Ahh. Sad news. I’d assumed, being so large, the US wasn’t all privately owned as it is here. Well in that case :
you won’t believe this, but the publicly (government?) owned parks really frown on shooting the trees! i thought it was a free country!
Surprised nobody has said this, but surely one of the childminders can look after the dog whilst the other looks after the kids…
again, i’m not sure if this is jocular, but the op isn’t paying the daycare to look after a dog.
i’d be very surprised if the dog was going to be using the same parts of the house as the children.
i’d be very surprised if the dog was going to be using the same parts of the house as the children.
Ooh, interesting, because I'd presumed (based on nothing) that the dog would be sharing the same parts of the house as the children. Now I have to know.
There is only one person looking after the kids. It is not a daycare with staff.
There is the lounge and small garden accessed through the kitchen where the kids are allowed to go so unless they are further limiting the kids access or the dog is locked upstairs away from the kids they will be together.
I have asked the questions yesterday and am awaiting answers.
In terms of asking if it's a dick move; either they knew they were going to get it but didn't inform anyone until the day after we paid Junes fees and haven't bothered sending out any information, risk assessments, etc with the notification or they have bought it on a whim and haven't considered any of the above. Either of the above options constitutes a dick move in my view.
There is only one person looking after the kids. It is not a daycare with staff.
Not according to the thread title 😉
didn’t inform anyone until the day after we paid Junes fees
Just ask for a refund explaining your reasons and see what she says?
Our childminder got a Staffie at short notice, We had similar concerns but came to the conclusion that if we trusted the CM to look after our child, we trusted them to look after a dog properly and it was all fine.
Just to reinforce my view, the sheer self entitled arrogance of them inflicting their dog on a bunch of kids deserves you giving them the boot.
Genaeralist +1. I too hold apostrophies in higher esteem than dogs!
I want an office dog that just wanders around the site and in and out of meetings as it chooses.
mine does that. he's called frank. he's a pretty fearful boy but is a working lab so looks quite tough and has a big bark. could be intimidating and i take that in to account when he reacts to people - mainly men, especially is wearing caps.
for the poster that remarked above that dogs seem to have more rights than people (or similar) i'd say don't be so ****ing stupid. in no world does a responsible dog owner want a problem between their dogs and humans. it's only going one way and that's a death sentence for the dog. the number of people who've let their children come up to my dogs in the bar at my local without even for a moment considering that my dog may not appreciate the attention is staggering. even little ones still rocking nappies. i'm confident that my dog does not pose a threat but it would at least be nice to be asked and my dogs are not an educational toy. fundamentally though he has a mouth full of teeth and they're at child height.
as to the OP's position i'm on the 'find out where we are first' side, and i'd add a side order of look around for other options. it's the CM's business and they can run it as they see fit. it's the OP's kids and he's free to take his custom elsewhere.
for the poster that remarked above that dogs seem to have more rights than people (or similar) i’d say don’t be so **** stupid.
Holds up hand and didn't expect anyone to take that comment seriously. However, I totally agree with you that folk should ask before letting their children pet them and this is something that I drummed into my kids when young. Nevertheless there's far too many folk who're treating their dog as a cuddly toy/furbaby/entertainment value and believe that attitudes need to change.
As cougar says, unless you are planning to abolish them, isn’t it better to be able to tolerate them rather than living in fear of something you are likely to meet every day?
No-one is living in fear - you've just made that up. Cockroaches are part of the human environment but no-one suggests kids should hang out with them (apart from toxoplasmosis-mindbent cockroach fans).
it’s the CM’s business and they can run it as they see fit.
No, actually they can't, they should be Ofsted registered and inspected. Having a dog needs to be notified to Ofsted and risk assessments done with appropriate safeguards put in place. If that means the dog doesn't come into contact with the kids I could understand it, if the dog is allowed to freely mingle with them I love to see how they are managing the associated risks. This is a buisness where H & S legislation applies and safeguarding is a requirement. This isn't the same as dropping your kids off with a family friend for the odd day.
Just a reminder what dogs can do.
No-one is living in fear
That's not true judging by the way people cross the street when I walk down the road with mine or when I see kids literally run away when she trots past at least 10m away totally ignoring them. Not blaming them and they have obviously had bad experiences but many people do seem to be very afraid if dogs.
Just a reminder what illegal dogs can do
arrested on suspicion of owning a banned breed of dog
Bit of a step up from a BC
I want an office dog that just wanders around the site and in and out of meetings as it chooses.
Lola comes in sometimes. I asked absolutely everyone before bringing her in the first time. She is widely loved and goes wandering off to get head claps. She doesn't jump or anything. And she gets taken home if she gets restless..it would stop immediately if someone had an issue (I ask all new starts etc before) or if she developed any anti social behaviour.
@jonm81 Its an interesting and emotive point (based on skim reading some of the comments above). I spoke with our former child minders who I remain in contact with socially. They considered it a risky move by the CM. You and other parents are a customer and the question needs to be asked if they considered the impact of having a new pet on their customers i.e. what if a child they mind has an allergy? They should, from a business perspective have raised this with their clients first.
OFSTED - have they updated their R/A? OFSTED take a very dim view on this and it will hit their rating which again hits their market. Did they could manage the risk? Again, going back to the allergy point (my kids do have severe allergies), did they check with clients if the children had allergies?
Conclusion: It is completely their decision to get a dog. It is completely your decision to remain with them. From personal experience I know how difficult it is to get a good child minder and you are now in the position of trying to find a new Minder on short notice which I know creates a whole world of stress. The CM has alienated a potential customer base through either ignorance or error and this could prove costly for them i.e. losing at short notice a chunk of income in a cost of living crisis.
this could prove costly for them i.e. losing at short notice a chunk of income in a cost of living crisis.
There has been some rather strange aspects of the child minder's decision to get a pet dog discussed here.
Including now whether it is appropriate given the cost of living crises and the potential effect on the child minder's financial situation.
Whatever discussion the OP has with her I strongly suggest that child minder's personal financial situation is left out of it.
Have any of you actually tried to get a child minder lately.
Maybe your area is different to the norm but right now the childminder could probably fill the spots tomorrow if they lived here.especially offering wrap around care alone
They probably know this so are willing to take the risk as they want a dog for their family.
Not saying it's right but they probably have considered many of the arguements put forward here which are mostly centres around them jeopardising their finances.
I have asked the questions yesterday and am awaiting answers.
In terms of asking if it’s a dick move; either they knew they were going to get it but didn’t inform anyone until the day after we paid Junes fees and haven’t bothered sending out any information, risk assessments, etc with the notification or they have bought it on a whim and haven’t considered any of the above. Either of the above options constitutes a dick move in my view.
Yes, all you can do for now then make you mind up whether the set-up is ok or not.
Yes.
fwiw, I have had been bitten on the leg by a border collie on a farm. And a pet border collie did go for me once, but decided to sink it teeth into my front tyre instead once I stopped to fend it off. In both cases it's got to be the owners at fault, as the farm one had no-one around and the border collies were in a big pack and the pet one was a young dog with owners in their 80s who were out of sight. So on the basis that rubbish owners exist, I am wary of border collies and similar dogs.
I have had cats since 1999, grown up with dogs and we acquired a dog in July last year.
Unless there is a specific allergy, I would not think there would be an issue if the new dog and children were not allowed to mix.
With any animal we have had, I have always supervised children around them and ensured that if needed - they have been kept separate.
That includes our own, the children of friends and my young nephew.
I would be very surprised and disappointed if they were allowed around each other.
people cross the street when I walk down the road with mine or when I see kids literally run away when she trots past
🤔
Allergies is a good point and one I hadn't considered. Even if they're kept separate during sessions, the kids will be in an area which usually contains dogs and that could present an issue.
It sounds unlikely - it probably is - but it's possible. A former work colleague and friend of mine who pops round for a brew occasionally is allergic to our cats. I keep them away from him as much is practical in an open-plan house and he dopes up on antihistamines before he visits, and he still leaves with red eyes and his face streaming.
Though, on the basis of previous comments I'd have thought that would be part of a risk assessment? I'm assuming she's a Registered Childminder by profession and not just Doris down the road who looks after them for a bit?
A discussion is obviously needed between the OP and their childminder, but I'd view the situation as out-sourcing dog ownership, just as you have out-sourced child day care 😉 . FWIW, we waited until our youngest son was 3 before acquiring a dog, as we deemed that was the age when the child would understand that a dog is not a play thing/toy. We've never left a dog alone with a young child either. I'm always happy for children to pet Henry and our previous dogs, but they have to ask first. We have also had spaniels rather than BC's - BC's having been highly strung and somewhat challenging in my past experience.
To the OP, you'll have a dog within a year, and be looking for a dog minder next. Get a cocker spaniel 😉
To the OP, you’ll have a dog within a year, and be looking for a dog minder next.
This
Get a cocker spaniel 😉
Not this. Fabulous dogs, batshit crazy.
Maybe your area is different to the norm but right now the childminder could probably fill the spots tomorrow if they lived here.especially offering wrap around care alone
Sod the childminding. I could WFH from her house, and have 8 hour a day on demand access to a puppy that I can then walk away from when it pisses on the floor and cries all night. First dibs if there is a space coming up, when all these parents stage a mass exodus.
Allergies is a good point and one I hadn’t considered.
Have you considered that being in contact with dogs at a very young age helps to stop children develop serious allergies? I posted a link on the first page of this thread.
From the link I posted:
Researchers have found having a dog, and preferably two, can protect a child against developing allergies.
Youngsters in households with dogs, from three months old, were 90% less likely to develop food intolerances.
And they were also less likely to become asthmatic.
While having a cat in the house with children might also be beneficial to protect against food allergies, they could cause wheezing.
Obviously any allergy which a child might suffer from is a serious issue but I would expect the child minder to have been informed anyway. A dog doesn't have to be physically present to trigger an allergy in someone.
Have you considered that being in contact with dogs at a very young age helps to stop children develop serious allergies? I posted a link on the first page of this thread.
As far as I understand, it may help reduce the likelihood of a child developing various different allergies. If the child is already allergic to dogs it will most likely make them worse.
As someone who has been allergic to dogs and cats my entire life, I'd be pissed off if the CM suddenly said, 'By the way, we have a dog now.'
Even if my children weren't allergic, I doubt I'd be able to keep them in an environment like that all day and not be sniffing/streaming/sneezing all evening once they came home. Not without some thorough decontamination as soon as they were in the door.
Basically, if you're a CM, don't just inform your customers after you've gotten a dog. Give people time to make other arrangements.
So no, the OP is not being unreasonable.
NYANBUA
Childminders perogative but i hope they gave you enough time to make alternative arrangements.
Not one single person (ok maybe one or two) keeps dogs around kids in the honest belief that the dog is going to bite the child.
Every single dog that bites a child for whatever reason, has "never done that before"... until it did.
If its a puppy, it risks not being in control of its limits, and some fingers are likely to get nipped, even if its just in play
If its an adult, its big enough to do some damage if it takes a dislike to your or any other kids, and may have a limited tolerance to being wound up by having too many kids up in its face.
A friendly lollopy family collie who has lived in the environment for years is one thing.
a new dog in a new place is another
I wouldnt be comfortable myself, unless the childminder had made a clear effort to risk assess and risk control.
Holds up hand and didn’t expect anyone to take that comment seriously.
thanks and no worries on my side 🙂
Just curious, is anyone here a CM, or their respective other halfs? Although no longer, my missus was a CM, and as a house we had to do all sorts to please Ofsted and others, however one thing they were all clear about is that they do not care about the house or what is in it (except food allergies). The only thing that ever seemed to bother Ofsted was ticking boxes for safeguarding, mentally and from abuse and that you followed early years learning programmes properly. Dogs, cats , bears , knives easily accessible - couldn't care less..
@ernielynch you are right, we don't know what the cm financial situation is and I didn't implying anything about their situation. My point stands that making a decision that affects your business and income without first testing the market is silly.
If you consider I have implied anything, that's your perogative.
Well you have implied that making a decision that affects her business and income without first testing the market is silly.
I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion without even talking to her. Perhaps losing a few clients isn't important to her, perhaps the income it generates isn't vital, perhaps she feels that owning a dog which she can take on walks will enrich her life sufficiently to make a drop in income worthwhile.
Who knows? What I do know is that aspect of the situation is of no relevance to the OP. It is the child minder's personal and private life.
I do have sympathy for the OP if they have been dropped in it due to lack of advanced warning, but all the other stuff is irrelevant IMHO.
I don't know but I suspect that there is the possibility that it didn't even occur to the child minder that getting a dog would cause issues for some parents.
I guess the way round the problem might be to come to some agreement whereby the dog is kept separate from the OP's children short term until alternative arrangements can be worked out. That would be sensible imo.
We need an update.....
Just to close this out; the dog will not be kept completely separate for the children and we did not get assurance around how they would deal with/manage our children's fear when the dog was mixing with the children. Having my children sat scared in what is meant to be a mentally and physically safe environment for however long it takes until/if they ever become comfortable around dogs is not acceptable to us.
We have removed the children from the setting and they will be going to after school club instead which has just extended its opening times making it a viable alternative. This comes with the benefit of saving us £160 per month too.
I will continue to work with the kids introducing them to calm, known dogs in a slow and controlled manner to minimise their fear of dogs as much as possible.
It's your choice and your decision, and undoubtedly you know your kids and have their best interests at heart.
Personally, as the parent of nearly grown up kids now, and all (and i can't stress this enough) -> IMHO <- I think you are missing an opportunity here.
And also IMHO, and my last piece of free advice, worth what you paid for it...... I know the desire is to protect but that can go too far. Part of parenting is not wrapping them in cotton wool and letting them get into uncomfortable, sometimes even slightly scary situations. Resilience and independence will be of great use in their futures.
No answer needed, not looking for an argument, just my 2p
You're not being unreasonable if you ask what the arrangement is going to be when your kids are there. You're not being unreasonable if you kindly decline their services going forward and find a new childminder if the arrangements are not to your liking - it is the CM who is making an unwanted change.
@OP glad you have a positive outcome. You know what is best for your kids and FWIW I think the childminder introducing this into what is effectively her workplace, without consultation (or risk assessment) with her customers is very poor.
No answer needed, not looking for an argument, just my 2p
Well, you're going to get an answer anyway. You sound like someone who has never seen a child with a proper dog phobia.
I'm talking seeing a 2 year old freeze in their tracks while their whole body shakes (sounds like a contradiction but I'm sure you can picture it), not even crying but making a tiny whimpering sound with a look of absolute terror on their face.
If you had you wouldn't be suggesting leaving kids with such a phobia with a CM who appears to have bought a dog on a whim. It's the kind of thing that takes very careful planning and lots of effort to overcome.
You made the correct decision OP - what on earth was the CM thinking, I'd have far more sympathy for the CM if they had discussed it with the parents of the children beforehand.
We have removed the children from the setting and they will be going to after school club instead which has just extended its opening times making it a viable alternative
I'm interested in why you used the word "setting"
Do you write menus for flowery restaurants in your spare time?
Sounds like a good outcome BTW. And IMHO you weren't being unreasonable.
BruceWee - that pretty much describes my eldest. She will force herself to touch a dog if it is laying absolutely still (think very elderly dogs that barely move) so she doesn't get picked on by other kids but when she has done that previously we've had nightmares and even found her sitting on her bed shaking and whimpering like that hours afterwards. Any dog that bounces around energetically forget it, she's rigid with fear.
The thing about phobias is they are not rational so just telling her it'll be fine, stand still and tuck her hands in doesn't make a jot of difference to her. There is no reasoning, it is sheer terror.
That is our starting point that we are working from in introducing her to dogs.
As I said we are doing it very slowly in a very controlled way.
I’m interested in why you used the word “setting”
Because that is what it is. It may be their house but to us it is the childcare setting in terms of the regulations and contract. Plus, being on a school standards board with an imminent OFSTED inspection looming we are having all the correct terms and safeguarding procedures reinforced in preparation. Childcare setting, educational setting, safe space, etc, etc.......
It also attempts to remove the emotional connotations from the discussion; whilst it may be their home it is also a regulated workplace which has to be suitable for the mental and physical safeguarding of all the children in attendance.
I am not saying it is dangerous, it is just now unsuitable for the needs of our child and after discussion in our view the risk profile is now too high for us to continue sending our children there.
I understand your decision and the CM's response is disappointing.
But might there have been merit in at least taking the kid to see it? Like, rather than a binary [carry on using the service | vote with your feet] decision, maybe just pop round for a couple of minutes? Go "it's over there, look!" and then leave, rather than a first step being leaving her there for the day?
that pretty much describes my eldest. She will force herself to touch a dog if it is laying absolutely still (think very elderly dogs that barely move) so she doesn’t get picked on by other kids but when she has done that previously we’ve had nightmares and even found her sitting on her bed shaking and whimpering like that hours afterwards. Any dog that bounces around energetically forget it, she’s rigid with fear.
If that's the level your eldest is at then sounds like the right decision. Even though exposure therapy is part of overcoming phobias, I understand why you need to do it in a more controlled setting than you feel you have here. Even if puppies are brilliant and generally "non-threatening" even if they are a bit bouncy.....
Does the 4 year old have to miss out on the experience because the 8yo has a phobia. Could the 4yo try and see what happens....maybe even their enthusiasm will create enthusiasm in the elder one?
(yeh, logistics, etc. - but another parental learning, forget organisational excellence, planning go to hell, etc. If they have to be in two places at once for their own good, find a way to do it)
I like that idea @cougar. In fact I think it could be enhanced by trying to find a childminder with the right type/size/age of dog. It would just mean visiting a few and saying "show me your puppies".
It would just mean visiting a few and saying “show me your puppies”.
😂