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Without them there is a glimmer of a chance for peace or at least a period of quiet.
and what peace would that be?
i mean what would it entail?
what would that peace mean for the Palestinians?
would they have all the restrictions lifted?
would all the arrested/detained Palestinians be released?
would the suffering and humiliation of the Palestinians be put to an end?
would that which has been taken away from the Palestinian people be given back to them?
would that include Gaza being rebuilt?
as wrong as Hamas were...and quite rightly they should be held accountable for their actions/inactions during this conflict, will the Israeli government allow itself to be held to the same accountability for its actions?
will this peace change the public opinion of Palestinians by the Israeli public?
or will that be irrelevant so long as Israel is not getting rockets fired at it anymore??
Food and water and other supplies would be allowed in and policied by the international forces and by the PA.
@gonzy it would be a start. I think life is better in the West Bank than Gaza. With Hamas in place the border to Egypt and Israel is going to remain largely shut.
@crankboy - see my earlier posting on casualties, the vast majority are adult male seems likely to me they are militants or assisting militants.
From the Guardian (seems Hamas acknowledge the airstikes are well targetted, hence the execution of 18. The imam doesn't sound too impartial either, not too hard to imagine rockets stored under his mosque ?
[i]The killings triggered swift condemnation from Palestinian and international human rights organisations. Raji al-Surani, the director of the Gaza-based Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, said: "We demand the [Palestinian Authority] and the resistance [militant groups] to intervene to stop these extra-judicial executions, no matter what the reasons and the motives are."
Pictures showed a group of men, with their heads covered and hands tied behind their backs, kneeling against a wall. Masked Hamas fighters dressed in black and armed with AK47s pushed to them to the ground before shooting them.
The mosque's imam asked worshippers to inform Hamas security officials about anyone suspected of behaving strangely, or asking about fighters. "We have to protect our mujahideen [fighters] and back them, not let the Zionist occupation [Israel] easily target them as happened in Rafah with commanders," he said.
A notice attached to a wall detailed the charges against one suspect. It said he or she had provided "information to the enemy on the places of mujahideen [fighters], standing positions, tunnels, the places of explosive devices, and their houses and rockets", allowing Israel to target its airs trikes. "And upon that the justice revolutionary verdict was implemented."[/i]
jambalaya - MemberFood and water and other supplies would be allowed in and policied by the international forces and by the PA.
As long as they can overrule Israel's restrictions, that could work. ie, remove restrictions on dual use, and take the Strip off the diet. Reopen the fisheries and FFS, stop pretending that restricting[i] exports [/i]is anything to do with preventing terrorism. Legitimise the blockade, essentially, and make it do what Israel's always claimed it's for, rather than being punitive.
Further evidence of infighting and power struggle in Gaza has grown with 18 people reportedly executed by Hamas for collaboration with Israel.
Hardly "evidence of infighting", Israel has always had its informers, that doesn't represent infighting - just what money and/or blackmail can achieve.
And I don't know what you mean by "further", this whole Israeli bloodbath in which hundreds of innocent civilians were slaughtered was instigated by the Zionists precisely because they were horrified to see a US backed rapprochement between Fatah and Hamas, the Israelis hate the thought of Palestinian unity.
Presumably you do too with your false allegations of infighting.
Whatever the pretext used by Israel the aim of the attack on Gaza was to isolate Hamas and sow disunity.
However in the past when Israel has attacked Gaza and bombed the crap out of it slaughtering countless of innocent civilians, it has resulted in increased support for Hamas. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest this latest attack will provide a different result.
Not altogether surprising as it can only increase hatred of Israel, which is exactly what it has done throughout the world.
Jambalaya - once again you've failed to respond to the fact that Israel was founded on terrorism, truck bombs, letter bombs, assassinations - are these not terrorist actions? Are you anti terrorist or not? It must be hard squaring this cicle in your mind. What are your thought on you terrorist founders? Were their actions justified, do the ends justify the means, what are your thoughts?
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^ You with the cute eyes, stop this humour, it's the weekend, time for serious and prolonged debate 😀
I'm glad the IDF are protecting the poor innocent civilians of Israel
(most of whom have served or will serve for the IDF)
by sniping innocent Gazan's who might have seen a 'terrorist' once:
If the Israeli air strikes are well targeted and kill 250 children in two months it is a bit hard to argue that the IDF do not deliberately kill civilians. The IDF used human shields over 1200 times but only one died which suggests that Hama's have greater respect for innocent lives.
You couldn't make it up, could you ? Night after night the Israelis talk about Hamas using human shields (to explain away the massive death toll) when Israel itself has been doing the very same thing, and has been found guilty of illegally doing so by it's own courts, and the government wants to overturn the decision!! I shouldn't be gobsmacked, but I am.
Jambalaya did you watch Richard Kemp in your link while supporting the IDF's actions he did say "I don't have any of the detail I don't know all of the facts " . so in favour of the IDF re targeting of civilans we have Kemp against the IDF we have the facts the figures and the accounts of serving IDF soldiers .
that dog will generate enough lift to take off any second
Wonder what Camoron has to say about this:
Using three cases of murder as justification for massive expansion of settlements is beyond cynical.
No. There is no conflict as the establishment of Israel was not an act of terrorism. Since it's inception Israel has faced numerous military attempts to destroy it, these have been repelled and peace agreements signed and honoured. One day Palestinian will join that list.
Think you need to read up on some history jambalaya.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
'Lehi and the Irgun were jointly responsible for the massacre in Deir Yassin. Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne, British Minister Resident in the Middle East, and made many other attacks on the British in Palestine.[19] On May 29, 1948, the government of Israel, having inducted its activist members into the Tzahal, formally disbanded Lehi, though some of its members carried out one more terrorist act, the assassination of Folke Bernadotte some months later,[20] an act condemned by Bernadotte's replacement as mediator, Ralph Bunche.[21] Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949. In 1980, Israel instituted a military decoration in "award for activity in the struggle for the establishment of Israel," the Lehi ribbon.[22] Former Lehi leader Yitzhak Shamir became Prime Minister of Israel in 1983.'
So it seems terrorism is sometimes acceptable, or even to be applauded.
I've let this thread issue lie as I thought it best. There have been quite a lot of developments including a Hamas exile in Turkey claiming responsibility for the kidnapping, denied by Hamas in Gaza. More executions in Gaza.
@jive the PM was pretty balanced on Israel during his statement yesterday (I listened to it all), both he and Milliband re-iterated Israel's right to defend itself against rockets and re-iterated that Hamas was a terrorist organisation. But he was also critical of the land seizure saying it was certainly counterproductive with regard to negotiations for a long term peace.
Personally I think the seizure was intended to send a strong message to the Palestinians that the cost of the conflict to them was significant, not just to Hamas in Gaza but also more broadly. A show of strength. The Israeli's have already apprehended one individual and demolished his home and that of another West Bank resident identified as the culprits for the kidnapping. Israel (and most international participants) want to see the Palestinian Authority regain control. It was reported that the Israeli PM and Abbas met secretly in Jordon recently. I could see the return of the recently seized land as being part of a negotiation.
There is also the issue that there are those in the Israeli government who felt the action in Gaza should have continued, the land seizure is in responce to that.
I find this website very good for the region in general by the way [url= http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/home.html ]Al-Monitor[/url]
Personally I think the seizure was intended to send a strong message to the Palestinians that the cost of the conflict to them was significant, not just to Hamas in Gaza but also more broadly. A show of strength.
Or 'collective punishment' as its referred to in the Geneva convention, where its deemed illegal?
[i]already apprehended one individual and demolished his home and that of another West Bank resident identified as the culprits for the kidnapping[/i]
In the absence of a trial do they just throw these 'culprits' in a pond and see if they float?
In the absence of a trial do they just throw these 'culprits' in a pond and see if they float?
It'd have to be a pond in Israel, as Palestine doesn't have enough water.
Results of Israeli precision air strikes in todays New York Times;
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But he was also critical of the land seizure saying it was certainly counterproductive with regard to negotiations for a long term peace.
With stuff like this no wonder Putin will be annexing the Ukraine next week.
@Leku - Russia has Crimera now, it will never be giving it back
@waswas - not sure where that is but the town of Beit Hanoun was the source of the majority of the attack tunnels so they have pretty much flattened the whole place. It may well not be rebuilt which Israel will regard as a victory as it will be very hard to reconstruct the tunnels without the cover of the residential buildings.
Hamas knew the conflict would end like this (in terms of death and destruction) but it didn't stop them firing hundreds of rockets from Jan to June 2014 to provoke Israel. Their target all along was to try and weaken Israels support from the West
By the way I read an interesting piece yesterday about how Egypt is forcably evicting the residents along the Gaza border and flattening their properties as the area is full of tunnels and they want to try and control the amount of arms smuggling so will be building listening stations and floodlighting the area
[url= http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/08/rafah-egypt-army-destruction-houses-residents-compensation.html ]Egypt - Rafa[/url]
And those extremist right wing Israelis that kidnapped and burnt to death the Palestinian teengaer, will they be having their homes demolished as well? Probably not 🙄
Jambalaya so killing a thousand innocents is OK as long as you get one terrorist in the process ?
OK, soooo, back to paedophile spy rings;
I appreciate the concept sounds bonkers, but given Elm Guest House, Kincora and strong suggestions that the home office has something to hide on Jersey, I've been doing plenty of delving. Amongst the various interesting tidbits I've found, this really stands out:
http://brynalynvictims.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/andrea-davidson-speaks-out-north-wales.html
Of course, I can't personally verify all allegations presented, but the statement above has been presented to the Macur review:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22941356
Hard to fathom the evil that would allow this, but as we've seen, people in power are prepared to go to war for their own gain; human lives are just another commodity.
@waswas - not sure where that is but the town of Beit Hanoun was the source of the majority of the attack tunnels so they have pretty much flattened the whole place. It may well not be rebuilt which Israel will regard as a victory as it will be very hard to reconstruct the tunnels without the cover of the residential buildings.
Jesus, your more of a scumbag than I previously thought.
It does make you wonder why they the isrealites (woahwoah) don't just move countries .l
To somewhere ike ireland surely a diplomatic solution give northern ireland to the isrealis, problem solved in the middle east, America can keep funding everybody all in one place ,all the money can be sent to one simple location from europe , previously I saw someone mentioned relocating israel to america but that just sucks as an idea I feel
It does make you wonder why they the isrealites (woahwoah) don't just move countries .l
for the same reason the Palestinians don't.
Jesus, your more of a scumbag than I previously thought.
quite so.
Is Jambalaya on a pilot program?
[i]
In a campaign to improve its image abroad, the Israeli government plans to provide scholarships to hundreds of students at its seven universities in exchange for their making pro-Israel Facebook posts and tweets to foreign audiences.
The students making the posts will not reveal online that they are funded by the Israeli government, according to correspondence about the plan revealed in the Haaretz newspaper[/i]
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html[/url]
I think its a lot more likely Jambalaya is a recruiter for Hamas.
Jesus, your more of a scumbag than I previously thought.
Really ? How so ? Because I pointed out that the Israelis have flattened a residential area used (abused) by Hamas ? The place was riddled with attack tunnels built under residential buildings, mosques, schools etc ? The tunnels start in a building and then run many kilometers under many other buildings with multiple entrances and exits. Plus during the ground attack there was house to house fighting with Hamas exiting tunnels are various points to ambush the Israelis with anti-tank missiles. When you get that sort of fighting the place is going to get decimated. When the Israeli's destroy the tunnels there is going to be further material damage. They published some maps of the locations of rocket launches etc and then a second map of where they bombed and the two matched pretty much exactly. Did you see the France 24 video of rocket launchers next to the UN building/hotel where the journalists where staying, the one where they fired the rocket right over his head during a live piece to camera ? Those rockets haven't been moved a large distance to that firing point they have been stored in the adjacent buildings. 3000 rockets equals 1000+ launching sites ? That's many many targets and storage locations.
Hamas could have avoided all this by not provoking a conflict by spending the first 6 months of 2014 firing more and more rockets. If you instigate a conflict against a much more powerful enemy this is how its going to end.
@binners I guess the Israelis will wait and see what happens in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine for example before worrying too much about whether the seizure breaches the Geneva Convention or not. As I said I expect the land seized will be an item for discussion in any peace settlement. Its a strong signal, you fight with us, you will inevitably lose and you will end up with less.
Interesting comparison with the Crimea Jambalaya. Ironically, Putin has a much more legitimate claim to Crimea. Steve Bell picked up on it in yesterdays Guardian....
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Have you found a breakdown of the rocket attacks that supports that bar chart yet, Jambalya?
Hamas could have avoided all this by not provoking a conflict by spending the first 6 months of 2014 firing more and more rockets. If you instigate a conflict against a much more powerful enemy this is how its going to end.
3 murders, committed by unknown assailants were the actual given reason for this conflict - the PM called for 'vengeance' I believe - and that's apparently reasonable justification for killing and injuring thousands of civilians, destroying thousands of homes, and grabbing huge swathes of land to build illegal settlements.
And you wonder why people call you a scumbag when you consistently defend this kind of behaviour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
[s]Hamas[/s] Israel could have avoided all this by not provoking a conflict by illegally grabbing land
FTFY.
"Israel could have avoided all this by not provoking a conflict by illegally grabbing land"
That really is the heart of this , but that is in part our fault for giving in to the original Israeli terrorists and giving them a " homeland " on someone else's land if we had dealt with them the way that now treat Hammas would we now have this intractable problem? Obviously if we had done what Israel does and lumped the terrorists together with the wider Jewish population we would have been no better than the Nazis we had just defeated.
"Israel could have avoided all this by not provoking a conflict by illegally grabbing land"
That really is the heart of this , but that is in part our fault for giving in to the original Israeli terrorists and giving them a " homeland " on someone else's land if we had dealt with them the way that now treat Hammas would we now have this intractable problem? Obviously if we had done what Israel does and lumped the terrorists together with the wider Jewish population we would have been no better than the Nazis we had just defeated.
Speaking of Nazis, strange just how influential the Bush Family have been on history:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
not forgetting the profits made in 2 generations of war in Iraq.
Strange how U.S. and UK have such close links to Israel and on foreign policy in general...
Whoa now:
http://www.wrexham.com/news/ten-wrexham-councillors-leave-labour-group-47563.html
may be relevant with reference to this:
OK, soooo, back to paedophile spy rings;I appreciate the concept sounds bonkers, but given Elm Guest House, Kincora and strong suggestions that the home office has something to hide on Jersey, I've been doing plenty of delving. Amongst the various interesting tidbits I've found, this really stands out:
http://brynalynvictims.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/andrea-davidson-speaks-out-north-wales.html
Of course, I can't personally verify all allegations presented, but the statement above has been presented to the Macur review:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22941356
Hard to fathom the evil that would allow this, but as we've seen, people in power are prepared to go to war for their own gain; human lives are just another commodity.
Cameron's words on ISIS today. Israel feels just the same way about Hamas.
[i]This country will never give into terrorism. The only was to defeat it is to stand firm, a county like ours will not be cowered by these barbaric cowards. If they think we will weaken in the face of their threats they are mistaken, we will be more forthright
[/i]
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29040550 ]BBC: Cameron Statement[/url]
To sell weapons, what kind of advertising is used to create a market?
Steven Sotloff?
James Foley?
Lee Rigby?
Given Sotloff's dual US/Israeli citizenry, will Netanyahu be readying Israels vast US funded arsenal for a 'reasonable response'?
Is the JIDF real?
@Lifer the data came from the IDF as you know. There is also the Wiki source you gave and there is information on the Arab news website Al-Monitor - they reported 130 rockets in March alone, this was the figure the Palastianians claimed to have fired. As I said in response to your post whether you take the IDF numbers or the ones you gave either are sufficient to justify a response. Then we have the extensive network of 30+ attack tunnels, that in itself warrants a response.
Did you see the link I posted to how the Egyptians are clearing houses/land in Rafa on the border with Gaza to strengthen their blockade to prevent Hamas rearming and building a network of influence on the Egpytian side of the border ?
No I don't know, there's only a bar-chart.
Link to the Al-Monitor article please I can't find it.
[i]how the Egyptians are clearing houses/land in Rafa on the border with Gaza to strengthen their blockade[/i]
because the US threatened to remove aid payments if they didn't.
Soltoff is a very very brave man to have gone into Syria to cover the war there.
@wwaswas - Egypt made their own mind up about Hamas, as soon as they took power in Gaza they shut the border. Egypt wants to see the PA in control in Gaza, it is doing all it can to squeeze out Hamas.
By the way the US funds the UNWRA to the tune of $250m pa, almost all of this is spent on Palestinians including in Gaza (29,500 employees).
[i]almost all of this is spent on Palestinians including in Gaza[/i]
It'll be all those repairs to facilities the Israelis have bombed...
It has been confirmed Sotloff was a joint Israeli / US citizen and Jewish. Extra-ordinarily brave for him to travel to Syria to cover the civil war there and the suffering of the population.
[url= http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/09/steven-sotloff-hid-israeli-citizenship-from-isis.html?mid=twitter_nymag ]New Yorker Magazine[/url]