A long time ago now so I don't recall how it was done, I used to root my Android phone. It would allow remote wipe software to think it could remote wipe when it couldn't.
I don't root anymore as it's not secure for banking apps. Plus my phone gets synced to the cloud so it wouldn't really matter if it was remote wiped.
I now consider all my work contacts to be personal contacts for the progression of my career for whomever I may be employed by and so am no longer precious about using my personal device like I was 10 years ago.
Work is very give and take for me and as I'm not direct customer facing this approach works well.
I have a company email address so that I can receive emails directly, both to do with HR and policy stuff, and for staff information like offers for tickets to sponsored events, etc, which I don’t have a problem with. I also have 2FA, and the Google Authenticator as well. I’ve also got phone numbers for some other members of staff, should I, or they, need to get in contact urgently. It doesn’t get abused, and I think that if someone did start to ‘over-use’ the facility, words might be had.
I would not, however, agree to having business software put on my phone for their convenience; they can give me a phone for that specific purpose, and in fact we are all given tablets for work use, if they get damaged, they’re replaced, simple as that. I have no issues with carrying two devices, I used to bring my tablet home with me, because under previous management they were in short supply, people would forget to put them on charge, or damage them, then just help themselves to whatever one was handy that worked, and if I was on a late shift, I’d often arrive at work to find nothing but broken of shonky tablets left, which impeded my ability to do my job, which was taking the piss.
Now we all have tablets, they’re being treated with more respect, and we now leave them at work, so that IT can monitor them and more easily run diagnostics and updates over the business wifi, so I’m happy to leave it at work.
The nature of the work we do is such that very few people could work from home anyway, so the question doesn’t really arise; I think that Tom, our HR guy, is one of the few who does, but he lives close enough he walks to work anyway!
And as a new dad, it’s something that gives him a good work/home balance as well.
This is simple. If your employer requires you to have tools in order for you to be able to do your job then they should be providing you with those tools. End of discussion, next question?
Yes, an MFA app is generally innocuous, there's little harm in you installing (say) Google Authenticator onto your personal phone. And indeed, that's exactly what I did. The problem is that it sets a precedence. Today it's an authentication app; tomorrow it's email; the day after it's Teams and by the way we'll need to take control of your handset for security purposes (which as PJ says, they absolutely should).
There's little harm but, why should you? I'm paying for a mobile phone contract for my own benefit, not everyone else's. I learned this the hard way like 20 years ago, I thought "great, work are providing me with a phone, I'll save a fortune!" right up until I started getting calls from staff at sparrowfart on a Sunday morning wanting help in getting a game working on their home computer.
At the very least, if you're expected to use your personal phone for work purposes then I'd expect a contribution towards the bill.
@Cougar what if you need the MFA app so you can work from home? Would you refuse and request a work device, or just go into the office?
We had that situation, a handful of employees requested MFA codes sent to their desk phones, then realised that was stupid and switched to their mobiles so they could work from home.
To be fair our lot had MFA on appropriate devices before working from home gate.
When it was mandated to work from home the it department was fully set up for remote working.
That said it's the sort of thing I might do short term but in much the same way I made do with a shitty desk and chair for a month - 6 weeks when the end wasn't insight I put in a request for a desk chair keyboard mouse and my monitor set up from the office.
what if you need the MFA app so you can work from home? Would you refuse and request a work device, or just go into the office?
As above, I installed it on my personal phone for my own convenience. If work were mandating it then they can provide me with appropriate equipment.
If I'm a home worker and work requires 2FA then again, they need to facilitate that. "You have to provide your own personal smartphone or come in to the office" is insufficient reason to deny your legal right to Flexible Working.
I'm fully with Cougar on this and I think there's a lot of companies are burying their head in the sand at the moment with regard to working from home, because you know Covid. That was fine in mid 2020, but it's still going on and there really is no end in site, plus lots of businesses are seriously considering blended working without considering the implications. Absolutely my phone is my phone, it's not for work. I think there will big issues in future over works station setup etc. How many people have a compliant work space, adjustable chair, monitor, keyboard position etc.
Yeah, that's a whole other argument. An employer's responsibility for the health & safety of their workers doesn't change with regards to home workers.
My employer offers home workers something like fifty quid apiece towards a chair and a desk. My setup cost considerably more than that, I do wonder whether legally they should be on the hook for more.
How many people have a compliant work space, adjustable chair, monitor, keyboard position etc.
My employer works in occupational health and I've created content with doctors and physios addressing the risks to health around WFH.
They sent me the worst office chair I've ever sat on.
😀
A little while ago we got a refresh in the old office, new chairs throughout. I googled the model name, the first or second hit was "winner of 'world's most uncomfortable office chair' three years running." 😁
I used to work for a company that didn't provide me with any means of emailing.
This was fine until one of the bellends in the office started constantly sending me work related emails to my own email address and copying customers in.
After I'd replied to a few saying please stop doing this I just started deleting them unopened.
A few weeks after this I was told that I needed to change the layout of my emails so that they contained all of the company info and logo.
Told them to do one as I saw no reason why I should be using my own stuff for anything work related.
After a couple of heated conversations with my boss all of us service guys received new work phones with company emails set up ready on them.
Some people just try it on if you let them.
my places gives us £600 a year for office furniture...
I am in the position where I have a company supplied mobile laptop and tablet to allow me to do my job. So not only from the union side, but also from “ my work” side, I think it is unreasonable to ask an employee to load any work apps etc to a personal phone. It doesn’t matter if it’s something harmless or whatever. “Since you loaded this can you load that…” a personal phone is just that. The argument of unreasonable to buy everyone a phone to WFH, I also don’t get. The job has changed (due to external factors but still) so the tools required to do the job has to change.
A company has a duty to provide you with the tools required to do your job. Due to current WFH guidance the company should set up whatever is needed to allow you to WFH if your job role is suitable.
Bit cheeky if you ask me.
I have an iPhone provided by work, but my personal phone is genuinely a Nokia 3310. I would be pushing back on that personally and saying that if they require 2FA or similar on a smartphone then they should be providing the smartphone or alternative method.
I'm torn as really disliked having to carry two phones around. Did it for a previous job with a big american corp (so full suite of end user monitoring). Phone and app designers have spend billions making this into the 1 device that will do everything in your life....and then your employer makes you carry a second.
On the other hand I wouldn't want oversight of App usage, location etc. Currently use my personal phone for just work emails via outlook app so relatively separate to native and I can change notifications for holidays etc.
I'd have to say no. But only as I have an old 16gb iPhone se. To add another app I have to delete one first due to a lack of space.
So would be a reasonable case not to.
Otherwise I wouldn't mind being as I use personal apps on my work phone and my personal phone is an old work phone I repaired.
my places gives us £600 a year for office furniture…
You'll be ease to know that the Civil Service are nowhere near that generous. Neither do they pay the cost of extending g your house to fit compliant stuff in either, the other wfh issue that's often ignored, especially if more than one of you are doing it.
But I'm totally with Cougar here - you want me to access work stuff other than the office, then you need to give me the kit
I’m torn as really disliked having to carry two phones around. Did it for a previous job with a big american corp (so full suite of end user monitoring). Phone and app designers have spend billions making this into the 1 device that will do everything in your life….and then your employer makes you carry a second.
+1
My personal S10e can carry two SIMS. I'm starting a new Job in January and with my new employer yet to confirm my new phone has been ordered, am tempted to offer them a second-SIM number. I'm in Sales so this also means I can take this number with me if I leave, as I own it.
No idea how this works for 2FA though, and nervous of a mate who likes to send some "dodgy" videos via WhatsApp once in a while.... I don't need those appearing accidentally in front of a client.
Do they expect you to wear your own clothes for work, too?
Do they expect you to wear your own clothes for work, too?
🤣
Fair point.
As said I don't see the issue with using a mainstream 2fa client to access work stuff as long as that's all it is.
But I’m totally with Cougar here – you want me to access work stuff other than the office, then you need to give me the kit
Did he actually say anywhere that work have refused ?
I saw he said "work have asked...." but not recalling anything about the possibility of them saying no or causing issues.
Devil's advocate: do we know they've offered?
If this is ultimately all about the ability to work from home, flexible working etc etc, should the company also be contributing to your internet bill?
With MFA being recommended for basically everything these days, does it not just become like the expectation that the password for work is not ‘password123’? Yes it’s inconvenient having to remember a 20 character password that changes every 30 days, but we do it in the name of security.
Well...
My wife’s employer asked her to load an app onto her personal phone so that she could do one particular part of her job; they didn’t provide her with a work phone.
She’s now afraid to upgrade her (slowly deteriorating) phone in case she can’t get the app into her new phone. There will come a time when she can’t put it off any longer. Then what? Will she be unable to do that particular part of her job, or will they see sense & provide her with ALL of the tools she needs to do her job? I’m not putting any money on it
I would expect that if the company expects you to install something on your phone to support your work, that they would support the installation and management of it where required. If you replace or update the phone and the app no longer works for any reason, that should not be your problem.
On the flexible working front the gov website says this:
An employer can refuse an application if they have a good business reason for doing so.
I would assume a good business reason for refusal would be ‘employee refuses to use an app that dramatically improves the security of company systems/applications, though it would be dead interesting to see a legal case around this.
should the company also be contributing to your internet bill?
I get an extra £26 or so a month for WFH. The wife also WFH gets £150 per year in a lump sum. That covers the internet and then some. We do need a new office chair and I'm wondering if they'll cover that as well.
I would assume a good business reason for refusal would be ‘employee refuses to use an app that dramatically improves the security of company systems/applications, though it would be dead interesting to see a legal case around this.
Employee hasn't refused to use it though has he . Employees refused to install it on a personal device.
should the company also be contributing to your internet bill?
Many do. Others are entitled to the tax break for wfh expenses also.
Do they expect you to wear your own clothes for work, too?
Not if the clothing is a requirement of the job, ie. branded or PPE.
It's going to be interesting to watch what this all pans out like over the next 18 months. If working from home becomes a non-contractual perk in the future (which I suspect it will for a lot of people) I don't think it unreasonable for an employer to expect you to set up your own workspace and ensure you have a decent broadband connection. If you can't or won't do this then the employer needs to provide full facilities in the office, that's the basis nearly all of us were employed on. If you take a new job in the future then terms and conditions can be agreed then. For me though using personal devices for work is a non starter, I use my work phone during working hours and my phone at other times, it helps me keep work and home separate. When I do carry 2 phones it's not the end of the world.
You are being That guy.
download it and move on.
should the company also be contributing to your internet bill?
I thought most did? Plus you can claim some random tax break for WFH.
it’s inconvenient having to remember a 20 character password that changes every 30 days, but we do it in the name of security.
and
Regular password changing harms rather than improves security
Tell`em to shove their shitty ****ung job
I think an authenticator app is a reasonable ask, regardless of the quality of a employer-employee relationship. No communication, device admin or remote wipe.
I don't see the issue. Except that I don't get reliable coverage on my phone, so every time I have to do this kind of thing I have to run outside and hope to get the pin code before it's invalidated.
In previous jobs i'd have multiple lines routing to my mobile (which work provided and paid the bills for) - at one time i had six different freephone numbers routing to me. Luckily i had a desk phone with multiple lines and by forwarding through from them I'd know which project number was being called. Still got a bit confusing from time to time.
it’s inconvenient having to remember a 20 character password that changes every 30 days, but we do it in the name of security.
Nah, everyone at our place has the 10 or 15 required passwords on a post-it note on the bottom edge of the monitor.
Then again, our IT infrastructure is so ineffective that we can't achieve anything on it so I can't imagine criminals or terrorists having any more luck.
One of my colleagues has his laptop stolen from his car. It was soon found dumped against the wheel of a car a bit further down the road. Of it had not been in a laptop bag, they'd probably not have bothered.
Work won't allow me to make personal phone calls on a work landline so...
This is simple. If your employer requires you to have tools in order for you to be able to do your job then they should be providing you with those tools. End of discussion, next question?
Says a white collar worker.
Our eldest is a mechanic, probably got £10k of tools - his employer relies on him using his tools. In fact a couple of weeks ago he had a stand-up row with his Boss as they needed a specific Land Rover tool for a job, and his Boss thought he should buy it. He didn't.
Nah, everyone at our place has the 10 or 15 required passwords on a post-it note on the bottom edge of the monitor.
+1
Says a white collar worker.
It’s not a race to the bottom, as your son demonstrated by not buying the tool required.
Presumably your son also claims against his tool purchases via paye.
That actually makes the point you mention - his boss wants him to do a job but won't provide the tools to do it.
Our eldest is a mechanic, probably got £10k of tools – his employer relies on him using his tools.
His wage reflects him supplying tools.... He gets his tax back on it too.
Wage for a mechanic tools supplied is generally lower for a given skill set. Than mechanic supplied tools.
My wife manages Kia dealerships, they get audited every year to make sure they have all the necessary tools required to work on their cars. Huge list of stuff they have to have, every one of which is checked. If something is missing / can't be found, they'll be sent a new one and billed for it!
Wage for a mechanic tools supplied is generally lower for a given skill set. Than mechanic supplied tools
It's probably why car mechanics are so good at fabricating 'special tools'.
In my trade, generally you supply your own hand tools.
Power tools, special tools, laptops, PPE and access equipment by the company.
If they want to get hold of you and not be ignored, then a phone too...
We have a credit card and the rule is, if you need it to do a job, buy it. Just don't take the piss.
Says a white collar worker.
Our eldest is a mechanic,
Point stands. They're taking the piss.
How did he get into that profession in the first place? He ran out, spent ten grand on tools, then started work on his CV?
If they're factoring "tool allowance" into his remuneration package then it might be a different affair. But it still seems mad, what happens next week when someone else gets a similar job in and needs the same specialist tool? Is the lad expected to share? Because bollocks to that if he's paid for it out of his own pocket, I'm far from a professional mechanic and I've been bitten once too often in loaning out tools only to have screwdrivers come back having been used as a crowbar or a drift.
Em, can your work not give you a USB authentication device (such as a yubikey?) to do MFA? Only cost about £45 with no real management required
Yep ours did the same, for you to be able to login to o365 MFA and OKTA you need an app. To be fair we don’t now as most employees have work phones but it was the move to o365 where we as IT basically had to say to users if you wouldn’t mind installing this app on your personal phone, many were fine, few were not and one guy (who works in IT) didn’t have a mobile phone at all.....!