[Closed] christian baiting

The point ref Adams was that his reference to holding alternative viewpoints at the same time may have been related to science fiction as I certainly struggle to find logic in what he says. I may be simplistic but if one person tells me the earth is round and another that it is flat. I couldn't believe both of them.

Okay.. if you like 🙂

Btw, there doesn't have to be logic in everything. Or rather, there can be, but not necessarily the same logic you are expecting!

I find it ironic given your viewpoint that you are criticizing me for a literal interpretations of books!

Yeah? Go on.. (interested)

Btw I'm not criticising you that way - I just said that was the impression that you were giving off to me in that post.. I honestly don't know you from my next door neighbour (you could be my next door neighbour for all I know). I'm happy to accept that the medium of STW is as obstructive as any other when it comes to carrying points of view across :0

If you like to speak science, then have a look at Quantum Physics. It's full of "illogical" things that aren't "common sense". How can particles be waves at the same time? What exists depends on how you look at it.. not just what you see but what is actually there. It's a lovely world of uncertainty and certainty at once. I certainly found it all very profound when I was studying it. Not profound enough to do well in the exams mind 🙂

I am he
As you are he
As you are me

I am the Walrus, goo goo gajoo

If you like to speak science, then have a look at Quantum Physics.

I gots me a first in that module at uni. It is, as you say, well weird.

I formulated a concept of Quantum Philosophy at the time - shortly afterwards I saw a book with that exact title in a shop.. which took the wind out of my sails a bit 🙂

I may be simplistic but if one person tells me the earth is round and another that it is flat. I couldn't believe both of them.

Sorry to jump in here, but to me there's a simple answer here - go find out for yourself. In my experience even if someone believes they are telling you 100% truth, whatever they say always has their own slant on it - it's a human trait:-)

If you like to speak science, then have a look at Quantum Physics. It's full of "illogical" things that aren't "common sense". How can particles be waves at the same time? What exists depends on how you look at it.. not just what you see but what is actually there. It's a lovely world of uncertainty and certainty at once. I certainly found it all very profound when I was studying it.

Thanks for that I'll give it a look.

I would also recommend (as well as the obvious Dawkins!) Sam Harris "The end of faith" also "Letter to a Christian nation" Both good reads.
Then Christopher Hitchins, "God is not great" written in his own style! Daniels Dennets work, "Breaking the spell" is also very accesible.

Enjoy!

Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchins and Daniels Dennets are the lesser prophets.

Can't recommend a specific book about Quantum Physics, but maybe something by John Gribbin. He usually write about Astrophysics but I think there's something about the smaller side of things too.

I have a copy of the God Delusion at home waiting to be read - I thought I'd better read it so that I could properly comment. I am not really looking forward to it though as from what I can tell it's a bit of a savage attack on selected parts of religion. The book may have a use as a weapon against ignorance, but I feel it's never going to be read by anyone religious as it's too easily dismissed. In these kind of arguments, you don't win anyone over by attacking them ruthlessly over something that's really personal.

But I will read it (and have a look for those others too) and change my mind if necessary - he does make some excellent and pithy points in the quotes that've been used in arguments against so-called Christian "Science".

but to me there's a simple answer here - go find out for yourself.

Along with everything else on this thread, it's a bit more complicated. You can't always find things out for yourself. There was this programme on telly a while ago about these two scientists that were debating about something to do with Venus. Let's say they were trying to work out if there was any recent volcanism - I can't remember exactly what it was. They argued and argued over the evidence, and they agreed they would have to wait for this probe to go there and map the surface. Well the probe went there and sent back the data, and they both concluded that the data supported their theories. They were totally adamant that they were right.

Both scientists, both looking for truth in a simple logical way, and both very much in the same philosophical camp. What they each saw in the evidence told them different things.

Now of course, in their case there was only really one answer. But then what if you have this cat, in a box...

The book may have a use as a weapon against ignorance, but I feel it's never going to be read by anyone religious as it's too easily dismissed.

There's a whole raft of Christian books about the God Delusion. It's a mini industry. Here's one: http://www.amazon.com/Dawkins-Delusion-Atheist-Fundamentalism-Denial/dp/083083446X/ref=pd_bbs_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236175319&sr=8-8

but I feel it's never going to be read by anyone religious as it's too easily dismissed.

Well religious people do read it but Dawkins seems to aim it at agnostics as a way of pushing them into atheism - failed with me. I found it lacked the academic feel I hoped and seemed more 'bloke down pub' level at times. I suppose he was just trying to get a best seller and get lots of commited atheists to buy it so they can agree with him....

[i]I have a copy of the God Delusion at home waiting to be read - I thought I'd better read it so that I could properly comment. I am not really looking forward to it though as from what I can tell it's a bit of a savage attack on selected parts of religion. The book may have a use as a weapon against ignorance, but I feel it's never going to be read by anyone religious as it's too easily dismissed. In these kind of arguments, you don't win anyone over by attacking them ruthlessly over something that's really personal.[/i]

It's not a personal attack, it's just a reasoned debate on the topic of religion, yes it concentrates mostly on Christianity but applies to most religion, it's also got some fascinating insights into the human psyche, the "need" for religion and various arguments for and against the existance of 'God(s)'
BUT - it's not an easy read, none of Dawkins stuff really is. The only way I could read it was to dip into it in an almost random fashion, for me at least trying to read it cover to cover just didn't work. I've just finished Richard Dawkins book Climbing Mount Improbable which is about evolution and how it happens, again good read but tough going at times.

Asking them for money, you mean? Wow, atheism [i]is[/i] just like a religion!

I challenge you to read or listen to anything by McGrath. Dawkins did him a huge favour and increased his profile no end.
McGraths book has been grasped by believers all over as they hope for a reasoned response to Dawkins. It pales in comparions but thats hardly important when your pushing on an open door!

Along with everything else on this thread, it's a bit more complicated. You can't always find things out for yourself.

I know, but it illustrates some of the reasons for faith/belief/religion/other working so well. If you can't find out something for yourself you have to form your own opinion based on what others tell you or believe what one source tells you is the truth. The problem I think a lot of people have is that they blindly believe what others say, rather than agreeing but leaving their mind open to other opinions.

I almost said "other facts" there, but then facts are invariably opinion too because scientific fact is invariably tweaked or just shown to be utterly incorrect over the course of time.

If you think about it, it's pretty cool that almost every aspect of our existence is constantly changing and very little is ever entirely certain.....

The problem I think a lot of people have is that they blindly believe what others say, rather than agreeing but leaving their mind open to other opinions

Absolutely, and that goes for both sides too. Sciencies and Goddies.

If you think about it, it's pretty cool that almost every aspect of our existence is constantly changing and very little is ever entirely certain.....

Agreed 🙂

Along with everything else on this thread, it's a bit more complicated. You can't always find things out for yourself.

Can you not? I've been firing peas into each other, to try to split them. (I kept losing quarks under the fridge, so had to use something bigger.)

Can you not? I've been firing peas into each other, to try to split them. (I kept losing quarks under the fridge, so had to use something bigger.)

quote of the day, love it. 😀

Getting back to the original thread title, is there not something rather sad about posting something titled "Christian baiting"? Had the title been "Quite amusing spoof article" then it would have been fair enough, but desperately hoping to attract the anger of a group that couldn't care less about you is really rather pitiful. I wonder if the poster would wander about Brixton dressed as a golliwog? Not got the guts probably.

The actual article isn't ridiculing Christians, it's ridiculing the Christian right - ie those who are trying to stop other people doing stuff that they believe is right.

The mistake is considering Christians as one homogeneous group that all think the same way...

Agreed, the article was poking fun (probably justifiably) at the more extreme end of the Christian faith. However I was more trying to make the point that trying to provoke a backlash with a title like "Christian baiting" was rather puerile. Posting a link to the article was fair enough, it was quite funny. However the thread title was a rather sad troll.

Just type "Pat Condell" in on youtube. Hilarious and witty.

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Tyrany of Scripture[/url]

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no feet...er...handy

"I find the business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously" (Adams)

Because it's incredibly useful, both to individuals and to societies. Choosing religion over atheism/agnosticism might just be the most intelligent decision of your life.

In my last job I spent a lot of time with families of lots of different religions. Sikh, Hindu Muslim, Jew, Zoroastrian, Bhuddist, Jain, Christian.

All of them are fundamentally the same. Its 90% culture & behavoiour, 10% about the god. (or lack of it)

They've got things about being nice to each other, forgiveness, obedience
They've got bits about health & safety - don't eat meat & fish that make you ill in hot climates, like pork & prawns. Don't shag your sister.

Oddly, it was only Christian houses that didn't make it clear that they were religious followers.

Oh - and in my experience, the muslims were the most tolerant of the lot. Zoroastrians are the coolest, but you can't choose to become one.

Don't shag your sister.