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I suppose I'm English but choose to identify as Chinese. That's the way it works these days isn't it?
Has anyone got a definition of English, or British ?
There is virtually no evidence that there was ever any unified Celtic identity or culture (a ‘people’) in pre-history.
As I understand it, the link between these peoples is the artwork they left behind, which is all very similar - what you would expect if people had spread across Europe. Which is what led to assumptions that Celts were a race of people from central Europe. But now we think that the artistic style spread without mass human migration.
Yeah it get's a bit wild. I know a guy who's 2nd gen immigrant to Texas, his parents are Vietnamese, but By God he's from Texas!!
With the "celts" IIRC the welsh and the scots "celts" are actually very different genetically - ie no genetic evidence of them being the same peoples.
all nations are a bit of a mix but the UK is particularly so with successive invasions from different directions ie saxons, angles, normans invading from the south, vikings from the north and east
I have had my DNA tested and on one side of the family I share 2/3 of my genes with the sami people of lapland - not vikings. I assume when the tribe that became the Sami moved north across europe a branch split off and ended up in the welsh boarders while most of them carried on north
More recent genetic markers were the usual mix of danes, germans and vikings. My dad however ( and i am his son !) looks like a pure bred viking and also has dupuytrens contracture which is a relatively recent genetic mutation that only occurs in people with viking genes as its there it originated.
The modern british person is really a mongrel made up of a huge amount of genetic mixing
Celtic {insert nation here} identity was more or less made-up in the 19th century{insert time here} to buttress various forms of nationalism
Borders tend to be there to benefit the rich and powerful (who on a personal basis ignore them) at the expense of the rest of them. From tax collection, to organising military forces to fight for their interests, borders are there to keep the proles (literally) in their places.
I grew up in that part of the world in a very rural area. Generally I've found that the true locals (such as farmers with families that have been there for ever) are very welcoming and tolerant. Whereas some people who have moved there more recently think they own the place, more Cornish than the Cornish, and more likely to get on their high horse about how it's a separate nation.
Whereas some people who have moved there more recently think they own the place,
My stepdaughter moved from Doncaster to Bude in August (can’t blame her but I wouldn’t have gone to Cornwall) & within 6 weeks she was saying she was sick of the tourists!
I told her to get used to it.
I was wondering if English people regard Cornwall as England ? They definitely dont regard Wales or Scotland as England, both countries which they share a border with.
Speaking as someone who lives in England, more specifically Wessex, and has family connections locally going back to the mid 18th Century, I’ve always thought of Cornwall as a separate entity, it was never part of the first unified kingdom under one king, Alfred the Great, and it’s clearly got its own identity and language, which I’m very glad to see is gradually making a comeback.
Yellow ice-cream, thats just wrong 😕
Whilst I'm Scottish and proud of where I'm from and live I don't think the cornish thing is that uncommon. Don't Manx see themselves as such and not English. My Inlaws are from Bangor in North wales and there seems to be a massive North / South welsh thing. The north always seems bitter that the south predominately don't speak the language.
Changing things slightly when It comes to International football and the FA tried to move England games around the country ticket sales were slower the further north they went as people felt detached from the national team.
I suppose I’m English but choose to identify as Chinese. That’s the way it works these days isn’t it?
Nope! We all descendant the land known as China do not see it that way.
You can only be one of this ...
Chinese elite marxist or Chinese bot farmer or Real normal always on the run Chinese?
the first unified kingdom under one king, Alfred the Great
Alfred? Jonny come lately.
Fergus the Great is where it’s at with the united Celtic kingdoms around 300 years earlier.
it was never part of the first unified kingdom under one king, Alfred the Great
I think you find it was Aethelstan
You may also want to consider the treaty of Eamont Bridge
So to the English (or any of the home nations) people who consider themselves European over British, can I ask why that is?
After living over half my life outside the UK it's become pretty obvious that my values are pretty much the same as any similarly educated European. Ignore the language differences and the UK at large is much, much closer culturally to the rest of Europe than it is to anywhere else, including the US. Southeast England* definitely has an identity (and London even more so), but does Britain? So basically I think "Britain" is a just a subset of a larger entity, Europe, and while I'm legally obliged to carry a British passport tbh it just seems a bit silly in this day and age.
* I'm sure the same could be said of Scotland, or the Northeast, or Cornwall, I'm not saying for a second that this is a London thing!
So to the English (or any of the home nations) people who consider themselves European over British, can I ask why that is?
Had for me to explain how I feel about this
I hold no affinity to the political entity that is Great Britain. I do not think it serves its people well. The UK government foes not represent me and I abhor its actions.
But English is where my family came from for many generations. Scotland is my home. I am a european. I feel allegiance to Scotland and Europe but not to GB but I cannot deny my heritage
Of course the Scots aren’t British – they’re Irish. Linked ethnically with Celtic tribes from somewhere in Spain, not the Welsh Celtic tribes. And some of the Northern Irish are Scots. And then it gets confusing / confused.
The Scots, as in the tribe of that name, were Irish but here in the south Cumbric was the language and Cumbric was related to Welsh
In response to @footflaps you need to have an allegiance to a particular bakery as well, otherwise you're just visiting. 😉
Cornishman living in Wales, still mourning Horse & Jockey, Tinners aren't bad, Philps will suffice and at least they post.
I am a european
What is the definitive identity of Europeans TJ, which marks them out differently to the rest of humanity?
Why do you feel a stronger affinity with someone from say Estonia than you do with someone from Ontario?
Language? Politics? Culture? What?
Good question and one I do not know the answer to
I guess its cultural affinity / nearness / the fact I have visited and got friends in most european countries?
dunno tho. I will ponder and post again if I get a good answer!
Is it perhaps because you have been told to consider yourself as European?
What is the definitive identity of Europeans TJ, which marks them out differently to the rest of humanity?
Not TJ, but my answer: shared history and shared culture. Western Europe has stable democracies, we're all (mostly) atheist (or at least humanist) in outlook, we have similar culinary tastes etc. Our economies are pretty similar, our political systems too, etc. We're also geographically close.
I think you find it was Aethelstan
Indeed but Egbert did for the Cornish.
Is it perhaps because you have been told to consider yourself as European
Lolz - told to? who by? thats really not it. do I seem like the kind of person that does what he is told?
Cultural affinity and geographic location is as close as I can come to.
England = Perfidious Albion
British = Empire (good old days)
United Kingdom = Un United Kingdom.
Not TJ, but my answer: shared history and shared culture. Western Europe has stable democracies, we’re all (mostly) atheist (or at least humanist) in outlook, we have similar culinary tastes etc. Our economies are pretty similar, our political systems too, etc. We’re also geographically close.
TJ didn't specify Western European. But anyway how do those above points not also apply Ontario?
And as for geographic closeness do you feel that people living in Alaska should feel a greater affinity to Russia than the UK?
I can understand TJ feeling an affinity and closeness with Scotland, despite being English, but I don't understand why he feels a greater affinity and closeness with Estonia than he does with Ontario.
Cultural affinity
What cultural affinity do you have with someone from Estonia TJ?
Personally I feel a far greater cultural affinity with someone from Jamaica than I do with someone from Estonia.
And Jamaica is a very long way from Europe.
TJ didn’t specify Western European. But anyway how do those above points not also apply Ontario?
Yeah, but the point is inclusive not exclusive - Australians and Canadians are probably pretty close culturally to Europe, too. Why is someone from London and Glasgow or Cardiff part of the same "national identity" while the Canadians aren't?
Why are someone from London and Glasgow or Cardiff part of the same “national identity” while the Canadians aren’t?
Geography
#MongrelNation and better for it.
100% this. I just wish more people here right now could see that.
I always find it interesting though, that people (generalisation) seem to conflate nationalism/regionalism with cultural heritage. In terms of recent genetics, I'm half English, half Scots. In terms of current geo-politics I'm British/English. Personally though, I feel a quite specific combination of Fens and Fife (so maybe with tongue in cheek Norse/Pictish in the context of this thread) due to the cultural influences on me as I grew up, but that is a cultural identity and quite distinct from anything political or national.
In my ideal world, we'd ditch borders and nations and just celebrate our distinct cultures and shared humanity.
Geography
OK, so we draw a line from the Severn to the Humber, and we're done? North and they're not European, south and they are?
OK, so we draw a line from the Severn to the Humber, and we’re done? North and they’re not European, south and they are?
Why would you think that a sensible division
Why would you think that a sensible division
It wasn't supposed to be serious.
Go on then, what's a sensible division then? Mine is western Europe, for the reasons explained above. I'll allow that Australia and Canada should probably be included, too. And maybe Uruguay and Japan. But then geography was only one factor, there are clearly others.
a sensible division then
A sensible division is nation states as primarily defined by their geography, whether it be by
the sea, mountain ranges or rivers.
Why would you think that a sensible division
Why the need for division?
I can understand someone claiming to be Scots, or British, or English, or South Londoner (I don't consider myself simply a Londoner) it does after all help to identify who you are.
Describing yourself as a European however does not. You are very likely to share more in common with some non-Europeans than you do with many Europeans.
Apart from specifying which vague area of the planet you come from it provides no useful information.
About as useful as claiming that you are a Northern Hemispherian, imo.
People confuse identity with political structures think. They usually aren't the same thing, politcal structures contain many different identities and are better for it. The political structures nor the identities contained within are infinite constructs, they are transient.
Basically, identify with what you will. And if you want to change the overriding structure of the political landscape you live in, well, find enough like minded people and crack on if you can. If you want to identify with something culturally, that's on you, not really up to anyone else to tell you your culture.
Nothing is permanent. Neither politics nor identity. It would be a terrible world if either of these things were a constant.
I have to say I think Ernie raised a very interesting point and I am finding it hard to think of reason why Canada would be excluded if its "cultural affinity" that defines us and what we feel a part of.
I cannot really think of a good reason / definition for why I feel affinity to Europe but not other regions.
Jamaica as Ernie mentioned is also interesting - I have always been a big reggae fan and reggae rose in parallel in Jamaica and England so something seen generally as a very Jamaican thing actually has some of its roots in England in the Jamaican diaspora
I wonder if part of the difference between Ernie and I on this is part of the difference in where we live in the UK
Living in Scotland I feel more affinity to the nordic states than LOndon and the Reggae thing is very much england not UK
So Ernie - I still have no answer to you you bugger. 🙂
oldmanmtb2
Free Member
Northumbrian… not English not Scottish never will be.
The border reivers would like to dispute that...🙂
If you were born in Europe , it's likely that you share a common ancestor who lived a 1000 years ago, with every other European alive today, if you're parents and grandparents were born in the same place your link to the common ancestor is only about 6 generations ago. In that sense as Europeans we don't just share some things with other Europeans, we share everything with them.
It's also fair to say that lots of white people in places like New Zealand, Australia, Canada and of course the US also share those markers, making those people close to the European family as well.
It's also fair to say that it's likely that it was folk from Central Europe who travelled over what was then Beringia from Siberia to Alaska about 15,000 years ago to finally become all the native peoples of the American Continents (apart from a few groups of Polynesian folks about 8-10 thousand years ago who came the other way) so you share some ancestry with those people to.
Which just goes to show that with whom you share common ancestry or DNA or which Haplagroup (either paternal or Maternal) or which mDNA you share, and whether your ancestors were shuffled around post Plague or via the early medieval shifts (Viking, Muslim, Turkish and Mongol expansions) that the DNA companies seem increasingly obsessed with, or whether your grandparents emigrated post-war doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Somewhere, probably in your street or in the same town as you lives some-one with who you share an ancestor that's probably closer to you that you know.
What flag you wave, in that sense, doesn't matter a hill of beans, as long as you don't think it makes you part of a special group of folk, because you aren't.
Luckily for us, over history, humans are keener on ****ing each other than they are on killing each other.
One of the great advantages of micro nationalism and identification is the wars it prevents.
History shows that the smaller the cohort of self identifying and legitimising people (countries/counties/states/city states/towns/the gang from over the canal), the less likely that fights occur.
And of course, interdependence, partic. energy interdependence, is a key factor and enabler for starting wars, so the more "local control" a group has, the less likely they are to be upset about others having "more", even if the "others" only live "over the road". History clearly shows this.
Those that suggest that subtle stings are being pulled by "dark forces" to encourage discourse about "what makes you extra special" are clearly, as history shows, wrong.
I look forward to further reinforcement of the blatant and righteous fact that only people like me are like me and, as soon as Acacia Avenue announces UDI, the better. Once we are free of the influence of Lavender Drive, the better. If they want to take part in a continental wide nuclear exchange, well that's their business. We will be sitting pretty while they and their children are turned to radioactive offal.
Also, don't forget that you have to drive all the way through Devon to get to Cornwall. End your journey early to save petrol and avoid disappointment.
Western Europe has stable democracies,
Only just, military dictatorship isn't an obscure thing on the continent as the French and Spanish know
we’re all (mostly) atheist (or at least humanist) in outlook,
Really? Ties to a church run deep in a lot of countries in Western Europe
we have similar culinary tastes etc
The UK'S national dish is chicken tikka masala, or is that just England's?
. Our economies are pretty similar, our political systems too,
That's what you get after decade's of membership of the EU
etc. We’re also geographically close.
Yes,
Half this discussion is finding things you like and associating yourself with that and othering the identity you don't like. Let's take Vikings, wonderful I descended from this great seafaring nation with warriors and craftspeople etc etc they were also very prolific slavers which drove their economy. So when you say you have Viking roots are you proud of all that it means? ( Btw the AngloSaxons, Scots, Irish also were slavers at the time)
Describing yourself as a European however does not. You are very likely to share more in common with some non-Europeans than you do with many Europeans.
I work a lot with US residents, Canadian residents and have worked with Germany residents.
In their homelands in each case.
Now this may be peculiar to the job I do, but the Germans doing the same job, save the language and their English was superb, thought in almost identical ways to me. We had a huge amount in common.
The (US) Americans were really quite different.
The Canadians somewhere in between.
That said, I’ll agree that I probably have more in common with professional, middle class, left of centre types all around the world than with some right wing working class types 10 miles up the road. I just don’t understand where they’re coming from.
The UK’S national dish is chicken tikka masala, or is that just England’s?
Its Scotlands! It was invented in a curry house in glasgow called the "Gaylord" ( or is that urban myth?) 🙂
Definitely a Glasgow dish. Not sure about which particular establishment.
And pakora, so common and tasty in Glasgow, is scarce and poor quality in Yorkshire. (Unless someone knows a good source)
If you were born in Europe , it’s likely that you share a common ancestor who lived a 1000 years ago, with every other European alive today
Surely that is only true if you are white?
What is the likelihood of that if you are black or Asian?
The other important point is that it means **** all, despite what Nick Griffin/Stephen Yaxley-Lennon/Nigel Farage might claim.