According to this abstract
The German Alpine club recommend using assisted braking devices.
why isn’t she wearing a lid
She is, and that's the reason she's only stunned and not killed.
Using a Gri-Gri incorrectly can potentially only occur at the point a fall occurs, by which point it’s a bit late.
Exactly as it can with an ATC. You can fumble a rope any time.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
Indeed, but it would still have a use when top roping. Which a lot of people do…
I note that neither of the accidents you found involved top roping.
And in the case of Grigri, I don’t think there is a penalty. They are quite easy to use.
They are quite easy to use wrong. One of your accidents was using one and it's trivial to find more examples. They don't solve the problem - given your concerns about your inexperience, there is a better solution to that than a different device which is to get some training. 3:40 in the video I linked up there.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
However one key advantage of the Grigri is that once it’s locked, it stays locked.
5:10 in the video I linked earlier. Please tell me you've actually watched that video?
[i]Cougar wrote:[/i]
I like the Gri-Gri, and as I said before I prefer it to a regular belay device for all the reasons you’ve mentioned. But like the bowline it is not, no way no how, a beginner’s tool. If you haven’t mastered traditional belaying then you shouldn’t even be thinking about using one (not least because it forgives lazy belaying habits that could prove fatal if you then moved back to a regular device).
Cougar talks a lot of sense here. This is the fundamental issue - it appears you're wanting to use one because you're not confident in your technique.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Here’s another scenario – you’re out on the crag leading, and you grab a hold and a large ish chunk of rock falls off in your hand. Your gear is ok, but the rock hits your belayer on the head and stuns her momentarily. Or she raises her hands instinctively to protect herself.</span>
You’ve got more chance with an SRC or some other self braking device, no?
You have identified the one major advantage here. Yes, in this situation an auto-locking device is helpful. But then that doesn't appear to be what you are talking about doing.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
According to this abstract
ALPENVEREIN.DE
/a>
The German Alpine club recommend using assisted braking devices.
Ahem, did you read the whole of it? A couple of quotes:
Assisted braking obviously also involves disadvantages: handling the assisted braking belay devices is more complicated than with manual belay devices. In order to give out rope from the belay device quickly, safely, and easily without the device blocking the rope, more or less complex movements are required (e.g. th so-called “Gaswerk-Method” for the Grigri). This is at the expense of safety
Doesn't sound like something for a beginner does it?
I note you're particularly concerned about lowering:
In climbing gyms operated by the German Alpine Club, in the period from 2012 to 2014, 20% of all falls to the ground which required an emergency ambulance occurred during lowering! Representing 50% of the accident cases assisted braking belay devices are involved disproportionately (approx. 40%) in their increase
Cougar talks a lot of sense here.
Had to happen sooner or later. (-: Thank you.
Exactly as it can with an ATC. You can fumble a rope any time.
I'm starting to think that you're dropping into your standard 'devils advocate' fence-up-your-arse forum default here now.
You can fumble a rope at any time, of course. But a failure in user operation of an ATC-type device would be massively unlucky if you've demonstrated correct control throughout a belay session and just happened to have a wobble at the precise moment a climber took a fall. A failure with a Gri-Gri doesn't have that quality control and therefore prediction, you don't have the same degree of preception. The only time you find out whether you're really in control is when you suddenly have to be. With a conventional belay device you always have to be in complete control and the second you aren't it's immediately obvious to even a passing observer, with a Gri you can belay whilst eating a sandwich. Which is fine until the point where it isn't.
don't think that Grigri's were ever intended to assist those lacking in belaying skills or attention when toproping at the climbing wall - my historical perspective would be they were developed to fill a need for belayers to be able to hold resting leaders and lower leaders practising moves when redpointing on sports climbs and the device is great for this
have seen ground falls at the wall with grigri's and have put this down to it being very easy to get lazy with how you feed the rope when the leader is clipping - not used the mk2 or the + so no real input other than they are modifications to make the product (slightly) safer for less experienced belayers to use
subject came up recently when visiting local to me (down under) wall with old climbing partner from UK and think he told me that like the wall here Grigri's had been banned at his local wall (wall here uses ATC's permanently on the rope attached back to ground anchors for top roping)
incidentally sung the praises of the Eldred OHM
[url] http://www.walltoys.com.au/Climbing/belay/devices/edelrid-ohm [/url]
as he is a lot heavier than his wife and found works very well - if looking for assistance in belaying then probably makes more sense than a grigri
If the clip is precarious and you risk decking it/hurting yourself if you topple off the obvious answer is to climb on a double. The belayer leaves lots of slack on the second rope and only takes in when you've made the clip. In the example below my next clip is about a metre above my head and the clip is made while trying not to barn door off.
Having a second who is a good sprinter is better than having someone capable of taking in quickly IME. Make sure they've got somewhere to run.
Gri gri is only certified down to 8.9mm rope diameter. From personal experience when you’re using it with ropes around the smaller dia, especially newer rope that hasn’t furred up it takes mire load to ‘lock’ it.
The cam in the Gri gri (or Gri gri 2) will allow rope through even when the handle is not pulled as the cam isn’t sprung it relies on a load on the rope to lock it. Again, personal experience as a 85kg adult with a full load of rope access kit on my harness adding a fair bit more using a Gri Gri for work positioning (holding me in towards the wall to counteract the forces when drilling) is that without loading the device it tends to creep. That’s why the Grillon adjustable lanyard has a sprung cam to default it to the locked position despite looking to all intents & purposes identical.
The newest version of the Gri Gri has one important improvement. It has a selectable spring cam, which pushes the cam towards the locked position like the Grillon does. Much safer especially with children on the end of the rope.
All that said, my personal opinion is that locking belay devices are a great aid but no substitute for good technique and they often mask bad technique and promote bad belay habits. I say that as a climber of 25 or more years who also uses self locking descenders (ID & RIG mainly) pretty much every day for work. I belay with an ATC & taught my wife to do the same.
Lots of very interesting human factors/error management chat on this thread! I guess it boils down to whether locking systems introduce complexities or difficulties in use that mean that, in real-world use, the flawed human in the system takes a shortcut which makes them MORE dangerous than a conventional device? Seen all the time in aviation where the “safer” procedure or equipment wasn’t followed/used because it was a pain in the arse!
I used to use a GriGri for sport climbing and (string me up) I would hold the cam down when the leader needed rapid slack, because it was a PITA otherwise. I had self-briefed action on a fall, but I think an ATC would probably have been safer! Though not as good for holding him on his many rests.....
@airtragic - that's the point really isn't it? Each device has strengths and weaknesses and not every device is suitable for every situation. If you mainly sports climb and have to lock-off the climber while they work the route then GriGri type devices are preferable. If you mainly climb trad on double ropes then GriGris don't work (unless there's a twin/double rope version now) so the ATC type belay plate are preferable. In winter on snow/ice climbs then a waist belay tends to be better as it imparts a lower braking force so if the leader does fall then there's less shock on the protection (assumes that the leader doesn't fall so far they hit a ledge or the deck), frozen ropes don't help mechanical devices either.
A lot of the scenarios being presented as examples of a fundamental flaw in the system are very much edge cases: the case of letting go when lowering someone being a case in point - you've got hold of the dead rope already, it's not like you are being caught off-guard by the climber falling. If someone comes over to have a chat you just tell them to wait until the climber is safely on the ground and your attention should be on them.
As noted earlier, if there was a lightweight, simple to use device that was absolutely fail-safe then the likes of DMM, Wild Country, Petzl, etc would be all over it.
Pick one, practice it, make it automatic ...but not so automatic you get complacent. It's always the human that goes wrong in the system and we all have the capacity to be dicks. Started 17, now 50-something. Few years ago I belayed my mate to the top of the wall, took his weight at the clips ...and realised I'd threaded the Grigri the wrong way. I was the dick that day. Take whatever learning you want from that.
my personal opinion is that locking belay devices are a great aid but no substitute for good technique and they often mask bad technique and promote bad belay habits.
Agreed. That's exactly what I was trying to say earlier, only I think you've just worded it much more clearly.
Started 17, now 50-something. Few years ago I belayed my mate to the top of the wall, took his weight at the clips …and realised I’d threaded the Grigri the wrong way. I was the dick that day. Take whatever learning you want from that.
Yup, experience is no barrier to having a brain fart, as Molgrips was saying. It can actually make you worse if complacency creeps in! I believe one of the worst scenarios is being experienced but out of practice and currency, ie me!
So it's a flaw of Grigris that poor use can be dangerous, but it's an advantage of an ATC that poor use can be dangerous?
Everything needs the right technique. But an assisted braking device in principle provides more safety in more situations. I do not like the fact that a climber's safety is only in that one single hand around the dead rope. Another layer of security (not an alternative layer - an EXTRA layer) can't be a bad thing imo. It's a bit silly to blame an assisted belay device for a person's mistakes, when any device can be used with mistakes. Just different ones.
[reads thread title - jumps straight to end]
imo Grigris allow the possibility of bad/lazy technique more than traditional belay devices. They suit working sport routes well, but it's these sort of situations where the belayer might lose attention. I've seen some unnecessarily long falls caused by bad/lazy Grigri use. ( no-one decked, lots of swearing and lots of apologising from the belayer type falls).
I would hold the cam down when the leader needed rapid slack, because it was a PITA otherwise
This sort of thing.
@molgrips - go and try this; put on your harness and attach an ATC/Betterbrake/belay plate to the belay loop. Uncoil your rope on the ground next to you. Now set up the belay device a few metres from the end of the rope. At this point you should be in the situation where if someone tied in to the end of the rope they could start to lead. Loosely knot something on the live rope just in front of your belay device as a marker - a piece of cloth will do. Now get someone strong to grab the live end of the rope. What they are going to do is suddenly pull as hard as they can to simulate a lead fall so you'll need to brace yourself for this. Do not hold the dead rope, concentrate on not getting pulled over.
Let your helper sharply pull the rope, you'll notice that the device locks very quickly without your hand on the dead rope, the knotted marker will show how much rope has fed through before it locked.
If you really must then something like a Petzl Shunt on the dead rope and clipped to the leg loop is as close as you are going to get but IMO it's more trouble than it's worth.
So it’s a flaw of Grigris that poor use can be dangerous, but it’s an advantage of an ATC that poor use can be dangerous?
Are you not reading / understanding what's being said, or are you just being disingenuous in order to have an argument?
