, but when it goes wrong the expect the general public via the council, to cover their losses.

If that's not the case, you perhaps should explain the details a little better.

with the assumption, never said they bought it on buy to let. Even if it was does that make the council advice right?

Not sure why you cannot see both points/sides here tbh.

Junkyard I was talking hypothetically with regard to affording the mortgage based upon assumption you were making. With regard your other point of whom is most in need again you are making assumption because I made naff all reverence to my friends financial position

MSP I think you will find I said ' may rely on the rent to pay the mortgage' ie a discussion in general terms rather than specifically related to my friend in the original post. How you can interpret any of my posts into that ' making a profit from it' bit is nothing short of magical

Junkyard... My surprise at the councils advice has nothing to do with a tenants or landlords circumstance or how indeed they found themselves in the situation. My surprise is that the council would openly advise a tenant to stay in a property they can not pay rent on which may put the landlord in financial difficulty, advice given by a council with no knowledge or regard for a landlords circumstances ..... It is wrong

With regard your other point of whom is most in need again you are making assumption

again they are not advising the landlord - would a financial adviser or solicitor advising the landlord take in the tenants needs ?

I have explained why the council did it you dont agree. Fine
Thread endeth I assume

And just as an an aside MSP referring to one of your earlier post not all rental property is buy to let whether it is the case now or not if you had a mortgage and had lived in the property for a period of time you could move out and rent the property out under your existing mortgage with permission from the lender.

Junkyard ... Yes you are where did I say my friend had another property? Had a quick check and I can't see where I said that

If I paid a solicitor of financial advisor I would expect advise that would be in my interest has a council not got a duty of care to everyone not just the tenant?

Ok my mistake he rents a house out and sleeps on the streets,there needs are equal, and the council are bastards

has a council not got a duty of care to everyone not just the tenant?

No, providing housing services is something that falls under the councils remit. Providing investment advice isn't.

you could move out and rent the property out under your existing mortgage with permission from the lender.

They will only allow up to something like a month usually, as a transition period. Buy to let is seen as an investment loan and a higher risk than a standard mortgage, lenders expect to take their share, they don't give away their profits for no reason.

MSP I think you will find I said ' may rely on the rent to pay the mortgage' ie a discussion in general terms rather than specifically related to my friend in the original post. How you can interpret any of my posts into that ' making a profit from it' bit is nothing short of magical

I quoted what you said here it is again.

What advice do we give them when they go to the bank and say sorry cant afford the mortgage for a bit the tenant can not afford the rent.

I didn't realise he was renting the house out at a loss, as you didn't mention it. But I am not sure what advice you expect the council could give that would resolve his problems if that is the case.

MSP I used to have a rental property many years ago that was rented out under the original mortgage for years, it was done when I went to work abroad I was told I would only have to change to buy to let if I was to remortgage. It was not an investment I could not afford to sell . Not all rental properties are investments.

It may be the best way of them not being homeless have you considered the landlord who may rely on the rent to pay the mortgage on the place... What advice do we give them when they go to the bank and say sorry cant afford the mortgage for a bit the tenant can not afford the rent.

Clearly you'd advise them to discuss a mortgage holiday or perhaps I/O option with the bank.

As JY says, the council will advise the person stood in front of them. Their advice to a landlord about to loose their only home? Stay put and wait for the bank to repossess. Exactly the same scenario, no? No council would advise someone to make themselves homeless.

I would expect the council not to give advise that may lead another party into financial difficulties.

Rich same scenario yes (ish) I don't really agree with that either in general terms (I'm not talking specific cases or scenarios)

Actually I would expect a council to run through the scenarios ie if you don't pay the land lord could evict and it may take this long etc I would not expect them to actively promote that action as was the case in my friends situation ( based upon the tenants story)

I said that earlier - perhaps some of the advice included moving in with parents - I would be surprised if they did not provide a number of options

An adviser advises the person in front of them of the best thing FOR THEM. What other point is there in seeing an advisor? They dont advise what will be best for someone else not there and not asking them. It matters not whether the adviser is a solicitor, a financial adviser or a council worker it matters not one jot. I dont know why you are struggling with this concept.

And if the outcome is a eviction court case and a judgement against the tenant for arrears, they lose too. But the local authority delays the tenant needing housing, so they benefit.

Probably for the same reason you struggle to see mine

Good point so is it in the tenants best interest to get further into arrears is the council looking after their own interest not the tenants?

Probably for the same reason you struggle to see mine

Your position is equally uncomplicated to understand as is my [ and others]explanation.
I do struggle to see why you cannot grasp this concept despite numerous posters explaining it to you in a number of different ways.

I suspect you will keep going till someone agrees with you

Good luck

No don't mind if anyone agrees or not it's my opinion, people have others , you made assumptions to justify yours then deployed your handbag when I pointed it out.
I have dinner to cook so I can't carry on with the lovely chat I will come and give you a kiss and a cuddle if it will make you feel any better.

I think if you read my reply then read your reply its not difficult to work out which of us is getting emotive and "handbaggy"

You? Do I win a prize?

I think you need three opinions no one else agrees with before you can join DENSA 😉

Chatting to a friend who rents out a property.... The tenant has fallen on tough times and can not pay the rent, the tenant went to the council housing place to see if there was anything they could do/advise. She was informed the best course of action was to stay in the property even if she could not pay the rent and just not answer the door if the landlord came around for the rent, she was told it would take months to get her out and hopefully that would give her time to sort things for her and her daughter.

So obviously the tennant is working, and was able to pay her rent, but due to probbaly wasting money on non essentials she got behind on the rent, Housing Benefit could have been claimed, if the house or flat was deemed suitable for her by the council and fullfiled the required rental costs criteria, eg 2 bedrooms, if the child is over a certain age, or the rent is no higher than the maximum rent the council pay in HB.

Probably the person she saw was a benefits rights advisor,some who are excellent and some who believe its their money theyre paying out and dont offer much help.

Make an official complaint to the council and get them to investigate.

Ps how do you like your daughter living at home

I have dinner to cook so I can't carry on with the lovely chat ....

But on the plus side lastuphills you orginally started off by claiming that the council's recommendations had left you "speechless". It's now clear after almost 5 hours of you banging on about it that you've managed to get over your initial speechlessness.

The only surprising thing, considering how strongly you clearly feel about the whole incident, is how vague you appear to be concerning with what the council should have [i]actually[/i] done to help resolve the situation, why is that ?

Which do you think needs the most help even if you are sympathetic to both?

Maybe the landlord ? If/when I inherit from my parents I intend to buy a small buy to let place as it`s the only way I will be able to provide some form of pension for myself

I'd guess there's slightly more to it than the third hand version we're hearing here. Another thing to consider is that the council may not be under any obligation to rehouse people who are not homeless or who have made themselves voluntarily homeless. Thus, to qualify for rehousing help, the tenant may have to wait for enforcement of an eviction order. Tough on the landlord, but that's the way it's been for years.

I've needed to move bad tenants on before now, I look at the cost of lost rent, courts, eviction and enforcement. Add them up, think of a smaller number I'd rather pay and offer up to that amount to the tenant to clear off and put it in writing that they abandon the tenancy. Hasn't failed yet.

I intend to buy a small buy to let place as it`s the only way I will be able to provide some form of pension for myself

Thus, to qualify for rehousing help, the tenant may have to wait for enforcement of an eviction order. Tough on the landlord, but that's the way it's been for years.

Your solutions, whilst not the best possible outcome [ for that is them paying] is a probably the best outcome in the situation

Well see what happens when you pop away for a minute

Project ... Assumption and wrong
Earnie l .... Because I have no idea what the council should have advised I never claimed to have the answers, I have an opinion about what they should not have advised though. Maybe you can think of one that does not potentially involve a landlord losing lots of money. Banging on about it....ah you mean responding to other people's comments on a forum. Speechless ...have you heard me speak?

Junkyard.....I might be offended by that if I wasn't so thick.

Well if if your pension pot is not more important than being homelessness then what is

Because without the 400 quid or so in the future all I will have is the state pension .So it would be rather important to stop me being homeless !

Speechless ...have you heard me speak?

A very good point, no I haven't.

Are you claiming that the council employee's advise has left you speechless but that you can still communicate via posts on an mtb forum ?

Yes....is there a proper medical term how about singletrackism. Seems to happen a lot on this forum

Do you think I should request an edit to the thread title.

Maybe you can think of one that does not potentially involve a landlord losing lots of money.

We all can, the person becomes homeless but that is probably not the best advice for THEM.

Because without the 400 quid or so in the future all I will have is the state pension* .So it would be rather important to stop me being homeless !

* technically t he state pension is less but their is a minimum income guarantee whose name i forget

Yes....is there a proper medical term

Dumbstruck ?

I'm not sure how common it is with regular forum users though - all the ones I've met seemed not to have lost the power of speech. Quite the opposite in fact.

Junkyard..I have a question and this is from curiosity without any agenda, is staying in the house without paying rent essentially illegal, hence the grounds for eviction? So if an individual advised it as the tenants best course of action, is that not being complicit in breaking the law?

I have thought of another question.....that bit about the tenant running up further debt/arrears because of the advise received but still becoming homeless, could a tenant not sue the council. Basically saying all you did was delay me becoming homeless due to a vested interest (ie not having to deal with me until I become officially homeless) thus costing me x amount of arrears.

So now you want the tenant to sue the council ? I'm speechless.

Earnie l .....do you write for the daily mail? You would do well there.

I have thought of another question.....that bit about the tenant running up further debt/arrears because of the advise received but still becoming homeless, could a tenant not sue the council.

The person can sue for what ever they like.

I don't write [i]for[/i] the Daily Mail, but I regularly write [i]to[/i] the Daily Mail. To express my outrage.

But you read the daily mail ?

The tenant has fallen on tough times and can not pay the rent

you read the daily mail ?

How else am I going to be kept informed of vital information such as the news that swarms of vicious Asian hornets are massing at the other side of the Channel ready to invade us and kill our lovable indigenous hardworking honey bees ?

[url= http://www.****/sciencetech/article-2411944/Asian-hornets-head-Britain-Public-warned-swarms-deliver-vicious-sting-coming-English-Channel.html?ito=feeds-newsxml ]Asian hornets head for Britain: Public warned swarms which deliver vicious sting are coming across the Channel[/url]

Thought the voices in your head kept you informed

I think the council are obliged to advise the tenant that they have the legal right to remain in the property until lawfully evicted . They are obliged not to advise the tenant with an eye to maximising a small businessmans profit. The small businessman has a number of solutions to this problem including insurance taking the appropriate bond and lodging it with the relevant agency factoring the expected expenses into his rental charges etc. Who should take the hit for a profit making landlord not understanding his market the landlord or the ratepayers?

I like this bit of first class investigative journalism in the Daily Fail article

Asian hornets were first recorded in Lot-et-Garonne, south-west France, in 2005, after arriving in a pottery shipment from China.
They spread across France but until now were blocked from coming to the UK by the English Channel.

Lets stereotype landlords because they are all like that......be terrible to suffer from stereotyping wouldn't it crank boy why don't you try the tenant who can't pay their rent see what you come up with.

Lots here seem to want to side with the tenant who cant pay ? Lifes a bitch there is nothing wrong with being a landlord .As I have said before it might be the landlords only income or the money may be a small pension .There is nothing wrong with owning property and renting it as a business .The rental return on capital invested per property is actually quite small about 6 to 10 % gross if you watch the doing houses up type telly

Most folk are explaining why the council said what they said. I think everyone is sympathetic to both parties but most would agree the about to be homeless person is at the greatest need rather than the own a house and rent person.
I would imagine a tenant not paying is a risk any landlord would factor in to their calculations.

Re the council my understanding is that it is breach of contract between tenant and landlord - and this has already occurred so they are giving advice on what is best to do at this point. As noted they do not legally need to vacate till served notice etc.
If the tenant could pay and was paying and they advised them to stop then a legal case could possibly be made by the person who received the advice and /or the landlord.
I doubt a case against the adviser/council would get very far personally.

Lots here seem to want to side with the tenant who cant pay ?

I haven't noticed anyone siding with the tenant, never mind lots. Some people have suggested why a council employee might have advised the tenant not to make themselves intentionally homeless, is that what you mean ?

Junkyard ... I think it is wrong use the better/worse off as a basis for comparison, my issue is not with the council explaining the possible scenarios my issue is with what I was told, that the advisor actively encouraged the tenant to remain without paying rent. You are using an example to demonstrate your view, what happens if the landlord had to relocate to find work and now rents a room in a shared house, he needs the rent to cover the mortgage on the rental, his wage just covers his expenses. The tenant remaining in his place now means he loses 3 months rent add in legal fees etc he now can't meet his expenses and is going to be made homeless, the bank doesn't get their money so are going to reposes sticking him with a massive debt (the neg equity), meanwhile the tenant is evicted and rehoused the landlord can't get housed because he is bottom of the pile .....who is worse off? Yep mine is only an example of a possible scenario as is yours.

Obviously the tenant owes the landlord money . The debt increases as the tenant remains. That still does not alter the fact that the council advise was spot on and unsurprising.

It surprised me. That said I still think it is wrong to encourage staying in the place without paying, I also think it is wrong it takes 'months' to evict a tenant who can not/ will not pay the rent.

The idea is to prevent the social ill of homeless people on the streets and the old problem of tenants being locked out without notice by landlords who then sold all the tenants worldly goods at a fraction of their value to recover a couple of weeks rent.

it is wrong to encourage staying in the place without paying

They advised and that is the best course of action for them - that is the Truth.
I am not sure that means it is encouragement - I doubt they were there doing high pressure sales techniques to get them to do this shouting
[img] [/img]

Crank ... A valid reason for the principle, but it puts the burdon onto the landlord. Not all landlords fit your stereotype, some rent through necessity and would struggle to meet that burdon. In the same vain not all tenants who do not pay the rent are down on their luck some play the system. Taking 5 months or whatever in my view protects the tenant too much to the detriment of the landlord. A council advising a tenant to actively play the system (in my opinion ) is wrong

I also think it is wrong it takes 'months' to evict a tenant who can not/ will not pay the rent.

But that's how the situation is.

Presumably you would have been much happier if the council employee had misinformed the tenant and falsely told her that if she didn't pay her rent she would be out on the street before the end of the week ?