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I know two people who will never work again and are on serious prescription drugs to try and help them after years on heavy dope smoking.
Both have has psycotic episodes, both are next to no good to anyone. In both cases, modern and very strong cannabis is the likely culprit.
Been "around" it all my life and occasionally had to odd puff but never that interested. Haven't puffed on anything for about five years and don't plan to.
I think traditional stuff is fine but modern skunk and others are just too strong and laced with all kinds of nasties - avoid. It's not cool and it's not clever.
Loads do coke down here - never tried it, never will.
m_f. That is my point exactly, 30 years of recreational smoking is no worse then 30 years of social drinking is it not?
With no medical background and just a gut instinct to follow - I guess not.
I have some serious stories to tell my kids when they get older...
As in 'seriously don't do it kids' or 'seriously, this was well funny this time I was off my tits...'?
And I agree with surf-mat - tried some bits very occassionally (dope, skunk, 'rooms) but have never (and have refused it when pressured) tried coke and would never ever try it.
Cannabis has changed so much in the last 10 years, smoking some black i would say is pretty harmless, caning strong skunk is going to really mess you up. Are ther long term effects of smoking dope IMO yes there are. It was my drug of choice for 15 years and I am glad I stopped, enjoyed it immensly but there just comes a time.
Went out with a chick who was a coke fiend, it was like going out with 4 different people at once. Nasty drug which funds nasty people to do nasty things. If someone is a coke head just walk away unless you are looking for a lot of lies lies and more lies.
A few posters have commented on the long term symptoms, not to the user but, to the rest of us and this is a fair point.
Both drugs are illegal and the use of them supports illegal activity which goes all the way from petty crime to murder. Happy to tell that to your kids loddrik?
Whatever the arguments about the desirability of future legalisation, illegal drug use is not an abstract moral issue. It's deeply antisocial and selfish.
I live with a cannabis user (shared house) and a previous girlfriend was a moderately heavy user.
Both of them are/were warm and lovely people while they were smoking, but then impossible people the morning after a session- angry, irritable,paranoid stressy, and neurotic tidy freaks. Both could/can hold down full time jobs etc. It's just those back home who have to bear the brunt of it. Is there any sort of help / guidelines out there for folk who live with folk who smoke too much weed?
gritty shaker, unfortunately alot of the things that are in this world lead to murder and petty crime etc. Just because a drug is illegal doiesn't mean that it is more responsible for murder then lets say the perfectly legal production of guns and ordanence, for example.
Most of the damage caused by illegal drugs could be mitgated by simply legalising them. Some people are going to go downhill no matter what, and many of these will take drugs. In most cases they will deteriorate whether they take drugs or not. In my view we need to take the so called moral objection out of drug legislation, allow people to make their own choices, and focus on harm reduction where appropriate. Oh and tell the truth rather than made up scaremongering and sacking our own experts when they say something we dont like.
Your justification is shaky alex222.
You're right that lots of things lead to murder and petty crime and correct to question whether illegal drugs are more responsible than other factors.
I don't see that either of these points are justification for adding to the sum of human misery through illegal drug taking.
By not taking illegal drugs one is also not contributing to other illegal activity. By taking them one is.
PS - I agree with some of the points made about legalisation and its potential to reduce risk and also about not sacking experts and harm reduction.
However, when one makes a conscious choice to buy an illegal drug one is also making a choice to support a whole range of other illegal and unpleasant activities.
My "moral objection" is not some abstract judgement I make from some high ground position. It's a straightforward and down to earth belief that contributing to crime is wrong.
But only because they're illegal and therefore trade is run by criminals. Take that out of the equation and theres no real problem.
But sweepy. Illegal drugs are illegal now and right now their use supports illegal activity.
When they're legal I won't have this objection but if you choose to take drugs now you choose (in a small but undeniable way) to support having someone shot, beaten up, stolen from - whatever.
To believe otherwise seems naive.
If I see my local trail strewn with litter do I add my junk to the pile with a shrug and a "this place was always going to be a mess and anyway my bit of junk's not as bad as some of that other stuff" OR do I take my junk home and think about how I can organise a clean up and encourage others not to litter.
Some of you guys are new here from MBUK right?
Its not drugs that cause that, its an unfair and unworkable law that leaves criminal gangs able to make huge profits with no effective control on their business practices. The so called war on drugs cant be won, prohibition has never worked, and its actually counterproductive to carry on trying. There were no criminal gangs making fortunes out of mephedrone, and no real basis for a ban, but that will change now its been banned as a knee jerk reaction to please the tabloids and those who see themselves as guardians of the nations morals.
As in 'seriously don't do it kids' or 'seriously, this was well funny this time I was off my tits...'?
As in, 'these are my stories, now you make your own mind up what is right for you' type stories...
Prohibition didn't work in the states, and it doesn't work with your kids, if they want to do it, what you say won't make a blind bit of difference, but at least mine will be clued up unlike most.
And btw, so much shit is talked about drugs by people who 'have never and will never try them', at least I am in full possession of the facts, not what I see on tv or read in the Daily Mail. Pretty hard to roundly condemn something if you have absolutely no frame of reference...
sweepy.
I agree, drugs don't in themselves cause crime and I'm not especially anti-drugs. But the reality is that currently the illegal drugs industry is run by criminals who commit crimes which go beyond the trade in the drugs themselves and extend to the sorts of antisocial and criminal activities I've mentioned. The victims of these crimes are not just drug users and drug dealers. They are all of us.
Currently, when you decide to buy an illegal drug you currently also choose to support current criminal activity.
One doesn't have to be a "moral guardian" to object to the behaviours of those who choose to contribute to criminal activity from which we all suffer.
Grittyshaker, yes, basically. I was brought up in one of the poorer parts of the uk and for better or worse am acquainted with many people who do or have done these bad things. Me shielding my kids from the things that go on does not mean they will not be exposed to it. At least if they get caught up in unsavoury situations at least they can talk to dad about it rather than me coming across like yourself. Your attitude may be great wherever you live but where I am it is painfully naive...
Prohibition didn't work in the states, and it doesn't work with your kids, if they want to do it, what you say won't make a blind bit of difference, but at least mine will be clued up unlike most.And btw, so much shit is talked about drugs by people who 'have never and will never try them', at least I am in full possession of the facts, not what I see on tv or read in the Daily Mail. Pretty hard to roundly condemn something if you have absolutely no frame of reference.
He shoots He scores.
If my kids want to try drugs, i hope they will come to me, where i will advise them with what i know.This does [b]not mean[/b] i will endorse or even force the issue. If they chose, They will hopefully be under my supervision when and if they do. That includes booze and fags even though i never done the latter....
OK GS but youve got a choice, stop millions of people taking drugs (which really wont happen) or if your serious about stopping the criminal fallout then just legalise them which would remove the benefits to criminals at a stroke.
The same criminals make money and cause misery by moneylending, do you think we should ban banks, or do they provide a safe, legal alternative.
Without our draconian laws, anyone who wanted to smoke cannabis could easily, and cheaply grow their own supply. Instead we are forced to buy contaminated crap from criminals. (unless we get it from small scale artisan growers on the internet)
loddrik
How I might come across to my kids in private may be very different to how I come across here. I'm happy for you that your kids feel they can talk to you. I hope they stay/stayed kids long enough for you and them to enjoy their childhood. The pressures of adolescence/adulthood come very quickly. A certain amount of sheilding's no bad thing.
My point is:
Under the current law if you choose to take drugs you choose to support criminal activity that effects all of us.
That's not a naive belief. It's a fact borne of experience. If one chooses to take drugs in the knowledge of that fact then, IMO, one has made a selfish and antisocial choice.
If my kids want to try drugs, i hope they will come to me, where i will advise them with what i know.This does not mean i will endorse or even force the issue. If they chose, They will hopefully be under my supervision when and if they do. That includes booze and fags even though i never done the latter....
This is the approach my parents took - I was even given a bag of homegrown (stashed secretly in my rucksack) to try on my second term at uni! Result - I don't do any drugs and I don't think (but not sure!) my sisters do either.
grittyshaker
If I bought some seeds and grew one or two plants for my own use. Where am I connected to murder or organised crime?
Why are you asking me...?
Grittyshaker, surely it's your "Society" that is wrong in the setting of it's law, when so many people choose to participate in an "illegal" activity?
sweepy
I think legalisation may have its merits. There have been clinical/statistical studies which suggest that the harm of some currently illegal drugs may be less than some legal activities.
This doesn't negate the fact that currently when you choose to take drugs you currently choose to support criminals.
In my view, currently, the choice to take drugs is a selfish and antisocial one. Currently.
The jist of your argument in favour of taking currently illegal drugs seems to be based around a situation which doesn't currently exist.
If drugs were legal I might start to recreationally indulge but, currently, I'd feel bad knowing that I was contributing to signifcant levels of distinctly unpleasant crime.
U31
You may be right that the law/society is wrong but this doesn't change the fact that, currently, when you choose to buy illegal drugs you, currently, choose to support other forms of crime which, currently, impact on us all.
PS - it's not "my society", it's ours. And it's not "illegal", it's illegal.
(what are you talking about loddrik? must be all those drugs 😉 )
And dont for one minute think that am naive about the drugs trade and misery and crime it can cause in the country it is grown, do you think i'm happy about that?
No, i'm not, is the answer.
But take them i do, for whatever my reasons, in the full knowledge that to simply make them legal would reduce that harm.
U31
You keep taking the drugs and I'll keep believing that you support crime which extends to beatings, robbery and murder. It's a selfish and anti-social choice you make and one that you acknowedge in your post.
I hope that all the baddies you meet are only in your head.
I am sure we have done this quite a few times on STW over the years...
Ah but it does exist, most of my drugs come from growers whose only involvement in crime is growing something illegal, I dont buy from criminals cos they sell shit drugs. It would be easier for others to make this choice if it was legalised.
For a surprisingly open and honest look at the issues surrounding drug use read High society by Ben Elton
I KNOW i support criminal activity, as the law stands, I ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE!
I am good, with this knowledge, it just pisses me off that it has to be this way.
As someone earlier posted, i was also dragged up in a cesspit - but in Bolton, and if you googled the underworld of Bolton, im sure i'd know or went to school with 90% of the names dragged up.
And yes, most of them are totally evil bast***s with the morals of a rattle snake.
And if it could be taken out of the hands of these scum the world would be slightly better. Not totally, though, they will find other lucrative activities, i'm sure.
But as it stands there is a market, there always will be, and if society won't allow legitimate purchase, who other then criminality will corner that market?
im assuming grittyshaker that you only buy clothes not produced in sweatshops, eat sustainably sourced food
you have no electronic devices(laptop, tv, ipod, mobile) in your house that use minerals extracted from places like the congo, the sale of which has been funding the murder and fighting there for a generation
if not id get off your high horse and maybe go and get properly high, sounds like you could do with it
You got me there sweepy.
I guess that would really be the case if your growers were just passing it on to their friends (maybe just at cost price) and making sure that none of their stuff was being traded on and that they weren't unknowingly exacerbating turf wars among the proper dealers because they were undercutting them or somehow normalising an activity which is currently illegal.
I guess the only sure fire way to do it, without the unpleasant side effects, is growing solely for one's own use. In secret.
I note that you say "most of my drugs".
I agree that many of our actions, even legal ones, have unpleasant consequences for others. I try to minimise mine.
i mentioned the Congo thing on another forum where someone was asking about what new phone to buy, I got ripped to shreds.... 😆
I try my best kimbers, I try. Where I have choices I try to make good ones. By no means am I saying I have always made good choices, I continue to screw up from time to time and doubtless I'll foul up in future.
Can't see how to take a position against robbery, beating, murder etc. is to be on any sort of "high horse". It's normal to find these things unpleasant, no?
Grittyshaker. I'm sure that you buy legalproducts that also fuel human misery. Guns are probably a bad example. How about clothing? Or nuts? Nuts are or the lending of money by rich countries to help poor countries grow nut or coffee to make money is basically how third world debt was formed. The poorer countries borrowed money at a rate they would never be able to pay back even with the profits from their nut/coffee. The rich banks/countries knew this as they imorrally but legally lent the money to these countries. They did it to more than one to help flood the market so that the prices were kept down. Subsequently certain countires grow plants that can be processed to make drugs to sell at inflated prices to us for that very reason. In many way actually the cheap coffe, nuts and cotton you buy is bolstering this industry. If westeners actually paid the going rate then there would be less of a need for countries to get into growing the narcottics. Which by the way can be grown in much the same plantation that the nuts, coffee and cotton are. Its also fair to say the drugs trade is exactly as old as just trade. Yes my grammer is poor. 🙂
alex222
You are absolutely right. I do all of those things.
It's just where I know something to have bad consequences, and I have a choice to do something else, I try to avoid making a situation worse. I acknowledge that world trade and aid is a complex and sometimes immoral business.
It just seems that where people knowingly choose, solely for their self acknowledged pleasure, activities which contribute to misery easily observed on their own doorstep, I can't help thinking that that is a selfish choice.
In your post you make refernece to how 3rd world debt was formed and I'm sure you're right about the past roles of rich countries in this. Judged by today's standards (and even of the time) it's difficult to credit these actions as being moral. However, the immoral and unjust events of the past don't justify continued immoral and unjust events today. IMO where we know better we have a duty to try to do better. Otherwise the world gets worse, not better. Also to be complacent and say "it's always been like that", "there's nothing I can do" is defeatist and denies the capacity of each of us to do better for ourselves and for society in general.
We can start by not knowingly contributing to violence by buying illegal drugs. Even if they are really good illegal drugs. 🙂
I may be naive. I prefer idealistic. 😉
There can only be one thing worse than people who take drugs, people who are santimonIous about bot taking them...
I'm always quite sanctimonious about taking drugs through my bot...
A question. OK 2 questions.
Aside from the possibility of addiction, why do you take illegal drugs?
Eg. For fun
What level of drug-related crime would a relative/friend/stranger have to suffer to make you think about stopping because you feel that somehow your habit contributed?
Eg. Relative has possessions stolen. Friend is injured in street robbery. Stranger is tortured and killed.
You don't know me, do you loddrik. About my upbringing and background, education, experience of drugs or with criminality and the law because I've told you none of these things. You've told me about your relatively heavy illegal drug consumption and about the neighbourhood you grew up in.
Tell me what's so good about illegal drugs that's worth:
A relative having their possessions stolen
A friend being injured in a street robbery
A stranger being tortured and killed
Because if I knew there was something I could do to stop these things happening or even limit my contribution among that of a thousand others, you know, I'd think about it.
From your posts I'm not sure you would.
I couldn't care less about other people, I just want to get high.
Ok, I was born and brought up in Liverpool, I live in a nice area and have a postgraduate education, I have known and do know plenty of unsavoury characters. That's more about me.
Your standpoint is all very laudable but I am afraid it is both out of touch and irrelevant in terms of where I live. The fact is that should certain elements not be involved in selling drugs, CIT robberies would go through the roof, doors would be getting kicked in in the early hours and families terrorised as these people would still have to make money, crime would transfer to other ways of acquiring wealth. Do you honestly think that people would suddenly think about earning an honest living. Don't be completely deluded.
Sermonising. Laws make criminals. Legalise and strictly regulate their quality and price as we (should) do with alcohol. Then negatively campaign against use. Deal with the effected users. It's better that what we have now. IMO
Hi loddrik
Since we're sharing...
I grew up in an aspirant suburb of Bradford, comprehensive school, university, teacher training (ducks below parapet). Currently work with all sorts of characters (some young offenders) in a job where a drugs conviction can be a career wrecker (I've chosen to say nothing about my own use or otherwise).
I've not said that crime wouldn't transfer to other activities. I'm not deluded in this respect. The point that I'm making is that we are able to make a choice about whether we support crime through our own activities.
This seems to be an uncomfortable choice that frustratingly (for me) many on here seem simply unwilling to acknowledge. I'm curious as to where this come from. It doesn't seem a high horse position to me. It's just about "do I contribute to a bad situation or do I not".
I'd have thought that where most people have the choice. Most people would "do the right thing". Surprising to me that so many on here seem to be saying:
But I really like drugs and...
...me stopping won't change anything
...it's just the way it is
...I don't see the connection
...I don't care what happens to other people
A bit dispiriting to be honest.
Thanks for your candour loddrik and others
PS - By the way and for the record. I am in favour of legalisation in principle and am not anti-drugs per se. I agree that to some degree "laws make criminals" and much drugs law seems to be a case in point.