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Christian Voice is one bloke with a photocopier and a mailing list, who somehow gets an awful lot of airtime.
He [u]should[/u] get a lot of therapy and an unlimited stay in an institution. Makng fun of people with mental health issues is not allowed in any other part of the media 🙂
SSP
So where can your hope be found? Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike? There's a better life to be had but it requires faith and reading some of these replies, it's seems that it's sadly lacking - no offence meant, just an observation.
Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike?
Drink?
But those belief systems are the basis of dangerous amounts of power, money, and violence.
No, not at all. Those belief systems are used as a [b]PRETEXT[/b] for violence etc. Not the same thing at all.
If something makes sense then by definition it needs to make sense to everybody
That is just plain wrong. It's like saying that everyone has to like the same bands because they are good, or like the same films. Just wrong wrong wrong. We are all entitled to see the world as we wish. We are NOT entitled to show violence to those who disagree, aggressively try and force others to abandon their beliefs or [b]otherwise behave in a prejudicial way[/b].
If people find value or strength in believing in things that are basically unprovable fairy stories then that causes me no issue, it still doesnt make those stories true however.
Religion is a lot more than the fairy stories about creation etc.
have you HEARD Thought For The Day?
Yeah, it's quite good usually. The best ones are the non-Christian ones - perhaps because they are in the minority in the UK and have to try harder, knowing their beliefs are not going to be accepted as easily by the majority of the listeners.
At the crux of this is the argument that faith and belief is personal and harmless.
It can be. The way you think inside your own head is different to the way you behave towards others. I don't believe in God, but I respect others' rights to do so. I most vehemently deny their right to for instance indoctrinate my kids or take political action based on their religious beliefs.
the Pope continues to tell people in Sub Saharan Africa that the use of Condoms is wrong whilst millions die each year from Aids and scientific research is halted in the US through an irrational belief that stem cell research is wrong people need to speak out against religion
I disagree heartily with both those things. However I know a lot of religious people that agree with me. Those things you mention are to do with the Catholic establishment and certain sects of conservative Christianity. They are by no means universal - remember that. Don't be prejudiced against all religious people.
If people find value or strength in believing in things that are basically unprovable fairy stories then that causes me no issue, it still doesnt make those stories true however.
Some folk believe that [b]truth[/b] is the only bottom line. Others however don't. Is that ok with you? 🙂
Truth is entirely subjective anyway. Try and get your head round that, then come back to the issue.
So where can your hope be found? Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike? There's a better life to be had but it requires faith and reading some of these replies, it's seems that it's sadly lacking - no offence meant, just an observation.
I find solace in my wife, friends and family, in riding my bike and fettling things. If disaster strikes I will use my knowlege and skills to overcome it, I do not relly on out side help to wish it away.
Is there a better life? I don't think so, you have one and its up to you to make it what you want. Again, wishing that on the next go it all falls into place is not how to spend your limited time on this planet.
I have faith, but its in people. Normal everyday people who do the most amazing things for each other. I have seen this, I know it happens and I try to do it my self. No god needed.
Having said that the whole "if you don't belive in X your life is lacking and somewhat dull" strikes me as rather rude and it makes the assumption that you are right. Which damages my faith in people...ahhh bu66er.
SSP
Don't be prejudiced against all religious people.
Fair enough.
So where can your hope be found? Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike? There's a better life to be had.
But could religious people practice the same principles please? This post implies that I am a nihilistic, apathetic, dead loss, who could 'be better' if I just [i]believed[/i].
I am certain where I am going, I am responsible for the things that happen in my life and how I deal with them. I don't [i]want[/i] a better life (whatever that means) I'm very happy where I am.
Tyger said
Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike?
Bikes, books (ironically, I like fiction, just like you do. Not the same kind though), family, friends, music, art etc. Cats are nice. And food.
Have you actually read any of the replies about satisfaction being gained by any other means other than believing in an imaginary bloke with a beard?
Do you believe that this is actually possible?
If not, then rational argument is not for you my striped friend. Try totalitarianism, you'll feel right at home.
Molgrips
Thought for the day is like a Party Political Broadcast for the anti rationalist party.
Some of the humanistic sentiments expressed are fine and agreed with by all, I would hope.
But they do insist on bringing God into it.
what I always struggle to understand is why religious people think that the only way to do the right thing by the rest of humanity is to belive in god(s).
why can't we just do the right thing [i]because[/i] it's the right thing to do not because we fear reprisals by some supreme being at some point in the future?
SSP - I think I agree wholeheartedly there. While I agree it is possible something "higher" may exist, and I could in no way disprove that, I also dont think it has any relation to my day to day life. I wont be forced to abide by someone elses ideas of what I should think and do - I go by what I consider to be right and wrong based on what I would like done to me etc. This is fairly similar to the teachings of several religions, but without the threat of an overlord that reigns death on those who stray or wont let them into a pretty heaven.
I have no problems with people thinking there may be a higher being, but people believing in a religion, an organised religion believing in a special certain person or people seems very weird. Especially when their answer to everything difficult is "well thats just what we believe". My grandparents were fairly religious - as war heros and weekly churchgoers religion enriched their lives and gave them something to look forward to at the end. From me and my own two eyes - I just cant see it and I cant have faith in something I have not seen actively working. To claim everything around you, good and bad, is proof of god is a simple getout clause that cannot be disproved.
As mentioned earlier - science is progressive, as it moves it learns, as it learns it changes its outlook to adapt - it doesnt stick rigidly to unprovable facts unless public opinion changes and makes it less popular. Most of the things mentioned earlier about fantastic particles being based on made up theories and experiements made to prove their existence etc have missed the point - thats not the case. The relationships found to explain one item PREDICT another, so the scientists then search to see if its true. This is, IMO, different from coming up with a theory from nothing and then trying to devise an experiment to prove it.
why can't we just do the right thing because it's the right thing to do not because we fear reprisals by some supreme being at some point in the future?
I think this principle is enshrined in religion because if we just did what was right for the person, opinions may change with time and location. For example a serial killer may think he is doing something good for the person he kills, whereas religion would say killing isnt right in general. Though the same weird killer could well twist religion to mean the same thing.
So where can your hope be found? Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike? There's a better life to be had but it requires faith and reading some of these replies, it's seems that it's sadly lacking - no offence meant, just an observation.
See thats the problem. I see no problem finding hope and peace in myself and those around me.Should disaster strike I'll accept something bad has happened but theres a logical set of things I need to do to get out of that situation. What do I have to believe in an overlord to have hope etc? Make the most of the life you have now, if there turns out to be no better life for you you'll have wasted yours worrying about some imaginary bloke that gives a damn about 6.6billion other people at the same time. I resent you suggestion that lack of faith somehow makes me a lesser person.
what I always struggle to understand is why religious people think that the only way to do the right thing by the rest of humanity is to belive in god(s).
Well some might but I don't think that this is common opinion. The bible says the only way to heaven is through believing in Jesus, the resurrection and asking to be saved, but many Christians think good works are the key. The more bibilically led Christians say that good works are not the key though of course they expect Christians to do good things. Therefore they are entirely aware that non-Christians do good things!
Some folk believe that truth is the only bottom line. Others however don't. Is that ok with you? [:)]Truth is entirely subjective anyway. Try and get your head round that, then come back to the issue.
I suspect you are naive if you think government policy and consequently the distribution of scarce resources is not dictated by the religious beliefs of those in power. Your image of bicycling Vicars and cucumber sandwiches is off the mark and whilst its motherhood and apple pie for us all to have our beliefs accepted the liberal picture you paint does nobody any favours.
In reality 80% of Americans believe in Creationism and the fact that it should be taught alongside evolution theory in schools.
Moderate believers provide cover for this nonsense and as Harris points out it should be seen as an intellectual emergency.
Truth maybe subjective as a philosophical concept but you gain no brownie points in explaining this to those millions of Africans who die annually as a result of the Popes skewed interpretation of truth.
Having said that the whole "if you don't belive in X your life is lacking and somewhat dull" strikes me as rather rude and it makes the assumption that you are right.
No ruder than thinking all religious people want brown people to have AIDS, have sex with choirboys, want to blow up Stuart Lee, believe in a six day creation and are against stem cell research...
But, I agree with your sentiment. Plus, some Christians are right bitchy, miserable, bastards 🙂
MudsharkI'm sure he does - well thinks that they're wrong - but he's saying that a belief in God isn't necessarily incompatable with evolution. He stated that he's agnostic so has he said he's atheist elsewhere?
TBH I don't know. I just like to think that The Mighty Attenborough kicks off occasionally screaming and ranting about his displeasure concerning these idiotic skin tubes.
[All hail The Mighty Attenborough].
So, all sorted out then? 🙂
I'll leave you for a bit with this. No idea what it means, but it always goes through my head on repeat whilst discussing religion.
Do you belive in high ideals,
Or In a white chalk horse upon a distant hill?
Do you place your trust in paramilitary skills
Or powder and pills?
I am not very convinced by the idea that a majority of ordinary, gentle believers are in the wrong because they somehow "provide cover" for insane extremists. The idea that moderates legitimise extremists, if applied to virtually any area of opinion leaves you with very little room to move.
Do vegetarians provide cover for Animal Liberation Front corpse-exhumers?
Do anti-immigration Conservatives legitimise Combat 18?
Do sufis legitimise wahhabist suicide bombers?
etc etc
🙂
[i]Having said that the whole "if you don't belive in X your life is lacking and somewhat dull" strikes me as rather rude and it makes the assumption that you are right.[/i]No ruder than thinking all religious people want brown people to have AIDS, have sex with choirboys, want to blow up Stuart Lee, believe in a six day creation and are against stem cell research...
I don't think that so don't put words in to my mouth/post. As I have said before it's the liberal, nice congregation that gives the powerbase for the objectionable nutters who carry out and propergate those crimes. Infact the nice liberal people who believe same texts / book / interpretation as the nutters [u]they just choose to leave bits out[/u] which I find rather half-hearted and hypocritical. If you are going to cherry-pick there is a whole world of religions and philosphies out there to browse for ideas, why restric yourself.
Be nice because you are nice, not because a bloke in a funny hat says so or that you might get bu66ered for all eternity by the devil if you don't.
I also never said my way was [u]right[/u] or that I have the FSM on my side (so watch out!) Its my own belief, relient on nothing but me and probably not that great for other people as we are all different. The Dalai Lama said that with 60billion people on the planet we might need 60billion religions. One size does not fit all.
SSP
The Dalai Lama said that with 60billion people on the planet we might need 60billion religions. One size does not fit all.
i.e. believe what you like providing you're nice to each other lol. Fair points!
To call it conjecture is to say it cant be proved
This is supposing that we're not just experiencing a collective dream. Going back to Descartes "I think, therefore I am", it's incontrovertible that I exist to experience these sensations, and it's plausible to posit the existence of an external reality shared with other similar beings, but beyond that one runs into conjecture
I don't think that so don't put words in to my mouth/post.
Sorry Alex, was comparing some views of religious people offered in this thread with the view you were commenting upon, not saying that they were your views.
How did I guess that this would be a century thread?
In reality 80% of Americans believe in Creationism and the fact that it should be taught alongside evolution theory in schools.
While I agree with the general direction of your argument, I'm not sure where you get your figures from- heres some from 2004:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml
This is supposing that we're not just experiencing a collective dream
You mean, such as if [url= http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram.html ]our world were just a giant hologram[/url]?
SSP I find solace in my wife, friends and family, in riding my bike and fettling things. If disaster strikes I will use my knowlege and skills to overcome it, I do not relly on out side help to wish it away.
When my wife had cancer and despite my knowledge and the doctors knowledge, it was our faith and prayers that really made the difference.
Truth maybe subjective as a philosophical concept but you gain no brownie points in explaining this to those millions of Africans who die annually as a result of the Popes skewed interpretation of truth.
You're getting a philosophical argument mixed up with a doctrinal one. It's like saying bikers are lazy because downhillers use chair-lifts. The Pope is not religion, he's not even Christianity. Not really a rational argument (haha).
Thought for the day is like a Party Political Broadcast for the anti rationalist party.
Yeah, I watch party political broadcasts too. For parties I don't support! 😯 Go on, ask me why!
Your image of bicycling Vicars and cucumber sandwiches is off the mark and whilst its motherhood and apple pie for us all to have our beliefs accepted the liberal picture you paint does nobody any favours.
Eh? Wtf did I mention the bicycling vicar myth? I'm talking about the validity of holding beliefs. I have said several times that I'm against many things done in the name of religion. I think you are really not understanding what I am trying to say. I am making a philosophical point (not even a theological one). The discussion about the influence of politics in religion is another argument entirely. We can have that discussion if you like, I'm happy to join in - and I suspect I agree with you mostly.
I am not advocating religion or Christianity; as said before I am not religious. I am suggesting that most of the negative things done in the name of religion are not intrinsic to that religion (despite what the perpetrators would say) - rather to those folk that are without tolerance and compassion.
If I get ripped of by Irish pikeys resurfacing my drive, is it because they are Irish pikeys or because they are unscrupulous scumbags?
I do not relly on out side help to wish it away
That's not really how it's meant to work. You don't ask God to do stuff for you, you ask God to help you do stuff yourself. A lot of Christians seem to have trouble with that too tho. Then again a lot of Christians believe a lot of weird stuff but hey, that's the way the world is 🙂
That's not really how it's meant to work. You don't ask God to do stuff for you, you ask God to help you do stuff yourself. A lot of Christians seem to have trouble with that too tho. Then again a lot of Christians believe a lot of weird stuff but hey, that's the way the world is
I know some Christians who pray for a parking space when they go shopping. I know others who feel God probably has more important things to be doing.
bicycling Vicars
I do hope that we'd be impressed by seeing one of these rather than amused!
I do hope that we'd be impressed by seeing one of these rather than amused!
I know of some.
Stuck on my windscreen again the other week:
[img] 
[/img]
Mostly we just accept was scientists tell us rather than investigate things ourselves. Apparently the moon isn't made of cheese but I think the milk marketing board is behind a cover up.
HERE HERE!!!
i know what i can see, hear taste, touch.
i believe in what i can personally extrapolate from the above 4, and justify in my own mind as reasonable.
in the same way the electrician in the office worked out what the problem was without seeing the problem.
through logical thought, a few assumptions based on previous experience and "deduction my dear watson"
listen to everyone, trust no-one
I've had that one too Coffeeking. Just about all the misapprehensions about evolutionary theory in four short paragpraphs. The good old 'argument of incredulity', irreducible complexity, and the 'how do you see with a quarter of an eye' chestnut.
Sorry to hear you have been affected by cancer Tyger, but I have to answer this one. My wife is a specialist registrar in palliative care. She deals with dozens of terminally ill patients every year. Lots of them, like yourselves, were praying for an intervention that the doctors couldn't give them. They still died. Why should that be?
While I think I want, say, my bank or my gas supplier to do what I want immediately on first time of asking, I rather assume that god is considerably more complicated...
If people don't beleive in evolution and think that god created the world approximately 6500 years ago (after the Sumerians had invented glue ffs!) I really fear for their sanity.
If they can't accept the gradual evolution of one form of life from another over millions of years, how can they possibly explain how god came into existance? A being so complex he can manipulate the universe on a molecular level to crate the world we live in, complete with fake fossils of extraordinary animals to test our faith, while simultaneously reading everyones minds and responding to their thoughts. Where did he come from, who made god?
Complete and utter madness, a load of dingo's kidneys, a fairy story is right.
regarding prayer...Richard Dawkin outlines an experiment where three groups of very ill people are split up so that one group was being prayed for and didn't know it, one group was being prayed for and did know it, while the third group were not being prayed for atall. The group being prayed for who knew it fared the worst out of the three (pressure to perform?) Prayer doen't work, might make the person doing the praying feel better but thats it.
Religion should be banned as SSP stated 'normal' religious people just give a pool of delusion from which the extremists spring.
As someone once said 'good men will always do good deeds, evil men will alway do evil deeds, but it takes religion to make a good man do evil deeds'
I know some Christians who pray for a parking space when they go shopping.
I also know of some that rant against live saving medical advances etc etc. That's kind of my point, really.
Religion should be banned as SSP stated 'normal' religious people just give a pool of delusion from which the extremists spring.
I can imagine that banning religion wouldn't at all increase the number of extremists.
Personally, I'm waiting for the first person using atheism as a justification of some horrendous act.
regarding prayer...Richard Dawkin outlines an experiment where three groups of very ill people are split up so that one group was being prayed for and didn't know it, one group was being prayed for and did know it, while the third group were not being prayed for atall. The group being prayed for who knew it fared the worst out of the three (pressure to perform?) Prayer doen't work, might make the person doing the praying feel better but thats it.
That really annoys me - bad science. In fact by metioning it Dawkins weakens his position as mixes science with bllx.
good men will always do good deeds, evil men will alway do evil deeds, but it takes religion to make a good man do evil deeds'
Curiously, many evil men have become good through religion so more bllx there.
I rather assume that god is considerably more complicated...
Are you going to tell He moves in mysterious ways next? Sarah has told me of decent, christian families who have devoted their lives to praying for their terminally ill children, but they still died. If He's not going to intervene at the first asking, just how many times DO you have to ask?
Personally, I'm waiting for the first person using atheism as a justification of some horrendous act.
Eugenics?
mudshark - Memberregarding prayer...Richard Dawkin outlines an experiment where three groups of very ill people are split up so that one group was being prayed for and didn't know it, one group was being prayed for and did know it, while the third group were not being prayed for atall. The group being prayed for who knew it fared the worst out of the three (pressure to perform?) Prayer doen't work, might make the person doing the praying feel better but thats it.
That really annoys me - bad science. In fact by metioning it Dawkins weakens his position as mixes science with bllx.
Yes on the one hand we have mudsharks opinion of science on the other hand the current Professor for Public Understanding of Science at Oxford. It is a tough choice but I am going to stick my kneck out here and have faith in the fact that Dawkins is just a litlle more knowledgable on science than Mudshark .... if only I could gather some evidence to proof it mmmmm there is a thought.
Mudshark, name an evil man who has became good through religion. And would his evil deeds be forgiven or negated because he then decided to believe in a fairy story?(bllx from you)
Look at the evils done in the name of religion, by good men who were gulible enough to beleive they were doing god's work. All the holy wars down through the years, not to mention the number of gulible young muslims blowing themselves and others up due to a twisted interpretation of their fairystory fed to them by truely evil men.
The study about prayer was done by beleivers, do you think they would have held back if the results supported prayer? Of course they then backtracked on the result when it didn't suit them by pointing out that god would have seen through their study and not played along to punish them (or somesuch) It is bad science, but bad science by the pious.
The thing I always ask religious friends is, how do they know they've chosen the right one? How daft will they feel when they walk through the pearly gates to find a guy with six arms sitting waiting for them, or just as plausibly, an omnipotent plate of pasta?
It's rather fascinating seeing how some people are happy to posit an argument based on no knowledge and little fact when it comes to discussions of religion and berate people who choose to have a faith of some description and yet will quite happily exhibit those very tendencies when it comes to arguing about the benefits and joys of mountain biking or one bike / part / etc over another. The truth of the matter is that you have extremists in almost all walks of life and the argument shouldn't come down to knocking a belief system because there are bunch of nutters at the extreme ends. And since when was evolution a 100% guaranteed, proven fact? And these completely infallible scientists who are obviously intelligent and superior because they don't believe in any religious system always get everythint right do they? LIke global warming? No playing with figures there is there, or bad science? Oh no, because they are intelligent human beings who know everything and would never make a mistake. Or what about the big bang? So you find it hugely amusing that a large number of people choose to believe in a devine being but are happy to believe that suddenly, like a Paul Daniels magic trick a couple of atoms mysteriously appeared into the cosmos (which of course didn't exist at that time) and exploded with such a mighty bang that we have a universe that is trillions of miles wide and still growing and filled with all manner of gas and rocks and minerals. Right. And you think Christians are a funny bunch? So which of these can be conclusively proved? The universe started with a big bang or God doesn't exist? I don't know about you but I am not sure I am in any qualified to authoritatively and conclusively argue either of those. While Christianity may get knocked it does provide a framework and a moral guide to many people against which they can assess their decisions and how they live their lives, to motivate them to think of others and do good for society as a wider entity that just themselves. For all the hilarity in these posts I don't think anyone would necessarily disagree with the fundamental guidelines of Christianity or see them as somehow bad. But then again, in order to know what they are you would have to know what you are talking about and to have studied what those core beliefs are. And that's just too much effort for most on here so instead we will pick up on the fundamentalist weirdos and octogenarian vicars with their tea parties to show that Christianity is somehow just for sheep who cannot think for themselves and somehow believe in a fairy story. And Richard Dawkins is not a self centred, pompous cock is he?
Ho hum.
Mike - Stalin is a good example of someone using "atheism" as an excuse perpetrate mass murder.
Spaceman, sadly, banning religion doesn't work, it just drives it underground and would appear have the opposite effect to that intended. Various states have tried it over the last few centuries, and it just doesn't work - fails to take human fallibility into account unfortunately.
Some people can't reject that which is obviously nonsense, whether due to a weakness of character, peer pressure, stubbornness, fear or centuries of social conditioning. People still smoke, for example despite all the damning evidence against.
The only thing that works is debate and education.
Biking catastrophe - I was raised as a Catholic and attended Catholic Secondary School and Sixth Form college. Most of my family are believers.
We often engage in debates regarding this subject. I usually lose!
People have the right to believe exactly what they like, but as been stated numerous times in this thread, there is simply no scientific basis for belief in a higher being, and like it or not, science is the only way our tiny brains can rationally comprehend the universe and our continued insights into our existence.
All else is bunk.
Goon, "Lots of them, like yourselves, were praying for an intervention that the doctors couldn't give them. They still died. Why should that be? "
My point was that for those who have faith death is not the end and also it really made a difference in being able to cope with something you have no control over.
name an evil man who has became good through religion.
There are lots of examples of former gang members and the like becoming Christians and renouncing their violent past.