[Closed] could this happen? islamic future?

TAFKASTR - my immediate response in so what. So what if there are growing numbers of muslims. There are also growing numbers of secular people. How about the rapidly growing Hindu population in India?

The is an underpinning assumption in this video that (a) Islam in homogeneous and all muslims and are equally similar (b) that it is negative and (c) that the dominant western culture will not secularise Islam as it has Christianity. Ultimately, religious fundamentalism is not compatible with capitalism or globalisation. So beyond a limited extent it would be self beggaring financially. Also the dominant cultural paradigm is western - this juggernaut isn't going to stop rolling anytime soon. The momentum of liberal economic and social policy necessary for capitalism will always marginalise fundamentalism.

BTW the analysis looks pretty dodgy too - there is a book by Fred Pearce that covers global population if you are interested in something a bit better researched than an you tube video.

From a recent video by a British Jihadist:

"This is the golden era of jihad. What are we doing sitting in the UK, what are we doing in their lands, it’s not the land for us. [b]Are we content with eating Nando’s every week?[/b] Come to the land of jihad and shout Allah."

So that's what's keeping us safe from mass slaughter, peri-peri chicken!

Surely no-one is content with eating nandos, even once!

All this nonsense about depriving the Jihadists of their British passports. Just give them a life ban from Nandos. Problem solved.

The thing about Nandos is interesting - because the jihadists really aren't very good Muslims. The couple who were caught on the way to Syria had ordered Islam For Dummies from Amazon:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/jihadist-radicalisation-islam-for-dummies_b_5697160.html

The problem isn't Islam. The problem is disaffected youths.

badnewz

Yes but he is a non-representative extremist - but does illustrate that such religious fundamentalists don't like western culture as it is a real threat to their brand of extremism. Do you not think the answer from almost everyone to his question is yes I'm happy eating chicken, going to work in a nice office, comfortable house, car, acces to NHS healthcare, education etc etc and don't fancy fighting and dying in a foreign field for a twisted interpretation of religious dogma

You illustrate another point as well - you focus on one idiot making a noise about Nando's but ignore the millions happily eating mass produced chicken dinners. Extremism is newsworthy because of its nature - loud and threatening and abhorrent to the overwhelming majority. But massive coverage it gets in the media means it gives a skewed perception of its popular support.

This does not in anyway undermine the horror in Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Libya or anywhere else (Rwanda 20 years ago, Palestine, North Korea) but to contextualise religious extremism in Western countries in this way is massively misleading - and to be honest plays into the hands of the racists and those that see benefit increasing state powers to protect "our freedoms".

but to contextualise religious extremism in Western countries in this way is massively misleading

What I have posted, I have posted. I should add, I don't actually believe Nando's is the only thing saving us from mass slaughter.

Subways plays its part too.

(I posted because I thought it was an example of the literary concept of Bathos - trying to make an elevated point whilst referencing a well known restaurant chain).

... my point about contextualising was about the media portrayal rather than your posting specifically (I noted the tongue in cheek of your first post - I am not a humourless leftie - honest!)

Batho's - mmm, I love their Spicy Sensation Wrap meals.

The problem isn't Islam. The problem is disaffected youths.

A Northern Irish acquaintance always claimed there were no more nutters there than anywhere else, they just had a cause to fight over.

What illogical bullshit why would having a Muslim pm lead to public beheadings etc ?

olddog - Member

TAFKASTR - my immediate response in so what. So what if there are growing numbers of muslims. There are also growing numbers of secular people.

The problem is not the rising number of muslims.
It's the rising number of fundamentalists of any religion.

The is an underpinning assumption in this video that (a) Islam in homogeneous and all muslims and are equally similar (b) that it is negative and (c) that the dominant western culture will not secularise Islam as it has Christianity.

Western culture has not secularized Christianity.
Fundamental Christians are more vocal and powerful than they have been in the last 100 years.
The number of people who believe in creationism in Western democracies is on the rise - a pretty good guide to defining fundamentalism, imo.

Western culture has not secularized Christianity.
Fundamental Christians are more vocal and powerful than they have been in the last 100 years.
The number of people who believe in creationism in Western democracies is on the rise - a pretty good guide to definine fundamentalism, imo

I agree there are more obviously fundamentalist (Christians, Muslims etc) but I think (opinion not backed up by research...) that this may be two things. The secularisation of society as whole is leaving their point of view behind so they become more obvious and disconnected and that naturally (small c) conservative Christians etc feel pushed towards fundamentalism because mainstream Christianity is moving away from them. Society is happy with sex before marriage, co-habitation, same sex marriage (I'm sure there are non-sex/relationship examples) - all against Christain tenets. I think my thing about newsworthiness because they are outside of the norm and loud holds as well.

I realise the US is different, but I still see basically a secular (consumerist) country in practice that talks about god a lot and likes church socials!

It could be argued that secularism has won, and fundamentalism is the final stand of religion before it goes under.

BTW I've just noticed that my computer auto-capitalises Christian but not Muslim...

The secularisation of society as whole is leaving their point of view behind so they become more obvious and disconnected and that naturally (small c) conservative Christians etc feel pushed towards fundamentalism because mainstream Christianity is moving away from them.

I agree.

I realise the US is different, but I still see basically a secular (consumerist) country in practice that talks about god a lot and likes church socials!

It could be argued that secularism has won, and fundamentalism is the final stand of religion before it goes under.

Fingers crossed eh?
🙂

BTW I've just noticed that my computer auto-capitalises Christian but not Muslim...

It could be argued that secularism has won, and fundamentalism is the final stand of religion before it goes under.

Fingers crossed eh?

Well my fingers aint crossed, because Islam isnt on the wane and do you think if it becomes the dominant religion it will be tolerant of the non-religious ?

Ps Im not a religious type

See my post further up. Islam is not homogeneous and neither are Muslims. I think that capitalism is the real dominant ideology and I don't think fundamentalism is compatible with running transnational tech, pharma, industrial, chemical, engineering corporations.

There is an interest in the media (selling newsprint), politicians (keeping us distracted from economic and domestic issues) in promoting this story of fear - but just doesn't ring true to me [edit]

It's an interesting thought, but I don't think that big business would refuse to deal with anyone because of religious fundamentalism.

Refuse to admit to it?
Of course.

But actually refuse to take money from potential customers?
I just can't see it.
Businesses will happily sell to anyone they can.

I agree, I think business will deal with anyone who has the bucks and who it is legal too deal with (or not as well I guess, depends on the morality of the owners)

What I mean is that any society (not individual) that is hidebound by a extreme form of religious dogma that denies all sorts of scientific and technical progress - I can't see it making huge advances in business. This is why I think the US isn't run by the fundamentalists - its run by a lot of pragmatic Christians (and non-Christians) who see the value of science/tech as a tool of business

I may be completely wrong, who knows. But I tend to like to have a benign view of the world and people generally (base on experience) and that includes religion - at least if we were given half a chance by the minority of extremists (and I include political in this) who try to force us down one dead-end of another.

See my post further up. Islam is not homogeneous and neither are Muslims. I think that capitalism is the real dominant ideology and I don't think fundamentalism is compatible with running transnational tech, pharma, industrial, chemical, engineering corporations

Imagine the WMD you could create if your ideology ruled the ,Oh wait a minute this already exists only for some peculiar reason the muslims aren't in charge

When the first muslim prime minister ,in fact no lets up the stakes President (caveat in a non fundamentalist country) gets in there truly might be something signifying progress

who it is legal too deal with

That is a joke isn't it you honestly think governments the weapons industry and agenda give a shit about legality?

There are plenty of Muslim presidents in non-fundamentalist countries, Indonesia? Jordan? Turkey? just about every other country with an Islamic leader

I think you are misunderstanding me, I have no problem whatsoever with religion per see. I thought the original video was racist bile and completely misrepresented the speaker and I though that the second video was from an anti-Islamic and racist precept

There are pretty on Muslim presidents in non-fundamentalist countries

i was looking a lot closer to home to be honest

... I think ultimately the problem is that there seems to be a (perhaps wilful) inability to differentiate extremists (not helped by the mainstream media and lots of internet hate) from the large majority of normal people of whatever religion who just want to get on with their lives in peace ....

I will say it one last time Islam is not homogeneous nor are Muslims any more that Christianity and Christians. To say otherwise is pretty much the definition of racism and that was my original point from which I got side tracked.

.. and I think that's me done.

"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers."

Quran 8:12, "The Spoils,"

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous."

Quran 9:123, "Repentance,"

Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers.

Quran 5:51, "The Table,"

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.

Quran 4:34, "Women,"

So much great stuff in the Quran. Those really nice 99% of Muslims don't believe in those bits though.

To say otherwise is pretty much the definition of racism

Or ignorance, which is something racism preys on.

Of course, religion preys on it too, just for balance. (-:

So much great stuff in the Quran. Those really nice 99% of Muslims don't believe in those bits though.

So pretty much like Christians and the Bible, then? Ever read Leviticus?

So much great stuff in the Quran. Those really nice 99% of Muslims don't believe in those bits though.

To be fair, you could cherry-pick from the Bible in much the same way. Islam doesn't have the monopoly on stirring up violence against those who are in some way different or 'impure.'

Come to that, religion doesn't have the monopoly on it either; it just gives it some structure, I don't doubt for a moment there's plenty of atheists whose idea of is a good night is six pints of tortoise and a kicking in of the heads of a homosexual or two.

I think what I'm trying to say is, there will always be hateful bawbags and they come in many forms. If they didn't have a Good Book or a shouty bloke with a beard telling them what to do, they'd find some other excuse.

So pretty much like Christians and the Bible, then? Ever read Leviticus?

True.

I haven't got time or anyone who 'believes' in either to be honest. Like all mental illnesses, they need clinical help to recover from the disease to enable them to integrate into society.

I ignored the captions and listened to what he said. It seemed entirely reasonable. The captions were just some idiots hate filled paranoia.

So much great stuff in the Quran. Those really nice 99% of Muslims don't believe in those bits though

Any sex in it?

So pretty much like Christians and the Bible, then? Ever read Leviticus?

If Christians are the so called followers of JC then surely only the New testament applies !

Quran and the old testament is virtually identical in big chunks

I agree that education is the key to raising people away from ignorance and hateful ideology, whether that's jihadiism or racist nonsense like the video.

To that end I think free schools, faith schools and the privatization of education are a really really bad idea

If Christians are the so called followers of JC then surely only the New testament applies !

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

[i]Could this happen? Islamic future?[/i]

Looks like it according to Wikipedia if past census is anything to go by.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom

Demography and ethnic background[edit]
The Muslim population of England and Wales has grown consistently since the 1950s. Sophie Gilliat-Ray attributes the recent growth to[23]

recent immigration, the growing birth rate, some conversion to Islam, and perhaps also an increased willingness to self-identify as "Muslim" on account of the "war on terror"

[i]Census Year Number of Muslims (thousands) Population of England and Wales (thousands) Muslim (% of population) Registered Mosques Muslims per mosque[/i]
[pre]
1961 50 46,196 0.11[24] 7 7,143
1971 226 49,152 0.46[24] 30 7,533
1981 553 49,634 1.11[24] 149 3,711
1991 950 51,099 1.86[24] 443 2,144
2001 1,600 52,042 3.07[24] 614 2,606
2011 2,869 62,369 4.80[25] 1,500 1,912
[/pre]

When you think about it, we have access to the material all the mainstream religions are based on.

What about secret societies like Freemasonry?

If Christians are the so called followers of JC then surely only the New testament applies !

You seem to have forgotten who JCs dad is.

The basic idea is the same for Jews, Christians and Muslims, just different ideas of who was a messiah and who was a naughty boy.

Religion has no place in the future.

Cue "The Illuminati" did it?

Esselgrunty are you Disco Stu ?
[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Cue "The Illuminati" did it?

I'm still skeptical, but you have to wonder; if this is a hoax, it's a bloody good one:

[b]Albert Pike and Three World Wars[/b]

Albert Pike received a vision, which he described in a letter that he wrote to Mazzini, dated August 15, 1871. This letter graphically outlined plans for three world wars that were seen as necessary to bring about the One World Order, and we can marvel at how accurately it has predicted events that have already taken place.
Pike's Letter to Mazzini

It is a commonly believed fallacy that for a short time, the Pike letter to Mazzini was on display in the British Museum Library in London, and it was copied by William Guy Carr, former Intelligence Officer in the Royal Canadian Navy. The British Library has confirmed in writing to me that such a document has never been in their possession. Furthermore, in Carr's book, Satan, Prince of this World, Carr includes the following footnote:

"The Keeper of Manuscripts recently informed the author that this letter is NOT catalogued in the British Museum Library. It seems strange that a man of Cardinal Rodriguez's knowledge should have said that it WAS in 1925".

It appears that Carr learned about this letter from Cardinal Caro y Rodriguez of Santiago, Chile, who wrote The Mystery of Freemasonry Unveiled.

To date, no conclusive proof exists to show that this letter was ever written. Nevertheless, the letter is widely quoted and the topic of much discussion.

Following are apparently extracts of the letter, showing how Three World Wars have been planned for many generations.

[b]"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."[/b]

Students of history will recognize that the political alliances of England on one side and Germany on the other, forged between 1871 and 1898 by Otto von Bismarck, co-conspirator of Albert Pike, were instrumental in bringing about the First World War.

[b]"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."[/b]

After this Second World War, Communism was made strong enough to begin taking over weaker governments. In 1945, at the Potsdam Conference between Truman, Churchill, and Stalin, a large portion of Europe was simply handed over to Russia, and on the other side of the world, the aftermath of the war with Japan helped to sweep the tide of Communism into China.

(Readers who argue that the terms Nazism and Zionism were not known in 1871 should remember that the Illuminati invented both these movements. In addition, Communism as an ideology, and as a coined phrase, originates in France during the Revolution. In 1785, Restif coined the phrase four years before revolution broke out. Restif and Babeuf, in turn, were influenced by Rousseau - as was the most famous conspirator of them all, Adam Weishaupt.)

[b]"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time." [/b]

Since the terrorist attacks of Sept 11, 2001, world events, and in particular in the Middle East, show a growing unrest and instability between Modern Zionism and the Arabic World. This is completely in line with the call for a Third World War to be fought between the two, and their allies on both sides. This Third World War is still to come, and recent events show us that it is not far off.

[b]To date, no conclusive proof exists to show that this letter was ever written. Nevertheless, the letter is widely quoted and the topic of much discussion.[/b]

To date, no conclusive proof that god exists

FTFY

That kind of attitude is not going to protect you from either the fundamentalists or the illuminati.

That kind of attitude is not going to protect you from either the fundamentalists or the illuminati.

"Respect, Bo Selecta"

Looks like it according to Wikipedia if past census is anything to go by.....

The table was a mangled mess so I've tidied that up for you. (Can't fit the titles without killing the forum formatting I'm afraid.)

To date, no conclusive proof exists to show that this letter was ever written. Nevertheless, the letter is widely quoted and the topic of much discussion.

That is a very fair point, although it appears it may have first become public around the 1890s...

When you consider things such as

The letter is allegedly written to [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Mazzini ]Guiseppe Mazzini[/url], who was pivotal in founding the mafia

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar ]Prescott Bush funding and profiting from the Nazis[/url]

Brothers [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Foster_Dulles ]John Foster Dulles[/url](U.S. Sec of State) and [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Dulles ]Allen Dulles[/url](Director of CIA) are said to have met with Banker [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Baron_von_Schr%C3%B6der ]Baron Kurt von Schroder[/url] before Hitler's rise to power and were involved in [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip ]Operation Paperclip[/url] and [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat ]Operation Ajax[/url]

Your head starts hurting and you rest for a while before taking on any more information 😆