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Touche 🙂
Speaking seriously for a minute, the problem with that outlook is that where do you stop? As I'm sure you're aware, the biggest killers drug wise are the two most popular legal ones, yet your ire does not seem to be directed towards Diageo or BAT. 3 members of my family have died directly as a result of alcohol abuse, and somehow it hasn't put me off buying Guinness from the local shop.
Are you in the UK? If so, your tax is paying for people to be killed around the world. How do you reconcile that with your philosophy? Perhaps you should consider moving to a more neutral country 😉
I'd add to Buzzlightyear's "manifesto":
"provide varied activity for young people - people tend to be good at stuff they enjoy and enjoy stuff they're good at, build passion for learning, hope in their futures - in and and out of work, power to make a difference in thier own lives and communities, compassion and the possibility of joy".
Hi RichPenny, thanks
You're dead right. There are loads of contradictions.
I'm with you on fags and booze and tax paid to fund unjust wars and exploitation abroad. For the record, I was taken in by WMD and felt mislead by Blair. I have campaigned against climate change and work for a youth and an environmental charity. Reconciliation of the issues you mention is always a matter of compromise, doing what I can and recognising that I can't do everything. I also have my family and friends to think of who need my energy too.
In this thread I was trying to focus my attention on the way illegal drug use contributes to violent crime (not so much with fags and booze bought on the open market) and the fact that many recreational drug users seem content to brush this under the carpet.
Just because one can't change everything doesn't mean one shouldn't address the things one can. Doing nothing though, for me, doesn't seem to be an option.
I've said above that I do try to think through the effects my choices have more widely and I'm not saying I always get it right.
Personally though, if I knew that something I did just for fun contributed to violence and hurt, I'd try to stop doing it because otherwise I'd feel bad.
Sorry to hear about your family members succumbing to booze.
Then negatively campaign against use.
WHY? Change that to abuse and I'd agree. Perhaps we should be more realistic and attempt to understand why so many choose to do drugs. And then be honest enough to accept the fact that in the main, they are enjoyable 😉
Good point RichPenny
"All in moderation" that's the methodist heritage coming out in me!
BTW Is it possible to use heroin for example in moderation?
PS - If I say I'm a "social libertarian, economically on the left" it might help some of you know where I'm coming from. See http://www.politicalcompass.org/test
I know where you're coming from, but I find it hard to make life choices based on nebulous concepts. One thing I'd ask you to bear in mind is that the violent crime associated with illegal drugs tends to see violent criminals being the victims. Contrast that with violent crime from alcohol, which is far more common and much more likely to affect the innocent.
It is utterly possible to use opiates in moderation. Generally people do not as they use opiates to fog the utter misery of their lives.
RichPenny
You may be onto something about alcohol related crime impacting on the population in general but drugs related crime being more confined. That'd need checking.
To me the concept that one's illegal drug use contibutes to violent crime isn't nebulous. It's a fact. If one didn't buy the drugs one wouldn't have contributed to drugs related crime.
I'm not saying that the crime wouldn't go elsewhere or that there aren't other factors at play other than one person's decision to buy illegal drugs one day.
I am saying that there is one clear recognition that an illegal, recreational drug user can make (that their use contributes to violent crime) and there seems, to me, only one moral choice to make on the basis of that knowedge.
If one buys illegal drugs one must recognise that one is contributing (albeit perhaps in only small way for some) to some very serious violent crime. An illegal drug user has to live with it. A non-user of illegal drugs doesn't have to deal with that. They can worry about something else 😉
PS - Thanks for that about opiates. The media would have you believe the "slippery slope" message. One hit and you're as good as gone.
Less misery = less drug abuse?
No. man kind has sought out ways to alter his state of conciousness for myriad reasons, by various means and substances since time immemorial, this will never change
I agree with you, but equally you must accept that buying alcohol contributes to violent crime. And buying tobacco contributes to lung disease. And however indirectly, me having a job results in someone else being unemployed and perhaps turning to crime.
As with most things, society insulates us from the results of our actions, whether those actions are paying for bullets in Afghanistan or Harlesden.
That social compass is interesting. I am VERY close to Nelson Mandela, which I think on balance is probably good!
Economic Left/Right: -7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.97
Good discussion guys but I can't add my tuppence due to job etc.
It just seems that where people knowingly choose, solely for their self acknowledged pleasure, activities which contribute to misery easily observed on their own doorstep, I can't help thinking that that is a selfish choice.
How does this stand up? You are able to knowingly contribute to peoples suffering if it legal. Yet if you are knowingly contributing to peoples suffering by buying illegal product black market drugs, dvds or clothes or even download pirate films/music you are doing something far worse.
Unfortunately the world is an unfair place. There is very little I can do to stop these things from happening except totally removing myself from the modern world, growing my own food, making my own clothes providing my own fuel etc can I have a fully clean conscience about other peoples suffering as a result of my life style. Even then its still all going on anyway.
@ RichPenny
Hmm. Not sure but I think I get you!
If I buy alcohol I suppose I'm supporting the same construct that makes it available to abusers of alcohol and the same with fags. Similar with the jobs idea. If I have a job it means, at least at present, someone else doesn't.
For me though, the link between buying illegal drugs and supporting the illegal activity that supplies them is more clear cut and therefore an easier choice. As a non-user it's also an easier one to make :-). I'm sure It'd be more difficult if I did use illegal drugs.
As for society insulating us from our choices in some parts of the UK the link between drug use and crime is all too apparent with lives made very difficult by a local culture of drug use.
@ U31
I agree. Drug use per se is not the problem as I see it. It's the illegal activity/violent crime that currently surrounds it. I agree that drug use has been associated with ritual since the year dot and, for the record, a return to the celebration of some of these rituals would be no bad thing.
Well, I spent £100 on the lash on friday. This keeps bars and clubs open, and they all encourage people to get irresponsibly drunk. When that happens, people often get hurt. For me, that's a more direct link than buying some coke where 5 links up the chain a couple of rival gangs were shooting each other.
Perhaps you should say more about your work? Personally my drug related experiences have been almost entirely positive. But that's probably because I'm middle class, well educated and gainfully employed.
Alex, he does have a point about the selfishness of your actions. We are all selfish, it's fairly inherent otherwise capitalism couldn't exist.
Thanks alex222
I'm not saying that either are right.
Contributing to misery, whether legally sanctioned or not, is a bad thing and I try not to do it.
I'm also not saying that anyone has to remove themselves from modern life and lead the blameless existence of a monk. Though that's an option if you feel strongly enough!
I am saying that everyone can do a bit to lessen their contribution to the sum of the worlds's misery and not consuming illegal drugs which contributes to violent crime seems, to me, to be an obvious choice. I understand why it's a difficult choice to make for some people who get a lot of pleasure from using illegal drugs but there it is.
Just to go back to the litter analogy - if your local trail was strewn with litter one would chuck your own litter down thinking "well, it's already a mess, my junk won't make any difference" or do something else. I know which option would be best for my soul but entirely understand that changing a well developed friday night E habit is a bit easier than putting one's gum wrapper in one's pocket!
Hmm, interesting thread. Just been out to the garage to clean my bike from last nights ride and had a little smoke that I know[b] has in no way contributed to any form of criminality except me being one for smoking it 😆
Grittyshaker - have I done wrong?
Done coke in the past but no more, enjoyed it but seen it wreck peoples lives - usually people who have "addictive personalities"
Most of my friends now don't smoke as they "grew out" of it. I still do as I enjoy it with a glass of wine ocassionally (apart from it makes me slower on the climbs!)
Terrible that I have to contact criminals or commit a crime to get a smoke. Legalise it.
With respect all
The gist of the arguments against coming forward seem to be:
"It's all really complicated and intermeshed with some really big issues around trade and employment and anyway booze and fags are as bad and they're legal and its only bad drug guys miles away who get hurt anyway and we all contribute to bad stuff through our taxes and we've made these countries dependent on the drugs trade last century through coffee and tea plantations"
My issue is simple:
"Buying illegal drugs contributes to a trade in which people (some innocent, some not) get intimidated robbed, beaten and killed".
Now then. Anyone going to tell why taking illegal drugs is justified without saying "but x, y, z is worse"?
Since none of you are actually addicted it should be a fairly straightforward call to make no?
😉
Seems everyone already has told you but you seem to choose to ignore / disagree with what is written.
nacho - if you can guarantee that no criminality was involved in obtaining or facilitated/encouraged by your smoke then you haven't done anything wrong. You may have just done a little bit of wrong. But still wrong.
It is bad that you should have to deal with criminals to have a smoke but there it is. I am not against drugs especially and I think there is a case for legalisation.
Simplisticly?
Because i want to.
It's the only justification i need on this subject
My "main" set of friends smoke weed pretty much every day and I think its changed them a lot. They've become the stereotypical stoners - lazy, eating crap food and playing xbox all the time. They also look a lot worse than they did a couple of years ago (scruffier and a lot older). I'll partake sometimes but I don't get much out of it like they do - must have a higher tolerance for the weak crap we have around here or something.
nacho
You're right, I've been given justifications and I think U31 sums them up:
"Because I want to".
I know some kids who'd want to get into your garages while you're stoned, nick your bikes, piss in your shoes and flog them down the road for a tenner. I just thought the STW massive could come up with something more reasoned.
C'mon you're really just here on a jolly from MBUK, aren't you?
😉
Sorry GS but thats a bit of a red herring in my view, People are not getting beaten etc because drugs are being sold, they are getting beaten because drugs are being sold by criminals. If/when drugs sre sold by decent people there will be/are no beatings as a result of their sale.
My last post on this subject as we obviously disagree and we are now onto societies ills. Drugs don't make those "kids" want to do those things, society, their situation and being who they are does, they might do drugs they might not. In my opinion that's a very silly comment.
I recognise some of your viewpoint as I don't want to encourage criminals. Unfortunatley every single one of us does contribute to criminality directly or indirectly, knowing or unknowing almost every day and drugs are part of that.
P.S I have read MBUK 🙂
How do people justify their purchase of the latest tech every time a new model comes out / jewellery etc when some bloke in Congo is being forced at gunpoint to mine the minerals to make them?
How do people justify buying the latest clothes while Little Samir in India is working 20 hour days in subsistence conditions....
Its a circular argument mate and its un winable.
If youre alive in the developed world your existence is at the price of some third world guy coming in harms way.
Do we all top ourself to stay your conscience?
I dont buy the latest hi tech, and use whatever i have to the electronic death before i replace anything
You dont do drugs... both salve conscience
Agreed, generally people do it because they want to. Like plenty of behaviours discussed, such as alcohol use or paying tax to fund illegal wars. The alcohol comparison is especially valid.
sweepy - I've made exactly that point and am broadly in favour of legalisation. Heck I'd probably indulge myself if that were the case. Obviously the drugs would have to be organic, fairtrade etc. etc. 😉
So, what's your justification for using illegal drugs NOW given that people do get beaten up etc.
Please don't say "x, y ,z is worse/no better etc." I'm looking for an absolute justification for taking illegal drugs in the knowledge that one contributes to the beatings etc.
C'mon you can't do much worse than U31 😉
Try to convince someone from glasgow that ilegal drugs cause more harm than alcohol, in terms of violence and addiction...
And my dad is from Blackhill before any Glaswegians have a pop...
Sweepy,
weather drugs be illegal or not, a smack head WILL still mug a granny/ rob a house / steal a bike for his fiver fix...
Gritty shaker, just an aside...
Have you ever given any consideration as to where the components, or the elements that make up your bike where sourced?
When I rule the world he wont have to mate, ill give him, and anyone else who wants it, clean pure smack so cheap they wont need to. At best he'll be able to function as a productive member of society and no one gets beaten by dealers. At worst he's not mugging and stealing, any harm is minimised, and limited to him, and all down the supply chain, people are taken out of criminality.
grittyshaker - Member
sweepy - I've made exactly that point and am broadly in favour of legalisation. Heck I'd probably indulge myself if that were the case. Obviously the drugs would have to be organic, fairtrade etc. etc.So, what's your justification for using illegal drugs NOW given that people do get beaten up etc.
People dont get beaten up cos of drugs, but because of criminals,
Another aside, a very successful Bolton businessman (No names no pack drill, sorry) injects smack, and can stop and start at will, with no apparent addiction.
You couldn't tell to look at him, obviously being able to afford his habit lessens or completely kills the usual smackhead tell tales...
If you met him at work you would just think he was the usual youngish go getter like any other...
I'm looking for an absolute justification for taking illegal drugs in the knowledge that one contributes to the beatings etc.
OK then, perhaps taking drugs financially supports the people who are growing them. Without that income, people could be destitute, or turning to other types of crime. Drugs have encouraged people creatively in many ways, the results of that bringing joy to many millions of people. Personally speaking, I believe that many aspects of my character were positively influenced by my indulgences (although I cannot know this categorically).
Aye, I reckon the stereotypical junkie is another red herring. There are smack users, and there are arseholes, and there is some overlap. But I believe only a small proportion of users ever get addicted and this, and their subsequent behaviour says more about them, than about any drugs they took.
Not so sure about that sweepy. I think it would be easier to become an arsehole if you were addicted to something expensive and your life was in the shitter.
[quote="sweepy"]But I believe only a small proportion of users ever get addicted and this, and their subsequent behaviour says more about them, than about any drugs they took.
Amen, brother...
And Rich, to understand the above sentiment, you have to have to have first hand experience of these kinds of behaviour...
Believe me, Addicts were arseholes long before they found substances that they could blame for being a victim..
I'm looking for an absolute justification for taking illegal drugs in the knowledge that one contributes to the beatings etc.
Of course you can't All fair trade are you?
If drugs were not illegal organised crime would not profit from sale of them. Taxpayer would instead.
You need to separate out the different drugs and the different damage they do to society. Petty crime is mainly the province of the Opiate user. Nicking bikes to pay for a few bags of smack, that sort of thing.
Someone who parties with pills at the weekend does not go out to commit crime to buy a few "e"s. Sure criminals get the profits from the drugs trade. But not all drug use leads to crime.
Drug use is demand driven - you cannot stop the drugs trade by trying to stop producers and smugglers. You can only stop / reduce it by reducing demand. Treating drug use as a public health issue and selective legalisation of drugs is the way forward IMO.
Thanks all
Bedtime for me now
U31 - Your post re: components seems to be a variation on the "worse things happen" theme. "I'll continue to do x bad thing cos it's no worse than y bad thing". A non starter for me I'm afraid.
Sweepy - I've addressed that point and agree with you. But we're not living in your imagined future. In the year 2010 people do get hurt over the trade of drugs to which you appear to contribute. Thanks for the promise of cheap drugs come "L day" though.
RichPenny - Best answer. Especially the creativity angle. Worth your granny getting mugged though?
TJ - Think it is possible to address the moral issue of drug consumption in isolation of others eg fairtrade. Agree - not all drug use leads to crime. Agree - reduce demand by raising awareness of health and associated crime issues among users. Most effective with relatively wealthy I'd have thought. Also selective legalisation being way forward.
Thanks everyone else. It's been immense.
Goodnight and happy trails.
Shuffles off, chats to Mrs Gritty "Yeah, had a great chat on STW. They all thought I was the dog's ....." 😉
Nice talking to you mate 🙂
You too sweepy
Believe me, Addicts were arseholes long before they found substances that they could blame for being a victim..
Actually I won't believe you, because I don't like to generalise. Some people who spiral into addiction have had unbelievably difficult lives. Some have not. The ones I have known were not arseholes, particularly the one who drank himself to death after the early demise of his wife. He just couldn't cope without her, and was weak rather than an arsehole. There is a difference.
I take your point RP, I was taking mainly of smack users, and to my mind you have to work at getting addicted to that. And even if you are addicted that doesn't mean that you have to go round mugging old ladies. I dont think anyone ever died of heroin withdrawl alone, if you cant afford it dont take it!
Plenty of people have shit lives, plenty of people take smack for years with no problems. Some people are arseholes with, or without smack.
Been thinking -
Dabbling in chemicals when your a teen = cool
enjoying chemicals in your early/mid 20's = cool
Doing chemicals in your late 20's = what void are you avoiding?
Doing chemicals in your 30's+ = Your an addict.