I know you are looking at protecting your kids but to a large degree you are over thinking this.
There's a massive flaw in the safety system. But everyone accepts it cos that's just the way it is. Like car seatbelts in the 70s.
Basically it doesn’t matter what device you use, you still need to be alert.
Of course, and I'm not arguing otherwise. But accidents happen, and I want to be covered as much as I can be.
Molgrips - you won't drop the kids. I haven't and I'm a complete idiot. The two older boys (9 and 12) tie themselves in and can belay each other safely (with me backing up) an they are bigger idiots than me (most of the time). I've impressed the importance of safety on them, and so do their lessons - its about the only time I see them focussed fully.
Far more experienced people than me have demonstrated the amount of friction generated through the belay device and I dare say your girls weigh next to nothing. Two krabs I've seen but never felt the need.
It's all about learning right, repetition, focus and muscle memory all of which you clearly have covered,and the fact you're concerned is even better. Just grab one of the staff or another climber to observe if you're feeling rusty maybe, before they start . I did it for my first 3 solo visits, and going to different centers (forcing an induction inspection) can keep you on your toes.
However, I find the best way to keep myself focussed is simply to imagine explaining an incident of
any sort to Mrs B 😀
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
There’s a massive flaw in the safety system. But everyone accepts it cos that’s just the way it is. Like car seatbelts in the 70s.
There really isn't - not if you get properly trained and learn how to do things properly. I'm 100% confident I'm not going to drop my kids when I take them climbing - if it's worrying you then I suggest you spend your money on a training course rather than a grigri, the failsafe mechanism is knowing what to do and doing it every time.
Your argument here is along the lines of "what if I lose concentration, let go of the wheel and drive into that tree". Seatbelts won't help you much more than a grigri will.
Accidents happen because people do things fundamentally wrong - and you can still do things fundamentally wrong when using a grigri.
The massive flaw is?
If there were such a flaw then there'd be countless accidents every weekend.
[i]antigee wrote:[/i]
“Personally I’m still using 25yo krabs…………”
I’d be a little cautious there for 2 reasons
I'm thinking bent alu krabs are maybe rather older than that - mine are all forged with gate open ratings stamped on them. They're a bit heavier than modern krabs, but the ratings are the same. I've already covered the wear issue - they don't wear when sitting in the gear box for 15 years and I suspect they've had more use in the last year than the previous 24 - I'll replace metal bits based upon use and inspection (I got a new belay krab, and will be replacing my current one this year based on wear - was thinking of getting a steel one for use at the wall, but will probably get one of the new Edelrid ones with a steel insert and anti-spin clip).
Was surprised to see the instructor at the awesome place I take my kids to lets them belay in short order, like the second lesson. Actually stood up in surprise when I first saw my 6yo daughter belaying another kid way high up the wall, instructor standing a few feet away as he was covering three of them [ie not handling the rope himself]. I am not a climber, so fair to say I can't evaluate the real risks - can he step in in the event of a fall? Just seems like it would create total panic in such a young belayer [plus she was belaying the one kid in the class who was bold and capable, so a fall not totally out of the question].
So it's a lot of trust in the instructor's judgement, which is a bit worrying as a parent when you know your kid's temperaments - my other son would I am sure demonstrate perfect belay technique, but the instructor doesn't know he has the attention span of a goldfish.
Of course if every kid needs the rope fed out by the instructor then there's no lesson.
can he step in in the event of a fall?
He might have been holding the dead rope, or had another kid holding it or have put a knot in the dead rope as a fail safe.
Your argument here is along the lines of “what if I lose concentration, let go of the wheel and drive into that tree”. Seatbelts won’t help you much more than a grigri will.
But cars have seatbelts (which do very obviously help), airbags, crumple zones, lane drift warnings, automatic hazard detection and braking, blind spot warnings etc etc. All put in to mitigate the effects of a mistake elsewhere.
Your argument is nonsense. Everywhere we look, measures are taken to make things safer *when someone makes a mistake*. People wear hard hats on building sites in case someone drops a brick or a hammer. Would you tell builders to simply hold on to their hammers better?
...anyway, never mind all this technical stuff. The main thing is that the best belayer is the one having most fun.
The main thing is that the best belayer is the one having most fun.
Dunno about that. I would say its the one paying attention and then having fun after that.
At least if I am the one being belayed. Otherwise I would agree with you.
[i]molgrips wrote:[/i]
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">But cars have seatbelts (which do very obviously help), airbags, crumple zones, lane drift warnings, automatic hazard detection and braking, blind spot warnings etc etc. All put in to mitigate the effects of a mistake elsewhere.</span>
and yet people still die when they drive into trees whilst experienced belayers don't ever drop their partner by not belaying correctly (all sorts of other ways for things to go wrong climbing, but the one you're worried about only happens with people who are inexperienced). The thing is letting go of the dead rope is somewhat different to other "mistakes" you mention - the dead rope doesn't just slip out of your hand, not when you're concentrating which is what you do when you're belaying.
The issue here is that a grigri doesn't provide the complete protection you seem to think it does, but it does provide a false sense of security - I'm not concerned that I'll ever let go of the rope, the difference is skill and experience and you're better off getting some training if you're not sure rather than relying on tech.
Meanwhile there are real downsides to anything other than the standard way of doing things.
Your argument is nonsense.
I fear it's your extended analogy that is nonsense. We do all those things in cars and on building sites (PPE, airbags etc) AND we encourage people to behave more safely because avoiding an accident is better than mitigating the effects. Climbing is exactly the same, we have kit to mitigate the outcome of an accident (helmets, ropes belay devices) AND we encourage people to behave more safely. None of your examples from other spheres of life are failsafes and belaying is not fail-safe either.
The issue here is that a grigri doesn’t provide the complete protection you seem to think it does
Well if you scroll back you'll see I said this more than once, so you're wrong - I don't think it provides complete protection.
but it does provide a false sense of security
Well no, because I know it doesn't provide complete protection, as stated 🙂
I’m not concerned that I’ll ever let go of the rope, the difference is skill and experience
So - every other skilled person takes precautions in case they make a mistake - but not climbers. Cos climbers never make mistakes, do they? So why is half the thread talking about belayers making mistakes and showing poor technique?
Safety comes from knowledge of the risks and correct use of the equipment.
Also on building sites, safety come from not dropping hammers. And yet... people still drop hammers, so people wear hard hats.
I cannot understand this situation at all.The situation is totally bonkers.
Would you mind answering my question about what you consider to be a massive flaw?
Mistakes never happen? First few hits on Google:
https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/4ptez3/accident_at_the_gym_last_night_raises_some_safety/
https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/4fie8h/belay_partner_nearly_caused_me_to_deck_advice/
So, mistakes DO happen after all. It's absurd to simply say 'do it properly' because anyone can make a mistake. No-one is perfect, not even you aracer. At some point you will make one, if you are lucky it will not be at the same time when your partner falls.
And yes, one of these stories involves a Grigri. I'm not saying they are failsafe (again). I'm saying that no-one's bothered about developing a technique or equippment that is failsafe.
Would you mind answering my question about what you consider to be a massive flaw?
It's the same as I have been going on about this whole time. The flaw is that one mistake by a belayer can cost a climber his or her life. Fumble the rope - bang. Pull the lever at the wrong time - bang. Take your hand off it at the wrong moment - bang. There's no second line.
Google turns up loads of results for belayers dropping climbers.
So – every other skilled person takes precautions in case they make a mistake – but not climbers.
You're not getting it are you? The rope and belay device IS the precaution. To continue with your rather unhelpful analogy, have you installed a rally style harness in your car instead of a seatbelt to make it safer? It would make it safer but I'm willing to bet you haven't done this. Why? Because you think that the existing precautions are adequate to mitigate the risk and the rally style set up would be very costly and have a negative impact on useability. There might be ways to make belaying safer but they could impact on useability and most climbers think existing methods are adequate.
It's also wrong to say that climbers aren't worried about this. Lots of companies have looked into this and a simple self locking device that also releases under load in a controlled fashion and pays out easily when needed would be a big seller. But some of those requirements are almost contradictory so it has proven difficult to do.
^ that huge article has a fundamental belaying mistake alluded to in it.
The fact that it is expected to only have one hand on belay. Where possible, I have two, and locked off firmly.
also:
Do we know diameter and make of rope in the ATC? Small ropes and certain brands (or new ropes) are much slippier, especially in a low drag belay device.
An ATC Guide often has barely enough friction IME. Only when firmly held in lock off position does it hold.
This was a lead climb - how much slack was out and between plate and hand?
The little lemons are lining up here - the fall is the final third lemon in a line that meant that a ground fall occurred. A slip, a burning hand, and belayer cannot hold the fall.
Edit: you also miss the *billions* of safe climbs that are not listed on the Internet...
The rope and belay device IS the precaution.
When climbing, yes, but not when being lowered off. Of course I get this.
But my point is that as safety equipment it's not good enough.
Lots of companies have looked into this and a simple self locking device that also releases under load in a controlled fashion and pays out easily when needed would be a big seller. But some of those requirements are almost contradictory so it has proven difficult to do
Ok. So you admit that it's an issue, but no-one's been able to solve it so far. Maybe I'll have a go at a solution then!
But given that most climbers think traditional equippment is perfectly ok, and in fact get annoyed when you point out it's not - I am not convinced it would in fact be a big seller.
There is a relatively straightforward solution to Molgrip's predicament. Only go to walls that have autobelays, although even they are not totally failsafe and still require the user to clip in correctly.
I've also seen a ground fall in the Peak due to a leader not getting enough slack to clip a piece of protection. The belayer was fumbling with a GriGri type device, and the slack just wouldn't pay out. The fall was now far enough, with enough slack, that the leader partially pulled the only piece of gear and hit the rock on the floor with feet...
But given that most climbers think traditional equippment is perfectly ok, and in fact get annoyed when you point out it’s not – I am not convinced it would in fact be a big seller.
That's clearly bollocks because if it was true we'd all still be using waist belays.
Auto belay...although even they are not totally failsafe
Yes, don't look up the HSE enquiries about those things....
that huge article has a fundamental belaying mistake alluded to in it.
Yep - that's my point. Mistakes are made, but in that situation the equipment does nothing.
Let's think about this for a minute. How about a device with two rollers and a friction clutch that you clamp on the live rope and fix to your harness or the tie in loop. It's got a ratchet, so the rope can go in through it as fast as you want - but it'll only pay the rope out at a certain speed. Like an auto-belay, basically.
Could be quite useful in a sport situation, no?
So you admit that it’s an issue,
And I assume you'll now be off to install rally seatbelts in your car and purchase crash helmets for the family just to be consistent about the whole issue of safety equipment that isn't up to scratch?
but it’ll only pay the rope out at a certain speed. Like an auto-belay, basically.
Just use an autobelay then, why bother having a person on it? What you describe would be useless for leading unless you could override the clutch to pay out and then you're back to user error square one...
Thinking about this from another angle molgrips, if you want to remove all risk of a belayer dropping their climber you need to eliminate human error which means eliminating humans. Autobelays (almost) do this so that's you sorted for a top roping scenario.
In other situations, the safety of the climber absolutely relies on the human in the system and their judgement. Do I pay out rope fast or slow? Do I go for a quick catch (to avoid them hitting a ledge say) or something more dynamic (to reduce impact on runners)? A device that took those nuances out of the equation would be a poor choice for anything other than top roping.
The reason most walls/instructors/outdoor centres teach with traditional belay devices is that they assume people will progress to other disciplines than top roping and so want to build experience with those devices. If that's not your intention then crack on with the autobelays.
Just use an autobelay then, why bother having a person on it?
Cos there's usually only a couple at a climbing wall. If there were an autobelay on ever route, then of course you'd not use a human. You could both be climbing.
A device that took those nuances out of the equation would be a poor choice for anything other than top roping.
Indeed, but it would still have a use when top roping. Which a lot of people do...
Sure it makes sense to practice the more dangerous techniques, but there's not much point in deliberately using them when you have a better alternative. If you have one, that is.
And I assume you’ll now be off to install rally seatbelts in your car and purchase crash helmets for the family just to be consistent about the whole issue of safety equipment that isn’t up to scratch?
I assume that what you're crudely and annoyingly trying to say is that certain safety equipment might come with unacceptable downsides. Of course that's true. But it doesn't invalidate my point. I believe a device that will lock itself in some situations is better than one that never locks itself. And in the case of Grigri, I don't think there is a penalty. They are quite easy to use. The SRC on the other hand is more of a pain to pay out.
And in the case of Grigri, I don’t think there is a penalty. They are quite easy to use.
I'd respectfully suggest that if you believe that you don't really understand how grigri's work. Myself and others up this thread have pointed out the issues with them in quite a lot of detail.
Hang on. Not sure you understand what I meant.
I mean there is no penalty in terms of ease of use. They are as easy to use as an ATC.
They don't auto-lock in every situation, as I've said over and over again. But they do auto lock in some situations, more than an ATC does.
Is any of that wrong?
A mistake by a climber is a risk not a flaw. As Matt says, for the majority of accidents you need several mistakes to line up for the accident to occur.
Recognising that there is a risk and implementing techniques to lessen it is fine. There's also a risk that the technique will fail but you need both technique and backup to fail for an accident to occur.
In thirty years of climbing from the Peak grit edges to mountain crags to the Alps to the Himalaya I am honestly struggling to recall any accident either where I was present or among my peers where the belayer dropped the climber. That's not to say it can't/doesn't happen but it really is a minimal risk.
I never liked being belayed by someone using a GriGri - it allowed the belayer's mind to wander rather than paying attention to me climbing.
As I noted in an earlier post all belay devices will auto-lock in some circumstances.
Is any of that wrong?
Yes.
I mean there is no penalty in terms of ease of use. They are as easy to use as an ATC.
They are more complex to set up and easier to set up wrong. Putting the rope through a belay plate the wrong way round will still give a functional belay, doing this with a grigri will not. Lowering a climber on a grigri requires much more judgement and skill as you need to do different things with each hand and control the speed of descent with one hand on the cam which is difficult to get right and the other hand on the dead rope. It is easy to open the cam right up and lose control of the dead rope as there is so little friction in the system in this situation and you only have one hand on the dead rope as opposed to two (usually) with an ATC.
They don’t auto-lock in every situation, as I’ve said over and over again.
Which really puts you back in the situation you were so worried about in the first place, that of a lack of failsafe.
But they do auto lock in some situations, more than an ATC does.
I mentioned this up thread. A fully open grigri with no hand on the dead rope (a worst case panic scenario) has far less friction in it than an ATC with no hand on the dead rope. You'll hit the ground much harder with the grigri than the ATC in that situation.
Which really puts you back in the situation you were so worried about in the first place, that of a lack of failsafe.
Indeed. Which is why I am still worried about it despite owning a Grigri. You'll notice that I didn't say 'a Grigri solves the problem'.
I'm not overly worried about installing the rope incorrectly. I can do that carefully and methodically under no pressure, I can verify that it's been done correctly, and then it's done for the rest of the climb. I can't accidentally un-install the rope correctly.
A fully open grigri with no hand on the dead rope (a worst case panic scenario) has far less friction in it than an ATC with no hand on the dead rope.
I once saw someone come within a foot of the deck right in front of me. It was a school group, and the climber was a slip of a girl, 40kgs worth at most. She did free fall until the rope speed created enough friction to lock the device. They just laughed it off and the instructor never knew. I should've said something to him/her.
You might be right in the case of kids - the ropes are so rough in the climbing wall and my kids are so light that I have to lift up the dead rope to get them to come down at any rate. However, if it were me climbing, I think that situation might be reversed. It would be interesting to test this.
However one key advantage of the Grigri is that once it's locked, it stays locked. If you let go of the handle whilst descending normally, the climber stops.
it allowed the belayer’s mind to wander rather than paying attention to me climbing.
No - the climber is the only thing that allows his mind to wander. You should treat a Grigri as any other belay device. I've never heard anyone being told otherwise. My mind has wandered when belaying people (when I was much much younger) but I wasn't using a Grigri.
Recognising that there is a risk and implementing techniques to lessen it is fine.
But looking for gear that minimises it isn't fine?
The flaw is still that the equipment isn't fail-safe. It's fail-dangerous.
Just the same flaw then as all bike and car brakes, they are fail-dangerous. So are you going to stop using any such vehicle? Air brakes as fitted to lorries are fail-safe however.
A device that took those nuances out of the equation would be a poor choice for anything other than top roping.
Quite.
On more than one occasion I've leapt backwards and squatted down to quickly take out slack when someone's slipped whilst attempting to clip during a lead. On one occasion that action almost certainly stopped them from decking (it was like their second clip). If you can design a belay device that can do this you're going to be very rich.
I mean there is no penalty in terms of ease of use. They are as easy to use as an ATC.
I covered this a couple of pages back. They're as easy to use - arguably easier - than an ATC but also far easier to use catastrophically badly.
However one key advantage of the Grigri is that once it’s locked, it stays locked. If you let go of the handle whilst descending normally, the climber stops.
One key disadvantage is if an inexperienced belayer panics, they may swing harder on the handle. Ever locked up the wheels when braking in a car in the days before ABS? What does every instinct in your body tell you to do with the brake pedal when you aren't slowing down?
I like the Gri-Gri, and as I said before I prefer it to a regular belay device for all the reasons you've mentioned. But like the bowline it is not, no way no how, a beginner's tool. If you haven't mastered traditional belaying then you shouldn't even be thinking about using one (not least because it forgives lazy belaying habits that could prove fatal if you then moved back to a regular device).
I'd always favour a device where you have to work harder to pay out/take in slack on the basis that the trade-off is that you have to work a lot harder to create a situation where the rope will run through easily and the climber decks out. This is even more the case now that ropes are thinner and slicker.
I never noticed a problem with paying out rope using an unsprung sticht plate, although it undeniably takes more effort and anticipation on the part of the belayer. But as has been said above, I prefer a belayer to have to focus on the leader more intensely, rather than have a device which allows slack to flow through with little attention and effort.
And the obvious payoff for using an 'old-fashioned' device is that the default position is locked off, with the hand on the dead rope as a further back-up.
One key disadvantage is if an inexperienced belayer panics, they may swing harder on the handle.
Doesn't seem llikely to me, but whatever - I'm not selling it as a beginner's device.
I'd also say an ATC is easy to use catastrophically badly.
I've also seen people doing all sorts of bad things, not paying attention etc - with all sorts of belay devices. The first half of the thread is you lot complaining about exactly that.
Our assessment of risks only comes from our experience. Molgrips you are refusing some of the possibilities as unlikely, but only as you haven't seen the risk become an incident.
For five years I had 4x GriGri, 4x 'normal' belay plates and 4x Italian/munter hitches in action, 6 days a week, by two dozen various instructors and a few thousand learners across a wall, high ropes, crate climb, abseils, natural climbs leading and top roping. If and when an incident (including near misses and concerns) happened they were explored in detail, recorded and shared. We were keen to understand whys, often way beyond the systems used were influences. I would suggest that this experience has given me more of an understanding of climbing risks than most.
I think your desire for a safer way of doing things is reflected by the various auto-blocking devices such as GriGri. Climbers do change - they are not as archaic as you seem to suggest. However introducing new techniques and products comes with challenges. They are to be used for more than top roping. They are to work in wet and mud. They have to work with various rope diameters and finishes. They have to be able to withstand muppetry in use and storage. This means they are all a compromise, all have strengths and shortcomings.
For your situation (top roping, indoors, usually 11-12mm ropes) a GriGri can offer some extra holding assurance. Please don't mistake this for safer - because my experience says they do on occasion not work, cause issues paying out or lowering, cause complexity (have you got it on the correct edge for example, or did that old stiff rope kink and go over on it?) and all this takes your eyes and sometimes mind off the climber. That said, while everything is running smoothly, the GriGri can help.
My concern is the day your lemons line up, and you are glancing down at the belay when something happens.... Unlikely, but possible.
Ok so you can miss something and cock up when using a Grigri. But you can also do same with an ATC, right?
Here's another scenario - you're out on the crag leading, and you grab a hold and a large ish chunk of rock falls off in your hand. Your gear is ok, but the rock hits your belayer on the head and stuns her momentarily. Or she raises her hands instinctively to protect herself.
You've got more chance with an SRC or some other self braking device, no?
Climbers do change – they are not as archaic as you seem to suggest.
You could be right - googling the subject returns lots of interesting and informed discussion (even on forums) debating the merits of the different devices and surprisingly little 'stop your blethering you'll be fine just don't make a mistake' as we've seen on this thread.
I'd be interested in your conclusions and statistics, matt, as I'm sure the rest of the climbing community would be.
Speaking of which - I like the look of the Grigri+
I’d also say an ATC is easy to use catastrophically badly.
Yeah, but. Using an ATC badly, you'd spot that quickly in their technique and be able to intercept / correct their behaviour before it became an issue. Using a Gri-Gri incorrectly can potentially only occur at the point a fall occurs, by which point it's a bit late.
Your gear is ok, but the rock hits your belayer on the head and stuns her momentarily.
She's belaying outdoors where this is a real risk - why isn't she wearing a lid? That's not a belay device issue.
