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Surely that can't be evidence of innocence either?
I wasn't using it as a postition of innocence, as said it doesn;t sound like a doper.
I believe innocent until proven guilty, if guilty then a tougher punishment. One that will actully make the dopers stop and think.
Wiggins has always spoken against dopers in the past. He now sits on the fence more. Thats more likely to do with his media empire sponsor than anything else.
So you're comparing yourself to the fittest men in the world?
yes obviously well spotted I could compete in the tour I just find office work and talking on here so much more rewarding.
I think even professional athletes get tired ...iirc exerting yourself is tiring
I think that if you took out dopers and shot them it still wouldn't put them all off, except posthumously.
There is a problem with the UCI being in charge of promoting the sport and policing it at the same time (and accepting large bribes, sorry I mean donations, from star riders)
Wiggins media empire sponsor won't be insisting that Kimmage sits on the fence next Sunday
I'd support life time bans as well, it's the only disincentive big enough to stop most younger riders
I agree, but there are numerous issues with this relating to false positives, genuine mistakes, ensuring all riders are tested with the same frequency (if you only test the top riders you leave the lower order open to doping), keeping up with the current doping advances etc. Also it wouldn't surprise me if the riders refused to ride at first.
Good point nostoc. Nothing I can add to your post.
Don Carlos Castaño will have made his decision based on the evidence and not hearsay and will support the rider as being innocent until proven guilty. He will not have risked his reputation as president on the short term gains that one cyclist would give him, even if that cyclist is Contador, there are other Spanish cyclists who could win the Tour
What grounds do you have for making this assertion?
I'll not bite on the sarcastic comments regarding my relationship, or lack thereof, with the RFEC, except to say I don't have one. Do you? You seem to consider yourself to be in a position to make authoritative statements about the conduct and moral fortitude of it's president.
By the way he was quoted as follows when the investigation was referred to the Spanish authorities:
"My hope is that this matter will be favourable to the sportsman,"
"I've known him since he was in the junior teams and I can't help but put myself in his position."
Doesn't sound very impartial to me. Looks like the most favourable outcome he thought he could get away with is a 1 year ban instead of 2.
I'll not bite on the sarcastic comments regarding my relationship, or lack thereof, with the RFEC, except to say I don't have one. [b]Do you?[/b] You seem to consider yourself to be in a position to make authoritative statements about the conduct and moral fortitude of it's president.
Yes.
Anything to say about his statements to the press stating that he hopes to find in favour of the sportsman?
What else do you expect him to say, at a time before the official results have been released? He's a plolitician. It's also the RFEC that has banned him based on the evidence. I see no wrong doing on the part of the RFEC, but then again I might be a teensy weensy bit biased. 😉
100! In yer face Fred!!! 😉
I expect him to make an statement that they will fully investigate the case impartially and without bias toward an outcome either for or against the sportsman.
And do you think the outcome has been favourable to the sportsman?
Regardless of your fitness and if your one if the fittest (cycling) in the world, you can still have an off day!
Personally I don't think Andy S or Lance have ever doped, but thats my opinion. I didn't think Contador had cheated, but in doing so has tainted last years tour.
There will be debates till the cows come home over certain riders and doping. Personally I say clean until proven guilty. How many people last tour thought contador was doping!
As for Andy C improving alot on TTing. A year working on TTing is plenty to build on it. Contador wasn't built for it but he was still pretty dam fast. Peaople have a niave view on here, but eveyone is entitled to an opinion. Lets hope this years tour doesnt find out anymore doping riders!
And do you think the outcome has been favourable to the sportsman?
Yes. I think they have given him the minimum punishment they thought they could get away with politically.
Contador has presented an excuse that is theoretically possible but with no actual evidence to back it up, by rights he should be getting the standard 2 years.
Contador has presented an excuse that is theoretically possible but with no actual evidence to back it up, by rights he should be getting the standard 2 years.
I'm not sure that's how it works, the ban is given in accordance with the proven, committed crime, no? If there is no actual evidence to doping, he can't be banned for doping. And why not the minimum? Isn't that what most people try to do? Is see quite a lot of threads on here about people wanting to get out of paying parking fines or speeding tickets, of course Contador's lawyer was going to push for the lightest ban possible. Don't forget Alberto still has some time to appeal and CAS still has an opportunity to extend the ban, or are they part of the conspiracy?
You have your opinion and I have mine. 😆
Are you accusing him of consciously using or ingesting by accident? Is he foolish for using a product which could give him health problems? I agree, this would be foolish and probably unlikely. Or did he ingest accidently, which would comply with the story and contradict any deliberate doping allegation?
It is also a little naïve to think that there is no possibility of clem entering the food chain, especially here. Are all the UK farms that sell green top milk authorised? Or can you op down to your local farm and get a couple of pints of raw milk? Same difference between the official line and reality, no?
Not naive just being realistic, seeing as Contador has nutritionists and has a tightly controlled diet is highly unlikely that food (beef) is to blame, perhaps he used a drug that is some form of derivative of Clenbuterol designed to fool the doping control. Yes illegal meat does enter the food chain but I doubt his entourage or team would use a dodgy supplier. Perhap we are bein naive thinking Contador is clean like many other top names.
He [i]has[/i] been banned for doping. Strict liability means he is guilty, no ifs, no buts. His excuse is just mitigation.
I wouldn't expect Contador's lawyer to do anything other than push for a shorter ban. I wouldn't necessarily expect the federation to go along with it.
I'd be surprised if there wasn't an appeal to CAS from both Contador and WADA.
He has been banned for doping.
He's been banned for testing positive for a banned substance being present and not for illegally taking a banned substance to enhance his performance, there's a difference and therefore he's been banned in accordance.
He's been banned for testing positive for a banned substance being present and not for illegally taking a banned substance to enhance his performance, there's a difference and therefore he's been banned in accordance.
No, there isn't a difference.
The offence is (from WADA):
2.1 The presence of a Prohibited Substance or its Metabolites or Markers in an Athlete’s Sample
Strict liability is enforced. Intent is irrelevant in determining the offence committed.
They allow for mitigation:
However, the Athlete then has the possibility to avoid or reduce sanctions if the Athlete can demonstrate that he or she was not at fault or significant fault (Article 10.5 (Elimination or Reduction of Period of Ineligibility Based on Exceptional Circumstances)) or in certain circumstances did not intend to enhance his or her sport performance
So really it hinges on whether you believe Contador's excuse. He hasn't presented any real evidence that there ever was any tainted meat, and the burden of proof is on the athlete. I don't believe it. In my opinion he is bang to rights and should be punished accordingly.
edit: here's the [url= http://www.wada-ama.org/en/World-Anti-Doping-Program/Sports-and-Anti-Doping-Organizations/Model-Rules--Guidelines/Model-Rules/ ]WADA[/url]link for anyone who might want to have a poke around the rules.
[url= http://www.rtve.es/deportes/20110126/rfec-comunica-a-contador-propuesta-ano-sancion/398445.shtml ]source: RTVE[/url]Según los documentos aportados por la UCI, existen cuatro posibilidades de que el clembuterol puede hallarse en el organismo humano, pero no demuestra que haya sido debido a una práctica de dopaje, mientras que el corredor tampoco demuestra la procedencia de dicha sustancia.
Clearly not a doping offence. 😆
He has a banned substance in his system. What part of strict liability do people not understand. Contaminated beef FFS !
I do feel that people have been looking hard to find something though, given the amount found and the level of testing carried out by the lab that discovered it.
Agree with stuey..he has been given the minimum ban that the spanish auth's thought they could get away with , and this was after being told by WADA etc that they will not tolerate him avoiding a ban.
Look at the sheer number of spanish cyclists that have been done in the last 3 years. Its ridiculous. The spanish auth's are not bothered. The valverde case was laughable. Mosquera's performance in Vuelta was a joke.... too good to be true.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/garcia-sanctioned-proceedings-opened-for-sevilla
And for you Lance lovers....some bed time reading for you.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
interesting if nothing else.
Ok folks, all the people pointing the finger at Lance being a doper, prove it, show me, I mean hard evidence, not heresay, hard factual evidence that would prove he has taken drugs.
Seriously, if you have the evidence front up and prove it.
I am not defending any rider but some of you should just subscribe to Hello and Ok magazine and go onto their forums.
Mosquera's performance in Vuelta was a joke.... too good to be true.
But Nibali's was better even up La Bola del Mundo so clearly he was doping too, . 🙄
Taking responsibility is what's happening now, which bit of the sentence fitting the crime do people not understand?
Which part of if there is no evidence don't people understand?
Hopefully I won't need to take an extra dose of ventolin or take an extra dose accidentally, I'd hate thought of having to explain that to some of you people.... Accidents can and do happen.
Tango Man - HIS URINE HAD RECOMBINANT EPO IN IT
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden <
Nibali is class.....mosquera isnt. I expect top performances from riders who are constantly at the top of GC's . Nibali is thought by many this year to have been the cyclist of the year. Finished 3rd in Giro with a weeks notice that he was riding (due to Pelizotti), won Vuelta , up there at Lombary and was super strong at worlds. Mosquera is shit in comparison.
Weren't Sky with their super strict stance on doping after him in the off season. Absolutely no indication at all that Nibali is a doper.
Lance lovers wont read that link ...
His doctor is a doper
His trainer is a doper
His teammates were dopers
The people he beat were dopers
His blood values indicated he doped
and when they analysed his piss it had dope in it.
but sure, innocent until proven guilty
and his performances suggest power outputs which point to oxygen uptakes in the realms of NeverWonderLand
What a waste of web space.
Why not ban everyone who artificially puts things that aren't natural into their bodies?
I can eat Carbos in silly proportions but thats OK
Whatever the whole thing is waste of time. Its not the drug takers that are spoiling the sport, its the f***ing press.
big jump from a loaf of bread to pharmaceutical products not readily available to most doctors let alone athletes
it's about trying to keep the playing field as level [i]as possible[/i]
mattsccm - Member
What a waste of web space.
Why not ban everyone who artificially puts things that aren't natural into their bodies?
I can eat Carbos in silly proportions but thats OK
No need to ban everyone as suggested , just ban the ones that fail in accordance with the extensive and precise list thats already out.
Bet Kolobnev is happy at missing out on standing on the podium at the Olympic RR due to cheating Rebellin.
Cheats ruin sport ....the press just report it.
Perhaps it isn’t the drug takers who are destroying the sport.
Armstrong was just a teenager when he was on the US junior squad and young athletes were being injected with cortisone and told it was vitamins. Ulrich was a product of the DDR doping system. Pantani was doped from the start (I haven’t read the book) Contador was trained by a doper from an early age. Maybe these people should have been protected, but you get abused people who become abusers and we don’t let them off because of it.
edited a bit
Lets say you are competing in a sport. You know everyone around you is doping but you yourself are clean. Then questions start getting raised in the media as to the methods of people that are beating you who you know are on the sauce. If you are truly innocent of doping you can be damn sure that you would want to blow things out of the water and clean up the sport. The only reason to keep your mouth shut is if you are doing the same thing and don't want to get too much attention.
The vast majority of the to 10 of the Tour for the last 15 years or more have all had serious questions raised against them. The testing procedure is a joke. You only need to hear from people like Kohl, Landis etc to know that the system doesn't work. Even today with quite a few positive tests it's quite often police raids that end up ending dopers careers or getting them banned (Basso, Ulrich etc.)
Anyone who thinks that more than a hand full of people in the current peleton are clean are being naive. The majority are juiced up more than the Tropicana factory. The methods with how they avoid tests are well documented. The average speeds haven't dropped from the time when we know the tour was being ridden by dopers like Vino, Lance, Landis, Lance, Pantani etc.
The rot comes from the powers that be in the sport who protect certain riders like Lance and throw the likes of Rassmussen to the wolves. Why can some riders get away scott free with doping, some serve a ban and come back with everything being forgiven (Millar, Basso) and some have their careers effectivly ended (Ulrich, Rassmussen).
In short I think "Wiggo's" silence speaks volumes. Him posting his blood tests doesn't mean anything. Landis posted his (which were indecently very similar to "Wiggo's") and we know he's a doper. So just because he says he's clean he must be? In that case Lance is as pure as the driven snow and I'm father christmas.
Some good points (not sure Ullrich ever got caught or admitted doping other than there was proof that he visted Fuentes an awful lot of times....either way he has been ruined as a result of that anyway).
Serious question then.... how many of the following do you think arent clean:
cavendish , hushovd , millar , evans , dan martin , ben swift , van de velde, farrer
I would like to think all of them but now wondering whether I am naive. Surely the htc / garmin / sky lads must be racing clean.
Didnt like Wiggo's recent comments but is it simply a case where he has hit the upper echelons of teh sport and doesnt want to ostracise himself.
Ir12 no drug would give you the performance playing field that you describe. There would be a lot more heart attacks etc if that was true across the board
Some good points (not sure Ullrich ever got caught or admitted doping other than there was proof that he visted Fuentes an awful lot of times....either way he has been ruined as a result of that anyway).Serious question then.... how many of the following do you think arent clean:
cavendish , hushovd , millar , evans , dan martin , ben swift , van de velde, farrer
I would like to think all of them but now wondering whether I am naive. Surely the htc / garmin / sky lads must be racing clean.
Didnt like Wiggo's recent comments but is it simply a case where he has hit the upper echelons of teh sport and doesnt want to ostracise himself
Ulrich settled out of court in a few civil and a criminal case in Germany. He has been reported as saying "Anyone who can't put 1 and 1 together about what happened in cycling is beyond my help." I've heard rumours that he is going to write a book but I don't know if he does if it will ever be published in English. Kohls manager has just released a book in German about the human plasma lab in Austria. It would be interesting to read that.
As far as the riders who you listed and questioned their cleanliness. I'm not sure about a lot. I think if Hushovd and Cavendish are it's possibly different programmes to the likes of Armstrong/Schleck/Contador. They don't have to power up a mountain at mach 10. They possibly still use GH or anabolics but I'd have an easier time believing they might be clean than some others.
Evans, I'm not sure. There is a lot of talk about Aldo Sassi wanting to have clean athletes and Evans has never really matched the best in the mountains. Again I'd have an easier time believing he's clean but I wouldn't be surprised if there was questions raised either.
Millar... Mr. Poster boy for clean cycling who was happy enough to cheat until he got caught. Maybe he's clean now. But I don't believe his excuse of only having taken EPO the once at the world champs which he lost.
The others who knows?
It's not the doping that gets me. It's the lies and corruption at all levels of the sport. I wouldn't mind if doping was legal and everyone was tanked. What I hate is people like Lance being holier than though and then being so jacked up the ride Alpine passes like their bikes have a motor.
Ir12 no drug would give you the performance playing field that you describe. There would be a lot more heart attacks etc if that was true across the board
There have been quite a few cases of sudden cardiac death in cycling. Usually amongst athletes that may not have been able to support the same medical support as the likes of the tour top 10. I presume you've heard the stories of athletes waking up at night and pedalling stationary bikes to prevent clots or using infusions to maintain hematocrits under 50. Many riders have personal hematocrit testing machines to monitor their own levels to avoid being pulled out for a Ht over 50 and to reduce the risk of sudden cardiac death. Remember Riis being Mr. 60% he wasn't the only one. The riders are one step ahead of the Dr.s and the Doctors get paid a pretty penny to dope them and keep them alive.
Heck in teams like T-Mobile and Postal/Discovery it was a full team mandated doping policy being controlled by team doctors. This stuff was known by people who did a little looking into it for a long time. What Landis said just confirmed what people suspected all along.
The average speeds haven't dropped from the time when we know the tour was being ridden by dopers like Vino, [s]Lance[/s], Landis, [s]Lance[/s], Pantani etc.
Fixed that for you on the grounds that nothing has ever been proved against Lance.
The rot comes from the powers that be in the sport who protect certain riders like Lance and throw the likes of Rassmussen to the wolves.
The problem is though that if LA had been conclusively proven to have doped, say about the time he was heading for his 6th TdF win, it would have brought down cycling. End of the Tour, end of pro-cycling. Rasmussen though is a nobody and can be thrown out without anybody really caring. LA though is bigger than cycling. You ask a non-cyclist to name a famous cyclist, 90% of the time the answer will be Lance Armstrong.
Fixed that for you on the grounds that nothing has ever been proved against Lance.
Back dated TUE for cortisone? Is well documented. Any other cyclist would have gone through a hearing for that no question asked.
On top of that there is the whole issue of paying Hein Verbruggen off to make a positive in the 2002 tour to go away.
Mechanic finding doping products in his apartment in Spain.
Being involved in a US Olympic team that it seems has been involved with some sort of systematic doping.
I presume you did read this article.
Nearly all of the stories in this article I have heard from different sources in the past. The one about Caitlin being involved in covering up positive testosterone results makes me sick. He runs the drug testing programme for the supposedly clean Garmin team.
With the level of curroption at the moment maybe it will take "bringing cycling down" and starting fresh with a no tolerance attitude to doping... or totally legal doping. None of this in between rubbish where you scratch my back and we'll let it slide politics.
Tango Man - HIS URINE HAD RECOMBINANT EPO IN IT
These are the '99 samples that they re-tested in 2005, if I am correct, the ones they believe to belong to Lance Armstrong, as there was no way to positively link them to him
Try again
Tango - no =- positivity his and positively with epo in them. He has tried to make out there are irregularities in the testing and they are not his but read the link.
However as a retrospective test it has no liability attached and as there was no test for EPO at teh time then he is in the cleear from this legally.
read the link
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden <
cavendish , hushovd , millar , evans , dan martin , ben swift , van de velde, farrer
Hmm, good question.
I honestly think the young brits bought up by british cycling will be dope free. Cav has always been so anti doping in interviews I'd like he think he's clear, but who knows... The others, you can't say, hushovd, seems to have transitioned very smoothly from a sprinter into classics rider, suspicious? I don't know.
va der velde and farrer come from Garmin and they had a very strict anti doping stance, but you don't know if thats just for the press do you?
tango, you haven't read it have you
warton.....its a tricky question. Evans has always been good but always has a bad day and always looks like he is suffering. I would say he's clean. In fact , all of that list I would like to think are clean. As for Miller, dont like him but he had good season this year. Boonen is going the way of Hushovd .... becoming less of a sprinter and more of a pure classics rider. would expect a lot of french riders to be clean purely on the grounds that they no longer win anything and have a strict national fed.
Tango man - read the 'kin article (typical)
No sportsman trancends the sport to the point that they are untouchable. Sure, TDF enjoyed unprecendented popularity during Lance years(how many other races did lance win/ride since Cancer) and no doubt the UCI benefitted financially. Why kill the cash cow. No doubt payments to the UCI etc helped in their decision making. Lets not forget the French couldnt stand him, even in his pomp, and rumours were circulating as early as his 2nd tour win. I still cant believe people think he was clean.
Tango man ..........read the article.
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/sep/20/athletics.sport ]Read the article[/url]
If you are truly innocent of doping you can be damn sure that you would want to blow things out of the water and clean up the sport. The only reason to keep your mouth shut is if you are doing the same thing and don't want to get too much attention
I disagree, for one the omerta is still enforced in the peloton but mainly it's the fact that pro cycling is a team sport. If you're a clean domestique and you know a couple of star riders in your team are doping then you'd be mad to speak out against doping. You'll end up without a contract and given so many team managers have a dodgy background you'll never get the chance of another pro contract again.
I'd like to think most of the one day riders are clean, Cavendish for one struggles a lot at a times and relies on being dragged to the last 100m using as little energy as possible. Millar I don't really care about - he shouldn't still be cycling IMO (although granted when he was cheating it was knowing only a 2 year ban could be given so he shouldn't retrospectively be banned for life. Cancellara is a bit of a grey area, I really hope he's clean as I'm a big fan in the way he rides, but it's hard to see how he can be so dominant so often. It will be interesting if he's serious about wanting to go for a grand tour overall result and slims down etc.