So have you ever heard of Mary Secole? a figure at least as important as Nightingale.
As for some ‘conspiracy’ to devalue the achievements of black Britons,
Who claimed there was a conspiracy?
have you heard of Mary Seacole?
She featured in the recent Dr Who series
have you herd of Florence Nightingale? I am sure you have but have you heard of Mary Seacole – at least as important a person
That's possible because Nightingale was a toff, you probably haven't heard of Betsy Cadwaladr either and she was white. Just saying there may be more to it than colour.
I am trying to make a simple point to i scoff cake.
the reasons black history is useful are manyfold. a key point is to give figures like Seacole their rightful place in history.
Race is a concept invented in the 17th century as the Age of Enlightenment begins. It’s then given a lot more valency by so-called scientific racism in the 19th century.
Does that make it older than Britain then (1707)?
So Britain has always existed in a world that recognised race / racism?
@igm - The 'final form' of the UK may have come about in 1707 but the history of Britain is generally thought to go back to antiquity. The archaeology of Britain is even older.
The British isles are older, the British people are also older, the Scots older but not by as much, the English people too are older but again by less.
The country is pretty recent. (I’m not sure the archeology enslaved anyone or recognised race.)
Anyway let’s stick to easy questions.
Do we approve of slavery?
In that approval or disapproval, do we care who is enslaving whom?
Should we put statues up to great slavers?
If they are already up should they a) be removed, b) kept as they are, c) kept but with modifications to contextualise the individual and be clear about what they did good and bad, or d) something else?
For me
No,
No,
No, and
c)
I know lots of folk enslaved lots of other folk. I don’t approve of any of it.
So black people were only invented in the 17th century?
Was this because prior to that everyone was always covered in mud, so it was difficult to tell?
so I scoff cake - had you heard of Seacole?
TJ - for the record. I hadn’t. In my defence I’m pretty hazy on Florence Nightingale beyond having heard the name.
Not sure that’s a defence
This is the simple point. Nightingale is venerated and seen as a huge influence but Seacole is not despite what in many eyes is at least as notable a contribution
so I scoff cake – had you heard of Seacole?
Yes, I already addressed that and the controversy over her 'importance', particularly her autobiography.
If they are already up should they a) be removed, b) kept as they are, c) kept but with modifications to contextualise the individual and be clear about what they did good and bad
To what end? Without using google, can you name many of the significant street names, statues and monuments which memorialise someone in your city or town? Yet, supposedly, because some represent 'bad' people they exert some magic mind control over you? Just walking past a Colston statue, for example, could turn someone into a racist right? Unless of course, the 'ward' of a contextualising plaque is present?
Do we approve of slavery?
It was a norm long long time ago but has the practice been totally eradicated? Sex slave?
I do not approve of such practice but I cannot change the past/history.
In that approval or disapproval, do we care who is enslaving whom?
Enslaving is wrong regardless. Well, in my Buddhist belief anyway.
Should we put statues up to great slavers?
There were put there at a time where the society and belief were different.
Instead of using brute force to remove them, people can get a vote to decide what should be done or simply put a signage up explaining the disapproval of their past involvement.
If they are already up should they a) be removed, b) kept as they are, c) kept but with modifications to contextualise the individual and be clear about what they did good and bad, or d) something else?
Ans: C
So black people were only invented in the 17th century?
Actually kind of yes. From southern Europe through the middle east down through Africa there's loads of ethnic groups. "Black" as a classification is closely linked to European colonialism and the slave trade. And it has no existence in genetics/anthropology/science outside social science. Not to in any way invalidate it, but it is a recent invention.
i scoff cake - so do you think Seacole has been given her rightful place in history?
there is a really simple lesson here if you want to learn it
but it is a recent invention.
In geologic times perhaps but its several hundred years old at least
It was a norm long long time ago but has the practice been totally eradicated?
Quite the opposite. Around 40 million people are estimated to be in slavery right now. Iirc it's more than at any point in human history.
Comparing the Atlantic slacer trade with any other form of 'slavery' is rationalisation at its most obscene.
If the kind of 'slavery' you are talking about doesn't conform in its entirety to the level of brutalisation and dehumanization, the severing of all familial, cultural, religious and linguistic ties and wholesale murder that the Atlantic slave trade entailed then stop making the comparison.
Or in other words, kindly shut your cake hole...
Doesn’t that prove the point?
No. Could 4 young, white middle ish class people prove a direct harm to them from colston participating int the slave trade?
Even if you accept their argument that the statue is indecent, which they didn not prove, there are lawful and legal remedies for that. Lets say that you accept that argument. They could have covered it with a tarp and ceased the harm caused by it's indecency. Like painting over graffiti. However the symbolic dragging it thought he streets damaging the pavement and throwing it in the harbour, destroying a railing and 'polluting' the harbour were not necessary to cease the harm. So that damage is not covered by that defence. To use the argument put forward by one of them - indecent graffiti is removed by the council. However if they remove the graffiti by knocked down the building on which it is painted, there are gonna be consequences.
think the world would be better off if Colston had never tried to “help” anyone.
Right, I mean no one benefited from the almshouses and hospitals, right?
The fact that he was a participant in the slave trade does not mean he wasn't a philanthropist. That he harmed some doesn't mean he didn't help others. It's not binary. The world would be much better off if we stopped trying to paint everything as black and white.
their argument that the statue is indecent, which they didn not prove,
Except they did to a Jury which listened all the evidence and arguments? Did you?
Bristol is a better place with that statue at the bottom of the docks.
The world would be much better off if we stopped trying to paint everything as black and white.
Not least because one of those things is a relatively recent modern construct
Chewkw - are you agreeing with my answers?!?
I take your point in your third answer by the way, but I think it really answers the question 4 I’d intended.
Q3 was really meant as “if the Coulston statue didn’t exist today would you support putting it up tomorrow?”
Given it was put up a while back, your answer to Q4 feels about where I am too.
This is what needs doing to Churchill, Wellington, Coulston, slavers, racists and warmonger’s statues.
https://images.app.goo.gl/PpogJwdKzUEKeZgV7
A little harmless, but thought provoking, subversion.
If the kind of ‘slavery’ you are talking about doesn’t conform in its entirety to the level of brutalisation and dehumanization, the severing of all familial, cultural, religious and linguistic ties and wholesale murder that the Atlantic slave trade entailed then stop making the comparison.
That the Atlantic slave trade was a particularly 'evil' form of slavery seems more of an assertion than anything else.
You believe the Arabs or Berbers (just one example of post-antiquity mass slavery) were much 'nicer'?
I’m directly descended from slaves forcibly removed from Mali and Senegal over 250 years ago to the Caribbean. One of my descendants ‘family’ names is that of a reknown privateer, slave-trader and no doubt I probably share some of his dna. My family faced racism and discrimination when returning from Guyana 100 years ago.
The likes of Colston profited immensely and the money generated from the slave trade continues to influence today as many of the landed gentry were rewarded handsomely with Government reparation payments with the abolition of slavery. Would David Cameron have had the same influence on UK politics if he grew up in Cowley? The lessons from history will never be learnt if we refuse to re-frame them through a different lens.
No. Could 4 young, white middle ish class people prove a direct harm to them from colston participating int the slave trade?
The jury thought so. Unlike you or me, they listened to all of the evidence.
Scoffer,
I said if it doesn't conform in its entirety then don't compare it.
Though really, why are you trying to compare the Atlatic slave trade with anything? Other than try to do diminish it, which you do by suggesting that seeing it as particularly evil is an assertion.
This trial wasn't a treatise on slavery in general, it was a trial related to a specific statue that loomed over my mates mum for 60 years. She moved to Bristol during the Windrush to work for the NHS whilst her husband served in the RAF.
She's in her 80s now but it didn't stop her tweeting out footage of the toppling like a social media obsessed teenager. She made sure she tweeted clips from every possible angle too!
Made her very happy and that's good enough for me. I'm sure she feels the same way about the verdict.
The lessons from history will never be learnt if we refuse to re-frame them through a different lens.
What lessons? I know of no movement to reinstitute the Atlantic slave trade. Such an idea wouldn't be taken seriously by anyone.
With slavery a universal across human history the remarkable thing is that the British not only banned it internally but enforced this ban worldwide at the cost of a lot of men and treasure. This is one reason for the decline in the Barbary and Arab slaves trade. The British (and later Americans too) were sinking or confiscating the slaving ships off the coast of North, East Africa, Arabian Gulf and Indian Ocean.
I use the term 'black history' as it's relevant in this case. If you prefer; 'people from Africa were kidnapped and sold into bondage in America', then i'll say that. The point i'm making is there are aspects of UK heritage and history that are not widely known about, or glossed over. It may have been acceptable practice at the time but we know better now, so have a responsibility to educate our children - maybe they won't make the same mistakes. It's not nice, but it happened. We should try to stop it from happening again.
Though really, why are you trying to compare the Atlatic slave trade with anything? Other than try to do diminish it,
Context is key don't you think? The Atlantic slave trade is historically situated. It's a product of its times.
Chewkw – are you agreeing with my answers?!?
I take your point in your third answer by the way, but I think it really answers the question 4 I’d intended.Q3 was really meant as “if the Coulston statue didn’t exist today would you support putting it up tomorrow?”
Given it was put up a while back, your answer to Q4 feels about where I am too.
I do not agree with brute force removal, if it is already there, because that just open a can of worm. That's what I am trying to say.
If it is not there then there is really no need to support putting one up. What for? Common sense dictates that we should check the history or story before we erect something. A bit like people having tattoo and regret later ... (not a good example but that's so funny coz tattoo removal is making a roaring business now)
My whole disapproval is brute force or as my communist friend referred to as "direct action".
If brute force is the way forward are we really different to the followings?
The toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue
The toppling of Lenin's statue
The bombing of Buddha of Bamiyan
etc
Who or what next?
What do they have in common? Brute force.
Can brute force be distinguished?
p/s: ... the CCP's action ... now that will cost them. https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/deity-09072021110051.html
With slavery a universal across human history the remarkable thing is that the British not only banned it internally but enforced this ban worldwide at the cost of a lot of men and treasure.
that is an incredibly anglocentric version of history and nothing like the truth
The British Colonial Empire as international freedom fighters and the scourge of slave traders the world over?
We should try to stop it from happening again.
Very true, which is why I would prefer people to be focussing their attention on the slavery (or slavery-like conditions) still suffered by many, many people in the world today, including large parts of Africa.
Toppling statues but not protesting about modern day slavery leaves people open (rightly or wrongly, I'm not sure) to accusations of virtue signalling.
Later this year we're going to see a World Cup played out in stadia built by people living in working in some truly inhumane conditions. Rather than "taking the knee" I'd love to see a generation of young players from all countries saying "No, we are not going to play there" which maybe would send a signal. Will it happen though, no it won't.
Cake...I LOVED your point about the death rate being higher among the sailors on a slave ship. A) NO IT WASNT!!!! B) what is the comparison between the slaves on the ship and the sailors? I am interested as I am one of those lefty teachers that is eroding your proud Britishness with my woke teaching. Oh; and I did my dissertation on the Scottish influence on Caribbean slavery( interesting fact; Burns had signed up to be an overseer until a Scots Quair took off) so am interested in the facts about British slavery you seem to have exclusive access to that my Uni missed such as the slaving nations of Africa that were TOTALLY there; just collecting slaves, waiting for the Europeans to start the plantation system.
What lessons? I know of no movement to reinstitute the Atlantic slave trade. Such an idea wouldn’t be taken seriously by anyone.
Maybe not that, but slavery and human trafficking is going on right now, in this country and all over the world.
Are you not aware of this fact?
Later this year we’re going to see a World Cup played out in stadia built by people living in working in some truly inhumane conditions.
Pale in comparison to what CCP is going to do people of HK or certain parts of China.
that is an incredibly anglocentric version of history and nothing like the truth
What is the truth then?
A very rough and ready quote:
From this:
In surveying crew mortality for 350 Bristol and Liverpool slavers between 1784 and 1790, a House of Commons committee found that 21.6 percent of sailors died, a figure that was in keeping with Thomas Clarkson's estimates at the time and is consistent with modern research. Roughly twenty thousands British slave-trade seamen died between 1780 and 1807. For sailors as for African captives, living for several months aboard a slave ship was in itself a struggle for life.[4]
This is never mentioned when discussing the mortality rates of slaves on slave ships because it upsets the narrative. Thousand of white sailors died; white lives weren't more valuable than black lives. In fact, the owners had every incentive to let sailors die (from various diseases) because you can't pay dead men!
As for your other point. It hardly matters if Europeans provided the demand, the African kingdoms such as Benin and groups such as the Ashanti had as much moral culpability by providing the supply. Do we let drug dealers go free today because they only service a demand?
Some cracking “All Lives Matter” stuff going on here. 😀
I dont think theres any 'other evidence' outwith what we know.
4 people, amongst others ripped down a statue in an act of public disorder and rioting, and rolled it through the streets to dump it in the harbour.
Reason for doing so was they truly believed.
But that argument isnt an argument or if it is then it excuses all the actions from history, even slavery itself, after all, weren't the people of that era convinced they had the moral highground over those they knew to be lesser than themselves.
30-40% of slaves died on tight pack ships, 15-25% on loose pack, over 99.9% of slaves died as slaves. And being a sailor on a slave ship was very well paid( they got a % of the cargo value) and you got the pick of the woman, that's why they did it..I mean; that is if you are enough of a loon to compare sailors to slaves of course which you are. Oh; and the African nations were offered a choice of "you or somebody else." We then made their entire economy reliant on slaving to the point they imported food and needed guns to protect themselves from other states looking to prey on them. We actually supported friendlier states in mopping up ones that refused to get on board. but yeah; totally complicit. I still can't get my head round how you see the sailors experience as the same as the slaves. Even for an apologist for slavery and trying to dilute the impact and legacy of it; that is some leap.
