The flyer avoids a lot of Le Pen's more contentious policiies, Footflats. Happily the TV journalists did a good job of drawing her into clarrifying her position on the stuff that isn't in the tract (Google "Le Pen profession de foi" and "Commission nationale de contrôle de la campagne électorale" for insights). As the interviews and debates went on people got a better handle on the realities behind the tract and her polling deteriorated.
Yeah, it's totally off-topic, piemonster. I did try to include some China content in my posts but ended up just responding to the French and Brexit stuff.
There's an entire thread dedicated to the French presidential election and another one dedicated to brexit.
They spent most of 2020 bombarding their citizens with images of how badly ‘The West’ was **** up Covid, and contrasting it with their magnificent handling of the situation.
China's zero covid policy predates the global pandemic and the virus's establishment in the West. It's hard to imagine that it was established as some sort of complex propaganda exercise especially considering the devastating economic consequences.
Are there many Western countries that didn't screw up their handling of the pandemic?
On the whole I think the majority of Western countries did really well. The initial lockdowns meant that the health services reached capacity but were rarely overloaded and even then transfers of patients from the worst affected areas kept deaths down. Populations respnded wel to restrictions and mask wearing. Vaccines were developed faster than hoped and worked wel enough to end lock downs.
Looking back it was and impresive effort and continues. The last two busses I took in France and Spain had 100% mask compliance. Mask wearing in shops in Spain is still the norm. People have behaved very responsibly and that has meant the health service has coped and society continued to function.
China would do well to take us as a model but seems intent on a futile zero policy - because Omicron is to contaigeous to contain if enough people to maintain basic services reamin active.
China is not the only country which has had a zero covid policy. Haven't most Asian countries which experienced the various viral outbreaks in the recent past applied that policy? Certainly South Korea did :
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/17/south-korea-covid-uk-pandemic
"At the start of the pandemic, Seoul pursued a zero-Covid policy."
"South Korea has attracted a lot of attention for following a specific “east Asian” playbook of maximum suppression"
Although I believe South Korea might have abandoned that policy now.
Lots of recent videos coming from China on reddit.
Crazy scenes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/shanghai?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Wow that reddit page is incredible.
China would do well to take us as a model but seems intent on a futile zero policy – because Omicron is to contagious to contain if enough people to maintain basic services remain active.
Highly unlikely seeing they tell their population that the west are lazy and ignorant.
Kinda works, when going into the office first thing most of the poor devils were asleep at their desks and had been there all night.
China would do well to take us as a model but seems intent on a futile zero policy
If China had the same death rate from Covid as France or the UK, they'd have lost close to 3 million people already, and be losing in the region of 20,000 people a week still now. A hard choice to make for any government. At some point they will have to change policy dramatically, but I don't think they're going to be ready to use our countries as a model for handling a pandemic any time soon.
So where does that leave them? Triple vaccination with RN vaccines has been very much a part of the European strategy and that part of the model would significantly cut China's death rate in the elderly. That isn't happening.
There were debates in Europe about sabotaging the lives of the young to increase the life expectancy of the elderly, they seem even more pertinant in China where measures are more severe. The economic damage will drive many into poverty, more than it did here with shorter less restrictive lock downs.
I've been in Spain recently and the number of tourist/pilgrim dependant business failures is depressing. We talked to bar and accomodation owners who were hanging on for an increase in business that so far isn't happening. Business owners have run out of cash and patience.
Omicron has gone through France in a couple of waves, the first one when it arrived and the second when we took our masks off. The second was also the one when people just threw in the towel on looking after themselves. It went though Madame's school (she caught it within 4 days of the kids' masks coming off in schools) in about three weeks and the teachers that hadn't already had it caught it, even those who like Madame who continued to wear masks themselves.
Despite that the death rate (edit: and long Covid rate) has been acceptable to the population, a thank you to Pfizer and Moderna.
I find it baffling that China can shut down a whole city but cant manage to vaccinate its population.
I find it baffling that China can shut down a whole city but cant manage to vaccinate its population.
they have - but their vaccine is (relatively) ineffective.
So where does that leave them?
In a very difficult position. But they'd also be in a difficult position if 3 million people had died, and thousands were still dying every day. Hard choices. No good options.
We in Europe aren't in a difficult position (apart from an unrelated war) and nearly 2 million people have died:
As of April 17, 2022, there have been 1,944,657 deaths in Europe overall due to the coronavirus (COVID-19) since the first recorded European ...
I think that given the options that Europe was faced with the best ones were chosen. Things haven't been good but are a lot better with 70%+ of the population having had the virus after vaccination and having survived in reasonable health.
Well, there's the balance. China haven't had millions of deaths. And don't still have thousands more dying every single day. They've taken a different path. There are huge costs either way. Hard choices. No good options.
If there's stuff going on in China it's probably something to do with this guy.
https://palladiummag.com/2021/10/11/the-triumph-and-terror-of-wang-huning/
Nobody knows how many people have died in china, because the government is utterly untrustworthy.
Unlike all the other governments in the world?
The United Nations World Health Organisation seems to feel it knows :
https://covid19.who.int/region/wpro/country/cn
I said hey,
"Been trying, to meet you"
I don't know why our politicians aren't talking about this or why it isn't getting more coverage in the news? It's disgraceful really how the Chinese are treated.
Vaccination programmes in China didn't do the old and infirm. They did "key workers", then adults, then kids.
If they try to "live with the virus" they'll have mass deaths amongst that unvaccinated group. I think they're waiting on their own home-grown mRNA vaccines to resolve this situation. Might be another 6/7 months away though.
Boosters have been on the go for a bit. I got my first two late, but have been relatively safe in the "west" of the country. Just got my booster, again a bit late. I believe the inactivated vaccines we've had are reasonably effective against Omicron once you've had 3 shots.
Asides from "key workers", the programme is voluntary. This is where people might be getting protection and numbers wrong. See, I'm hearing a lot of voices saying they won't take the booster. That they've done what the party asked and got their first two jabs, but now they don't want any more, want changes to lifestyles after so long living how they have been.
Psychiatric/counseling treatment "may" have risen during the last two years. The face of the high street changed, internal and external tourism, supplies of luxury goods drying up. Changes to young people's educational systems have been happening. The latest change on 1st May regarding employer treatment equality of those who attend FE colleges will be interesting to watch.
Meanwhile, a second economic stream is being constructed. Internal, I guess in case of isolationism in future.
Speaking of finances, my electric, gas and water cost £14.50 last month for two of us in a 3bed apartment. Didn't have to use the heating any more.
EDIT: regarding the green covered fencing that went up in Shanghai. We were used to that in other cities. It provides privacy for the community, and prevents people going in and out and spreading the virus. People get caught breaching guidelines, spitting on people, fighting with security. Mentally ill people, or just people who didn't get punched in the face enough growing up. The fences aren't making prisons. The communities we live in are large, fairly spacious, and green. You can, masked up, get adequate exercise inside your community if you steer clear of others on the running tracks.
I find it baffling that China can shut down a whole city but cant manage to vaccinate its population.
they have – but their vaccine is (relatively) ineffective.
Not very well, very poor take up in the older people, the ones who most need it.
And, as mentioned before, their home brew vaccines are less than 50% effective...
@footflaps It's a bit difficult to say "take up" is "very poor" for older people when they weren't allowed to have them. You're suggesting they could walk in, flash their ID card and and get them in their arms!
Our cleaners at work were over the age. The dismay on their faces told us everything we needed to know.
for older people when they weren’t allowed to have them
That I didn't know, I'd seen graphs of rates by age group but I'm sure they suggested or stated that it was poor take up rather than not permitted.
Got the GF to check online, just in case it had changed. If the old person has an underlying health issue, they can get their doctor to authorize it. Otherwise, they're blocked from having it.
Take up is similar to the West, but the vulnerable people (old) don't really have it. Hence, in my eyes, the ongoing zero-covid policy. It'd end up like the UK care homes when our gov discharged covid patients into them.
Thanks @dazh genuinely fascinating article.
My mind always boggles at China. As that article says its experiencing much of the same problems we have in the west, but rather than throwing their hands up as we do and saying nothing can be done, they instead take radical - and ruthless - action. Their approach to covid is a good example of that. My major question is whether it's possible to combine the Chinese will to enact change with the Western anti-authoritarian, individualist mindset? I have no idea if it is possible but suspect it would have major benefits if it was.
An excellent read, dazh. If you add Europe to the comparison it becomes even more interesting. If you look at the list of problems common to China and US and then EU law you'll find that the ills listed can be fought within a democratic system which is also decentralised to the point of being a community of countries.
If there’s stuff going on in China it’s probably something to do with this guy
That was a very interesting article
Worth a listen from last night:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016pwc
My major question is whether it’s possible to combine the Chinese will to enact change with the Western anti-authoritarian, individualist mindset? I have no idea if it is possible but suspect it would have major benefits if it was.
Maybe the closest you'd get to that would be the Aus/NZ experience? Total deaths in Oz is <8000 people. We have 84% 'fully vaccinated'(behind Spain, but pretty high), had the longest lockdowns in the world in Melbourne (apparently) and have mandated vaccination in some industries. All despite a vocal minority of anti-COVID-vaxxers.
National bullshit pride is stopping using any foreign vaccines that are more effective. The CCP are just hell bent on their authoritarian ways, Chinese superiority yarn they wish to spin so as to bolster national pride, nationalism and an increasingly aggressive stance towards Taiwan.
With earlier hostility towards AstraZeneca China cannot be the only country accused of attaching nationalistic considerations to their vaccination policy.