[Closed] could this happen? islamic future?

The music is a nice touch.

Well, depends if you think Muslims are normal, sensible, reasonable people like the rest of us - or if you're like the person who wrote the captions to that video who's obviously got some deep-rooted problems.

normal, sensible, reasonable people like the rest of us

😆

to be honest, i did not read the captions. i was too busy listening the the Dewsbury mp's speach.
regardless of the racist rubbish,

could it happen in the future?

I'm looking forward to the beheadings and amputations.
Will they be shown between Jeremy Kyle and This Morning?
Seriously though Ton, WTF are you looking at that kind of extremist bullshit?

could it happen in the future?

Let me ask an expert...

[img] [/img]

I quite liked it when they were our friends and stemming the communist horde.

What an absolutely hateful video.

could it happen in the future?

Could what happen? More Muslim MPs? Sure - if people vote for them why not? Or do you mean the rubbish about Sharia law and beheadings?

I wasn't sure what to think but thankfully they added creepy music so I knew I was supposed to be scared.

Edit. CBA

A similar video:

whenever I see seemingly sensible folk buying into this anti-islamic bullshit I'm reminded of this video

The problem is that it's not all bullshit, just 99% of it.

We need to have a sensible discussion about the influence of religion in a democratic society.
But we can't, because people are refusing to engage sensibly and fall back on ingrained prejudice.

The problem is that it's not all bullshit

Yeah it pretty much nearly all is.

Videos like that are not a sensible discussion.

Oh wait you added a bit to your first line.

YouTube for simpletons.

No, it couldn't happen.

The problem is that it's not all bullshit, just 99% of it.

We need to have a sensible discussion about the influence of religion in a democratic society.
But we can't, because people are refusing to engage sensibly and fall back on ingrained prejudice.

Can't argue with that... religion is used as a tool to manipulate and brainwash.

Word has it that U.S. and UK allies, Saudi Arabia, are funding Wahhabi extremists to stir hate in UK mosques, much like evangelist Christians do in the U.S. or Zionist Jews do in Israel.

It's almost as if it's orchestrated by the powers that be to divide and conquer and fuel profitable perpetual war a la 1984 (pfft, like that could have any truths! government surveillance is conspiracy theory 🙄 )

Drac - Moderator

The problem is that it's not all bullshit

Yeah it pretty much nearly all is.

I wasn't referring to the video btw.
I was referring to Yunki's comment about Islamophobia.

There are issues we need to address as a society about how we treat the beliefs of people who identify themselves primarily by their religious convictions rather than as a member of the society in which they live.

Word has it

Ah yes. A good unfounded rumour. That'll keep things moving along in a positive direction.

so realistically we're talking about 99.999999% then rustyspanner, considering the number of muslims that go about their lives in a peaceful manner as fully integrated members of whatever society they happen to be part of

the fact that so many folk see fit to demonise an entire global religious community based on the actions and beliefs of 0.000001% of that community's members is abhorrent no?

(these figures may not be entirely accurate 😳 )

Oh wait you added a bit to your first line.

People assume that because you criticize something, you must be fundamentally against it.

If you wish to read something into my post that does not exist, that's up to you.

But it's a perfect example of the point I made about not being able to have a rational discussion about anything without people jumping to conclusions about your motivation.

You did the same on the 'Dog attack' thread too.
It's a bit sad really and I'm getting a bit tired of it.

Would anyone object if in England every single person was made to go to a mosque thrice a day

or have your head cut off down dewsbury for denouncing the almighty , in fact didn't we used to put people in stocks in village centres for such offences

if it happens there wont be any threads like this

yunki - Member

so realistically we're talking about 99.999999% then rustyspanner, considering the number of muslims that go about their lives in a peaceful manner as fully integrated members of whatever society they happen to be part of

Yes, of course.

Catshroedinger - if we get invaded by giant space marshmallows who insist that we all suck dildos every waking second there may not be threads like this either..

Tell you what, just to clarify, I'll repost this from a different thread:

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/multicultural-britain ]Multicultural Britain[/url]

I'm a moral absolutist:

Universal suffrage, sexual, gender and racial equality, freedom from poverty and the right to work, the right to education, clean water, decent housing, control over contraception and abortion, freedom of association etc are all values that post war western democracies have strived to achieve.

They make life better for the majority of people - they give people the chance to participate fairly and equally in our society - we accept that they are 'good things'.

If people disagree with any of these things for whatever religious or cultural reasons, then I don't believe we should alter our aims and aspirations to accommodate them.

If you place the word of god above all else you replace your own reason with that of those who currently claim to espouse the beliefs of your particular deity or deities.

Now, if anyone would care for a sensible discussion, I'm all for it.
If you'd just like to continue making assumptions based on what you THINK I believe, I'll leave you and your prejudice well alone.

if we get invaded by giant space marshmallows who insist that we all suck dildos every waking second there may not be threads like this either..

is this not already happening ?with the exception of the the space marshmallows don't we just suck cock at the whim of the government anyway.

Apologies for my bad taste, but that is very much what many of the allegations surrounding Elm Guest House, Dolphin Square, Jersey etc are about...

the fact that so many folk see fit to demonise an entire global religious community based on the actions and beliefs of 0.000001% of that community's members is abhorrent no?

It's much more about culture than religion.

In the case of Islam and/or Zionism it's hard to see the join.

No it will not happen

Should we be promoting what is fundamentally racist propaganda? The captioning is lunatic right wing ranting and a complete and utter misrepresentation of what the speaker is saying - did anyone else notice that he was joking when he said all MPs would be Muslim at the rate of growth? But also gave a more realistic target of 20 by the next election to match the muslim proportion in the UK ie 3% ( I assume the 2010 election as he is making the speech as a labour minister).

I just don't know why people buy into this fear mongering, it is transparently ridiculous - there really are parallels to the racist propaganda of the c20 totalitarian regimes.

vickypea - Member

It's much more about culture than religion.

The major Abrahamic religions are fundamentally very similar.
They have all gone through many periods of reformation and fundamentalism.
'The Word Of God' constantly changes depending in the cultural, political and social aspirations of the societies which embrace them.
Islamic nations were the largest repositories of knowledge in the world whilst we were flinging shit at each other and abusing turnips.
😀

so really this whole 'fear of that religion growing to a stage where they take over and try to impose it on us' would be wholly more accurate if it was Muslims worrying about Christianity?

Islamic nations were the largest repositories of knowledge in the world whilst we were flinging shit at each other and abusing turnips.

I don't think they did it by choice.

tbf 99% of the population in that there caliphate was abusing vegetables (probably not root veg) at the time even while scientific, mathematic and literary miracles were being worked by the elite. Just English peasants weren't all thumbing through hand-illustrated Bibles to pass the time.

If people disagree with any of these things for whatever religious or cultural reasons, then I don't believe we should alter our aims and aspirations to accommodate them.

yunki - Member

so really this whole 'fear of that religion growing to a stage where they take over and try to impose it on us' would be wholly more accurate if it was Muslims worrying about Christianity?

Doesn't matter really - swings and roundabouts.

Fundamentalist Christianity in 20th century western democracies was dealt a harsh blow by universal education and the growing acceptance of scientific rationalism.

A scientific approach and the insistence on rational, evidence based analysis does not wholly suit those who wish to exercise control by the manipulation of religious belief.
Rationalism demands the exercise of individual thought and a questioning of established dogma.
Fundamental religious belief demands the exact opposite.

konabunny - Member
Which "us" are you referring to? I reckon most of the UK population has a problem with at least one of the values you're suggesting are universally share,

'Us' as a society.

Death to the infidels!

Hence not voting for any Muslim MP.

I don't hate them, I disagree with their values and voted for my local Tory MP.

😳

Could this happen?

The theory takes some disputing in my opinion. I don't know if the maths are correct, but the concept is entirely believable. Ignore the racist lilt and discuss the theory

You did the same on the 'Dog attack' thread too.
It's a bit sad really and I'm getting a bit tired of it.

Trust it's not personal but if you're not using quotes you really can't tell who or what you're referring to. Especially when you go back and alter your post so it reads different.

Ok.

The theory takes some disputing in my opinion. I don't know if the maths are correct, but the concept is entirely believable. Ignore the racist lilt and discuss the theory

TAFKASTR - my immediate response in so what. So what if there are growing numbers of muslims. There are also growing numbers of secular people. How about the rapidly growing Hindu population in India?

The is an underpinning assumption in this video that (a) Islam in homogeneous and all muslims and are equally similar (b) that it is negative and (c) that the dominant western culture will not secularise Islam as it has Christianity. Ultimately, religious fundamentalism is not compatible with capitalism or globalisation. So beyond a limited extent it would be self beggaring financially. Also the dominant cultural paradigm is western - this juggernaut isn't going to stop rolling anytime soon. The momentum of liberal economic and social policy necessary for capitalism will always marginalise fundamentalism.

BTW the analysis looks pretty dodgy too - there is a book by Fred Pearce that covers global population if you are interested in something a bit better researched than an you tube video.

From a recent video by a British Jihadist:

"This is the golden era of jihad. What are we doing sitting in the UK, what are we doing in their lands, it’s not the land for us. [b]Are we content with eating Nando’s every week?[/b] Come to the land of jihad and shout Allah."

So that's what's keeping us safe from mass slaughter, peri-peri chicken!

Surely no-one is content with eating nandos, even once!

All this nonsense about depriving the Jihadists of their British passports. Just give them a life ban from Nandos. Problem solved.

The thing about Nandos is interesting - because the jihadists really aren't very good Muslims. The couple who were caught on the way to Syria had ordered Islam For Dummies from Amazon:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/jihadist-radicalisation-islam-for-dummies_b_5697160.html

The problem isn't Islam. The problem is disaffected youths.

badnewz

Yes but he is a non-representative extremist - but does illustrate that such religious fundamentalists don't like western culture as it is a real threat to their brand of extremism. Do you not think the answer from almost everyone to his question is yes I'm happy eating chicken, going to work in a nice office, comfortable house, car, acces to NHS healthcare, education etc etc and don't fancy fighting and dying in a foreign field for a twisted interpretation of religious dogma

You illustrate another point as well - you focus on one idiot making a noise about Nando's but ignore the millions happily eating mass produced chicken dinners. Extremism is newsworthy because of its nature - loud and threatening and abhorrent to the overwhelming majority. But massive coverage it gets in the media means it gives a skewed perception of its popular support.

This does not in anyway undermine the horror in Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Libya or anywhere else (Rwanda 20 years ago, Palestine, North Korea) but to contextualise religious extremism in Western countries in this way is massively misleading - and to be honest plays into the hands of the racists and those that see benefit increasing state powers to protect "our freedoms".

but to contextualise religious extremism in Western countries in this way is massively misleading

What I have posted, I have posted. I should add, I don't actually believe Nando's is the only thing saving us from mass slaughter.

Subways plays its part too.

(I posted because I thought it was an example of the literary concept of Bathos - trying to make an elevated point whilst referencing a well known restaurant chain).

... my point about contextualising was about the media portrayal rather than your posting specifically (I noted the tongue in cheek of your first post - I am not a humourless leftie - honest!)

Batho's - mmm, I love their Spicy Sensation Wrap meals.

The problem isn't Islam. The problem is disaffected youths.

A Northern Irish acquaintance always claimed there were no more nutters there than anywhere else, they just had a cause to fight over.

What illogical bullshit why would having a Muslim pm lead to public beheadings etc ?

olddog - Member

TAFKASTR - my immediate response in so what. So what if there are growing numbers of muslims. There are also growing numbers of secular people.

The problem is not the rising number of muslims.
It's the rising number of fundamentalists of any religion.

The is an underpinning assumption in this video that (a) Islam in homogeneous and all muslims and are equally similar (b) that it is negative and (c) that the dominant western culture will not secularise Islam as it has Christianity.

Western culture has not secularized Christianity.
Fundamental Christians are more vocal and powerful than they have been in the last 100 years.
The number of people who believe in creationism in Western democracies is on the rise - a pretty good guide to defining fundamentalism, imo.

Western culture has not secularized Christianity.
Fundamental Christians are more vocal and powerful than they have been in the last 100 years.
The number of people who believe in creationism in Western democracies is on the rise - a pretty good guide to definine fundamentalism, imo

I agree there are more obviously fundamentalist (Christians, Muslims etc) but I think (opinion not backed up by research...) that this may be two things. The secularisation of society as whole is leaving their point of view behind so they become more obvious and disconnected and that naturally (small c) conservative Christians etc feel pushed towards fundamentalism because mainstream Christianity is moving away from them. Society is happy with sex before marriage, co-habitation, same sex marriage (I'm sure there are non-sex/relationship examples) - all against Christain tenets. I think my thing about newsworthiness because they are outside of the norm and loud holds as well.

I realise the US is different, but I still see basically a secular (consumerist) country in practice that talks about god a lot and likes church socials!

It could be argued that secularism has won, and fundamentalism is the final stand of religion before it goes under.

BTW I've just noticed that my computer auto-capitalises Christian but not Muslim...

The secularisation of society as whole is leaving their point of view behind so they become more obvious and disconnected and that naturally (small c) conservative Christians etc feel pushed towards fundamentalism because mainstream Christianity is moving away from them.

I agree.

I realise the US is different, but I still see basically a secular (consumerist) country in practice that talks about god a lot and likes church socials!

It could be argued that secularism has won, and fundamentalism is the final stand of religion before it goes under.

Fingers crossed eh?
🙂

BTW I've just noticed that my computer auto-capitalises Christian but not Muslim...

It could be argued that secularism has won, and fundamentalism is the final stand of religion before it goes under.

Fingers crossed eh?

Well my fingers aint crossed, because Islam isnt on the wane and do you think if it becomes the dominant religion it will be tolerant of the non-religious ?

Ps Im not a religious type

See my post further up. Islam is not homogeneous and neither are Muslims. I think that capitalism is the real dominant ideology and I don't think fundamentalism is compatible with running transnational tech, pharma, industrial, chemical, engineering corporations.

There is an interest in the media (selling newsprint), politicians (keeping us distracted from economic and domestic issues) in promoting this story of fear - but just doesn't ring true to me [edit]

It's an interesting thought, but I don't think that big business would refuse to deal with anyone because of religious fundamentalism.

Refuse to admit to it?
Of course.

But actually refuse to take money from potential customers?
I just can't see it.
Businesses will happily sell to anyone they can.

I agree, I think business will deal with anyone who has the bucks and who it is legal too deal with (or not as well I guess, depends on the morality of the owners)

What I mean is that any society (not individual) that is hidebound by a extreme form of religious dogma that denies all sorts of scientific and technical progress - I can't see it making huge advances in business. This is why I think the US isn't run by the fundamentalists - its run by a lot of pragmatic Christians (and non-Christians) who see the value of science/tech as a tool of business

I may be completely wrong, who knows. But I tend to like to have a benign view of the world and people generally (base on experience) and that includes religion - at least if we were given half a chance by the minority of extremists (and I include political in this) who try to force us down one dead-end of another.

See my post further up. Islam is not homogeneous and neither are Muslims. I think that capitalism is the real dominant ideology and I don't think fundamentalism is compatible with running transnational tech, pharma, industrial, chemical, engineering corporations

Imagine the WMD you could create if your ideology ruled the ,Oh wait a minute this already exists only for some peculiar reason the muslims aren't in charge

When the first muslim prime minister ,in fact no lets up the stakes President (caveat in a non fundamentalist country) gets in there truly might be something signifying progress

who it is legal too deal with

That is a joke isn't it you honestly think governments the weapons industry and agenda give a shit about legality?

There are plenty of Muslim presidents in non-fundamentalist countries, Indonesia? Jordan? Turkey? just about every other country with an Islamic leader

I think you are misunderstanding me, I have no problem whatsoever with religion per see. I thought the original video was racist bile and completely misrepresented the speaker and I though that the second video was from an anti-Islamic and racist precept

There are pretty on Muslim presidents in non-fundamentalist countries

i was looking a lot closer to home to be honest

... I think ultimately the problem is that there seems to be a (perhaps wilful) inability to differentiate extremists (not helped by the mainstream media and lots of internet hate) from the large majority of normal people of whatever religion who just want to get on with their lives in peace ....

I will say it one last time Islam is not homogeneous nor are Muslims any more that Christianity and Christians. To say otherwise is pretty much the definition of racism and that was my original point from which I got side tracked.

.. and I think that's me done.

"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers."

Quran 8:12, "The Spoils,"

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous."

Quran 9:123, "Repentance,"

Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers.

Quran 5:51, "The Table,"

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.

Quran 4:34, "Women,"

So much great stuff in the Quran. Those really nice 99% of Muslims don't believe in those bits though.

To say otherwise is pretty much the definition of racism

Or ignorance, which is something racism preys on.

Of course, religion preys on it too, just for balance. (-:

So much great stuff in the Quran. Those really nice 99% of Muslims don't believe in those bits though.

So pretty much like Christians and the Bible, then? Ever read Leviticus?

So much great stuff in the Quran. Those really nice 99% of Muslims don't believe in those bits though.

To be fair, you could cherry-pick from the Bible in much the same way. Islam doesn't have the monopoly on stirring up violence against those who are in some way different or 'impure.'

Come to that, religion doesn't have the monopoly on it either; it just gives it some structure, I don't doubt for a moment there's plenty of atheists whose idea of is a good night is six pints of tortoise and a kicking in of the heads of a homosexual or two.

I think what I'm trying to say is, there will always be hateful bawbags and they come in many forms. If they didn't have a Good Book or a shouty bloke with a beard telling them what to do, they'd find some other excuse.

So pretty much like Christians and the Bible, then? Ever read Leviticus?

True.

I haven't got time or anyone who 'believes' in either to be honest. Like all mental illnesses, they need clinical help to recover from the disease to enable them to integrate into society.

I ignored the captions and listened to what he said. It seemed entirely reasonable. The captions were just some idiots hate filled paranoia.

So much great stuff in the Quran. Those really nice 99% of Muslims don't believe in those bits though

Any sex in it?

So pretty much like Christians and the Bible, then? Ever read Leviticus?

If Christians are the so called followers of JC then surely only the New testament applies !

Quran and the old testament is virtually identical in big chunks

I agree that education is the key to raising people away from ignorance and hateful ideology, whether that's jihadiism or racist nonsense like the video.

To that end I think free schools, faith schools and the privatization of education are a really really bad idea

If Christians are the so called followers of JC then surely only the New testament applies !

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

[i]Could this happen? Islamic future?[/i]

Looks like it according to Wikipedia if past census is anything to go by.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom

Demography and ethnic background[edit]
The Muslim population of England and Wales has grown consistently since the 1950s. Sophie Gilliat-Ray attributes the recent growth to[23]

recent immigration, the growing birth rate, some conversion to Islam, and perhaps also an increased willingness to self-identify as "Muslim" on account of the "war on terror"

[i]Census Year Number of Muslims (thousands) Population of England and Wales (thousands) Muslim (% of population) Registered Mosques Muslims per mosque[/i]
[pre]
1961 50 46,196 0.11[24] 7 7,143
1971 226 49,152 0.46[24] 30 7,533
1981 553 49,634 1.11[24] 149 3,711
1991 950 51,099 1.86[24] 443 2,144
2001 1,600 52,042 3.07[24] 614 2,606
2011 2,869 62,369 4.80[25] 1,500 1,912
[/pre]

When you think about it, we have access to the material all the mainstream religions are based on.

What about secret societies like Freemasonry?

If Christians are the so called followers of JC then surely only the New testament applies !

You seem to have forgotten who JCs dad is.

The basic idea is the same for Jews, Christians and Muslims, just different ideas of who was a messiah and who was a naughty boy.

Religion has no place in the future.