[Closed] Clever logo... (well I thought so anyway)

I think branding and marketting is quite limited in what it can achieve [ with myself] and beyond brand recognition it is largely [ though not completely] BS. The product generally matters more unless you are purveyors of tat and hype

Just like betamax was a superior product to VHS, and the fact that VHS had better marketing mattered not one jot. And CocaCola, a quality product or some of the best marketing in the world? McDonald's - yummy nutritious food or a load of crap marketed by people who know what they're doing?

TJ - an underrated intellectual or complete buffoon who markets himself as such?

TJ - in the same sense that blue and red on heating controls makes sense to you, do blue and red to imply hot or cold on products work?

What M-F says up there about cool boxes & chillies.....?

A cool box remains a cool box if its blue or red. chillies remain chillies if its container is blue or red. The colour adds no more information here - we know chillies are hot

Guys - you are as I said right from the beginning confusing object and referent.

[b]object[/b] ([i]noun[/i]): a material thing that can be seen and touched

[b]referent[/b] ([i]noun[/i]): the thing in the world that a word or phrase denotes or stands for.

Hmmmm...

A cool box remains a cool box if its blue or red. chillies remain chillies if its container is blue or red. The colour adds no more information here - we know chillies are hot

TJ, just out of curiosity, what colour have you painted the walls in your house?

Wow, can't believe you are still flogging a dead horse.

I got to page 10 and gave up.

BTW, what was the eggs thing all about??

Blue is associated with spirituality, thought, and melancholy. It’s also connected to calmness, cleanliness, and wisdom. When you feel blue or “have the blues”, you’re usually a little sad for the moment – but the blues are fleeting. This color is thought to be an appetite suppressant, because blue isn’t a natural color for fruit, vegetables, or meat (even blueberries are more purple than blue).

Blue colors have the opposite effect of red colors. That is, blue causes a decrease in breathing, heart rate, and blood pressure. It’s a subduing, cool color that can appear peaceful, but may also seem sad.

Read more at Suite101: Color Psychology - How Colors Affect Mood: How Different Reds, Greens, and Blue Hues Affect Mood and Emotions | Suite101.com http://www.suite101.com/content/the-psychology-of-color-a52964#ixzz1SkdNdsyB

TandemJeremy - Member
stumpy - that is a blue bit on a tap or a blue bit on a car heater. yes that has meaning. But the thing that has meaning is the "blue bit on heater control" Blue as a colour seen in isolation has no meaning

Without it being on the heater control it has no meaning. that little bit of blue plastic on a wall on its own with no control has no meaning

TandemJeremy - Member
they have no meaning at all to me. a colour is a colour

I don't know what's happening but again I'm hungering for something that consists of a protective shell, albumen , and vitellus, contained within various thin membranes.

Cold water remains cold water if the little arrow is red too. Yes?

ach - that definitely enough.

I should have said "confused object and its name" - "referent" has too many meanings and that is well less than clear. apologies for that

The point I was trying to make is that what something is is a different thing from what something is called. teh word"blue" is not eh same as the colour "blue"

mastiles_fanylion - Member

Cold water remains cold water if the little arrow is red too. Yes?

TJ? Keep up will you...

Depends? does your boiler work? 😉

what is this offend the vegan thread chocloate bars, nestle and eggs throughout

I have discounted the mention of Ecover as it does not help me make my point - it is the STW way

I should have said "confused object and its name" - "referent" has too many meanings

[url= http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/referent ]Just the one actually.[/url]

colour has no meaning without context. What do yuo see with a blue bag of crisps? You don't see cold.

is anyone left on this thread familiar with the concept of a 'boredom threshold'? Are you all suffering from early onset Alzheimer's or something?

You'd be better off standing outside a cave entrance, bellowing obscene insults into it, for all the progress you're making here.

Cold water remains cold water if the little arrow is red too. Yes?

TJ? Keep up will you...

If you add a red arrow to cold water the water reamins cold. *puzzled*

TJ...

A cool box remains a cool box if its blue or red. chillies remain chillies if its container is blue or red. The colour adds no more information here - we know chillies are hot

binners
You'd be better off standing outside a cave entrance, bellowing obscene insults into it, for all the progress you're making here.

speak for yourself - I've won 23 games of bullshit bingo!

i am totally bored now -I don't think 2000 is within reach

And I ask - doesn't cold water remain cold water if the arrow is red. Yes?

colour has no meaning without context. What do yuo see with a blue bag of crisps? You don't see cold.

It is why Ecover is blue and green - blue for water and cleanliness, green for, well, green. Again, there is context.

I can't imagine what it must be like not to be able to appreciate the colours of a dramatic surise or sunset.

i am totally bored now -I don't think 2000 is within reach

MF - "red tap" means hot water. red can mean many things dependent on the context. red button means stop red tap does not mean stop. red as a colour has no intrinsic meaning. It needs a context.

Blue crisp bag means what?
Edit =wayhay - MF you agree. a colour has no intrinisc meaning - it only has amenaing in context.

yes - merely there being a red arrow will make no difference to the water. the water will not turn hot simply because of the presence of a red arrow

Blue crisp bag means what?

[img] [/img]

cheesy wotsits?

mastiles_fanylion - Member

TJ - care to respond to my question about colours?

they have no meaning at all to me. a colour is a colour

And you now accept that. a colour has no meaning without context.

m_f, we used to have a red cool box. Never struck me as odd. Sorry.

Maybe, given that it's made to contain food, they picked a colour that's known to stimulate appetite, rather than surpress it? Nothing to do with how it operates, but perhaps more appropriate for the use. Maybe I ate more at picnics from that than I migh have done if we'd had a blue foodbox.

MF you agree. a colour has no intrinisc meaning - it only has amenaing in context.

edit

Colours might not have a "meaning", but they do influence how we think about things presented to us in combination with those.

The same way sounds, smells and textures, temperatures do.

This has been proved through scientific studies countless times.

TJ says he does not respond to these stimulations in the same way as the rest of the animal kingdom, either because he is being difficult for fun, or because he is a robot.

[img] [/img]

TJ, earlier,

we have no reasonable discussion

I though that was going to be the end of it 😕

a colour has no intrinisc meaning

But it is powerful when used in branding because it carries meaning

which is it? it cannot be both.

[img] [/img]

m_f, we used to have a red cool box. Never struck me as odd. Sorry.

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

[img] &w=200&h=200[/img]

But it is powerful when used in branding because it carries meaning
which is it? it cannot be both.

But it is powerful when used in branding because it carries meaning and it helps identify core values of a product (such as your Ecover washing powder).

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

nedrapier - Member

Colours might not have a "meaning", but they do influence how we think about things presented to us in combination with those.

I was asked what meaning colours have. I gave the answer none. colours do not have a meaning

You accept there is no meaning. even MF has grasped this now I think.

Wahay - look - you have realised the emperor is naked! at least that little bit of him

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

mastiles_fanylion - Member

"But it is powerful when used in branding because it carries meaning"
which is it? it cannot be both.

I have already explained that above but you choose to only copy PART of what I said to take it out of context. Naughty TJ.

"But it is powerful when used in branding because it carries meaning and it helps identify core values of a product (such as your Ecover washing powder)."

Come off it. You have just accepted a colour has no intrinsic meaning. are you now back to claiming it does?

[img] [/img]

Might need a bigger on binners

[img] [/img]

Having cleared up the referent nonsense I think I can answer your question...

FFS guys - what definition of brand do you want me to accept.

is it simply the name of the object?

Or is it the object plus all the other attribute that are not inherent in the object? (edit - molgrips definition)

Or is it the inherent qualities of the object?

... but I may need the use of a metaphor (sorry about that).

A brand is a labelled coathook.

The label can be a name, or a logo/symbol/style/ringtone whatever. Its an identifier. Its job is to be recognised as referring to the particular company, service or product that owns the coathook. When you see/hear the label you look at the coathook.

The hook is somewhere to hang the metaphorical bags, coats and jackets of information you have about that label.

Those bags and coats are not the hook itself, but the hook would be rather pointless without them.

Does that help any?

Of your three offered choices I'm saying it is the first is the truest definition of what a brand is, but it is pointless without the attributes and qualities of the other two (a coathook with no coats is just a hook).

Come off it. You have just accepted a colour has no intrinsic meaning. are you now back to claiming it does?

I am saying it has meaning when in context - a blue arrow for cold water means EXACTLY the same as a blue logo for a cool box. EXACTLY. It is being used to say [b]'THIS IS COLD'[/b]. [i][b]Brrrr![/b][/i]

If you still want to argue that one TJ I really am not going to try to argue it any more because you are either incapable of understanding what I am saying or just arguing for the sake of it.

TJ says he does not respond to these stimulations in the same way as the rest of the animal kingdom, either because he is being difficult for fun, or because he is a robot.

😀

Or can I suggest this test:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

TandemJeremy - Member

nedrapier - Member

Colours might not have a "meaning", but they do influence how we think about things presented to us in combination with those.

I was asked what meaning colours have. I gave the answer none. colours do not have a meaning

You accept there is no meaning. even MF has grasped this now I think.

Wahay - look - you have realised the emperor is naked! at least that little bit of him

That's just sloppy language and you know it.

Read "meaning" as "significance". Colours have significance because the emotional and physiological reactions they tend to produce in people.

No - no help at all.

a coathook with no coats is just a hook

Nope - it remains a coathook. this is the bit you cannot understand. the label is not the object.

a coathook with no coats is just a hook

Nope - it remains a coathook. this is the bit you cannot understand. the label is not the object.

Wow!

Totally backwards and self contradictory, and in such a short sentence! Well into Humpty Dumpty territory here!

That's just sloppy language and you know it.

Yup - you guys are full of it. 🙂 Loads of really sloppy language that makes a nonsesne of much of your argument.

mastiles_fanylion -

I am saying it has meaning when in context ....

...... you are either incapable of understanding what I am saying or just arguing for the sake of it.

sorry - you are still trying to claim it has intrinsic meaning
#

But it is powerful when used in branding because[b] it carries meaning[/b] and it helps identify core values of a product (such as your Ecover washing powder).

In that case you are say that those colours give meaning to the product. They do not.

Blue means cheese and onion to my missues ( walkers crsips)

.

nedrapier - Member

a coathook with no coats is just a hook

Nope - it remains a coathook. this is the bit you cannot understand. the label is not the object.

Wow!

Totally backwards and self contradictory, and in such a short sentence! Well into Humpty Dumpty territory here!

come off it. Is a chair still a chair when no one is sitting on it?

I would have thought that you guys would be good at semantics and rhetoric.

Only if it's a La-Z-Boy!

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14236786 ]On the subject of branding and logos[/url]

Nope - it remains a coathook. this is the bit you cannot understand. the label is not the object.

Fk me. 🙄

I rather thought a metaphor would be wasted on you.

Oh well I think that is something like my 14th attempt to explain it to you and apparently I still don't understand. So perhaps you should explain it to me?

In your opinion is "Nestle" the name of a company or is it the company name???

I'm somewhat uncertain of your distinction and what difference it makes to the argument.

come off it. Is a chair still a chair when no one is sitting on it?

You're confusing the label and the object.

It is labelled "a chair", but it is only a chair when someone is sitting in it 😉

come off it. Is a chair still a chair when no one is sitting on it?

Is a hook with a coat on it a coat hook or a normal hook? what about when you take the coat off again? What about a nail in a door? What about a trendy "shabby chic" coathook made to look like a nail? (and sold for an exhorbitant sum by a famous interior design company)

Labels or things?

Colours have significance because the emotional and physiological reactions they tend to produce in people.

Guys - my final post. it taken a bit of time to write it so stuff might have crossed. Edit - well nearly -two decent points to answeer

I believe the basic premise here which I repeated a number of times. Branding / marketing and so on have less effect that you guys believe and that a lot of it is bullshit. Alot of the meanings and associations you are convinced are there simply do not exist in the real world.

Your arguments are poor and contradictory and your use of language is poor. Your ability to define your concepts is poor. Hence all the stuff over "brand" where you alter your definition to suit your argument or yuo each are using a different definition - or even Graham who wants 3 mutually exclusive definitions.

such things as the stuff over colour - where MF claimed colours have meaning but when shown that this was bobbins had the grace to accept the the only have meaning in context. they have no meaning of their own

the constant confusion between the object and its label ( again I will apologise for the unclear usage of "referent" - trying to be too clever.) Of the confusion between the colour blue and the word "blue". Of the confusion between such concepts as meaning and association.

these rhetorical distinctions are important. using literal meanings is important for clarity. having defined and agreed definitions is crucial. I don't think this has been apparent to you that a lot of the answers I have given has been literal. when the meaning of you r question taken literally is not eh meaning you intend a literal answer confuses.

Now I have been teasing you. thank you for taking it good naturedly on the whole

I hope you can now see some new things tho. That there are people who see the world very differently than you. That to people outside of your shared consensus a lot of what you all accept as true has no validity.

Please do accept my apologies for wasting your time - I hoe its entertained others as much as it has me.

DrJ - Member

Colours have significance because the emotional and physiological reactions they tend to produce in people.

I quite agree and do not deny this - however that is not a meaning. MF claimed colours had meaning

It is labelled "a chair", but it is only a chair when someone is sitting in it

Waht is it then? what does it become when no one is sitting in it?

An egg?

Guys - my final post.

Thought it was too good to be true ...

DrJ - Member
Colours have significance because the emotional and physiological reactions they tend to produce in people.

For the record, I didn't type that.

[img] [/img]

Do flowers have meanings, TJ?

And even if you are being semantically difficult [Edit: and, in retrospect, wrong] in order to weedle out of tight spots, Jez, here's the first page of one hundred and two million google results for "The meaning of colour"

[url] http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=The+meaning+of+Colours&aq=f&aqi=g5&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9eb5d417c1166613&biw=671&bih=179 [/url]

or even Graham who wants 3 mutually exclusive definitions.

They are only mutually exclusive in your head. No one else on the thread seems to be obsessed with whether we are talking about the name of something or something with a name.

your use of language is poor... a lot of the answers I have given has been literal. when the meaning of you r question taken literally is not eh meaning you intend a literal answer confuses.

[img] [/img]

Now I have been teasing you. thank you for taking it good naturedly on the whole

Mainly you've annoyed and exasperated me to the point of giving me ulcers. But it has been good natured.

That there are people who see the world very differently than you.

And those people are wrong. 😀

FFS guys - what definition of brand do you want me to accept.

is it simply the name of the object?

Or is it the object plus all the other attribute that are not inherent in the object? (edit - molgrips definition)

Or is it the inherent qualities of the object?

there really isn't anything clever about branding and logos..

maybe it requires a bit of an artistic eye and a touch of creative flair but other than that there is absolutely nothing intelligent or scientific about it...
certainly nothing interesting..

just my twopence worth like..

there really isn't anything clever about branding and logos..

maybe it requires a bit of an artistic eye and a touch of creative flair but other than that there is absolutely nothing intelligent or scientific about it...
certainly nothing interesting..

just my twopence worth like..

And many thanks for sharing that with us.

@TJ - in the words of the country song - "how can I miss you, when you won't go away?".

maybe it requires a bit of an artistic eye and a touch of creative flair but other than that there is absolutely nothing intelligent or scientific about it...
certainly nothing interesting..

I'm going to assume that this is an attempt to reignite the debate, so I'm not going to respond...

Rubbish.

ok.. I'm not going to read through a gazillion posts of pedantic trite.. but I'd like a little more concise and reasonable version if you will allow it..

I'm more open minded than TJ about this.. but as a visual artist I'm still deeply sceptical..

explain if you will why my assertion is 'rubbish'

I hoe its entertained others as much as it has me.

It has me mate. I bowed out this morning, but I've continued to follow. This really has been the highlight of the internet for me this week. I've never before laughed, completely by myself in an otherwise empty building, at such absurdity. I do hope I'm not alone.

People saying this thread is pointless and boring are failing to see the humour in it. TJ's definitive 'final post' followed immediately by two more posts just finished me off.

And then:

Do flowers have meanings, TJ?

Literal and full bodied LOL.

just my twopence worth like..

Twopence? You'll have to do better than that. Admission to the Bullingdon Club would look like a positive bargain compared with this now. Try [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/clever-logo-well-i-thought-so-anyway ]here[/url].

Splendid thread all round.