[Closed] child benefit..

we had a letter recently saying household income over 26k makes you ineligible for CTC.

Well I never, Ernie has got his hands on the Cycle Touring Club.

If its your only household income then you do not have childcare costs unless you are a single parent

That wouldn't be quite true for us TJ. I'd like to send our daughter to nursery for say 1 day a week at some point, but my wife would be the main carer and possibly jobless. That's a choice though, like many things. Lucinda may have to give up her pony 😯

If its your only household income then you do not have childcare costs unless you are a single parent

Only if said stay at home parent sits in an unheated house with their child all day and doesn't go anywhere / do anything with them. Childcare costs even if you DIY.

I consider myself/wife as average possibly below average to be fair at a combined basic work income before tax of £40k-£42k a year.

Sorry to break it to you, but that income puts you into TJs "wealthiest in the country" category. no doubt he'll be happy to explain to you why it is laughable that you consider yourself anything but filthy rich.

earning £42000+ puts you in the top 10% of earners and therefore amongst the wealthiest in the country

You seem to have missed this so let me repeat it:
No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't.
No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't.
No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. No it doesn't.

As pointed out at length earlier you have to clear 40k AFTER TAX to be in the top 10% of earners.
And if your 42k is the only household income then your household is BELOW the national average and only a bit above median.

If its your only household income then you do not have childcare costs unless you are a single parent

Phew. Lucky there are none of them then eh?
Or anyone whose partner can't work / look after kids due to illness or disability.
Or anyone whose partner does voluntary work.

Personal circumstances vary. Which is why the sweeping absolutes that you are so fond of don't hold up.

you are still back to comparing individuals with households

Yep. Cos that is what the new Child Benefit rules will do and that's why it is unfair.

anyone any idea what % it is the case that one higher tax earner is worse off than two non

For same income (e.g. 50k versus 2x25k) the single income will always be worst off after tax.
Plus the double incomes will get more benefits.

God no not in the 40% tax band. I consider myself/wife as average possibly below average to be fair at a combined basic work income before tax of £40k-£42k a year.

£40-£42k a year is our joint/combined pre tax income.

With a family of 3 children. No company cars. Work 8 miles away and 15 miles away respectively (me on shiftwork), fuel/car running costs a fair bit of our budget. Plus all the other factors of raising a family, paying our way.

Yep bigbloke, so your household income is more than a house with a single 42k income - placing you well and truly on TJ's rich list.

Renting flats in a cheaper areas and working shift work opposite to your partner - which saves the two main costs you complain of is simply rejected out of hand.

How on earth can you do that when you both work in professional services - a civil engineer and company director. I'm not sure my clients would appreciate me scheduling everything from 5pm-midnight so that it fits in.
TJ not everyone works shifts, its amazing you know there is actually a world outside your small edinburgh triangle. Most of the examples given on here are normal people living normal lives, earning respectable incomes but finding that the balance of costs vs income make certain elements hard to balance. Your dismissal of this as being due to their lifestyle choice shows you up as the narcissistic bufoon that I suspect you wish to be. Yoru life is not representative of the world, people have babies, people have normal 9-5 jobs that they are clinging onto by the skin of their teeth with no pensions and no salary uplift in years while the cost of living increases. Your arguments are, frankly, rude and disrepectful. I'll stop there. We know that when we have kids there is no way both of us can work - we have no family here (a lifestyle choice - well no, they're dead) and childcare will exceed the income so why bother. We won't qualify for any state help as we are in a high tax bracket. We will struggle through. I might have sell the 911 though 🙄

Yep bigbloke, so your household income is more than a house with a single 42k income - placing you well and truly on TJ's rich list

In that case please call me Sir Bigbloke in future when you address me...

One advantage for the self-employed is the ability to spread income across the tax-year, and tax-years and/or increase pension contributions or just leave it in the business for a rainy day.

And as we are both self-employed it does mean that whatever numbers the government comes up with I just work out where its best for us - consequently ensuring we both stay (just) below the 'band', minimise tax/NI and take whatever benefits we are eligible for.

Right so this might be useful to the discussion.

[b]The Institute of Fiscal Studies "Where Do You Fit In" test:[/b]
http://www.ifs.org.uk/wheredoyoufitin/

Whack in your net income and see where you stand.

Funnily enough it turns out that Mrs 42k that I described earlier (£31048 take home, 3 young kids) is pretty close to the national median at 54%

So much for "top 10%" and "amongst the wealthiest in the country". 🙄

Laughable. 😉

Let's be honest about this, having kids is not a lifestyle choice for most people.

Living in an expensive postcode area rather the one next door, owning a car that does less than 20 miles to gallon, having ski holidays, riding mountain bikes are lifestyle choices.

Most people having kids is driven biologically and the basis on which our society operates. AS pointed out above someone has to pay for TJ's unfunded pension.

Living away from your parents, both working the same shift patterns (be it days or whatever else) are not lifestyle choices, they are the results of the way the labour market is.

Basically I'm sick of having to justify my income, we work hard for what we bring home and have picked ourselves up and got on with life after many set backs without state help (6 redundancies between us so far).

Should we get child benefit, no on our joint income it's not justifiable, but to have it taken away in one hit with the background cost of living rising, having lost CTC's a last year, moving jobs (redundancy) has been difficult and the pain is compounded by the lazy self serving way this is being propsed.

There's a bit of me quite glad to see the back of child benefit, at least we'll know where we stand and won't be losing any other benefits so CMD can score cheap political points.

tj - do you think that people earning around or above £42k need a reality check?

i was brought up in a one parent family during the 70s in the West of Scotland, done my apprenticeship in the early eighties,got involved with motrbike clubs / gangs and all the associated "business" - mates knifed, shot, kidnapped etc. I then effed off in the late eighties - done a bit of travelling then ended up in London. Worked on construction sites 7 days a week, living in shitty bedsits, used to do 120 hour weeks on lane rental jobs, moved all over the country gradually improving my position as i learned the ropes. got into a supervisory role.
Now in a lowish managerial position, and earning a decent living, my Mrs also works in construction - neither of us can work shifts. a i mentioned in a previous post - it boils my piss when the only 2 non tax payers in our street went to Feurta ventura 4 times last year - disability cars, taxis to pubs etc.
Don't preach and assume you are the only person to have sufferd hardship, and earning a decent wage means you don't know the ropes or haven't struggled in life. I have seen a lot of bad things in my time and would probably be in prison or be dead if i hadn't taken a decision to get the eff out of Paisley when i did. Don't be sutch an judgmental eejit 🙄

Childcare is expensive , but when that child turns 3yr old, the government will pay for 15hrs per week childcare regardless of the parents income.

Then if you are genuinely on a low income then tax credits will pay 70 per cent towards the remaining costs.

If someone is earning 42k per year and says they are not well off then I would happily swap with them for a week, they will soon see how easy they have it!
Some people just don't live in the real world.

Childcare is expensive , but when that child turns 3yr old, the government will pay for 15hrs per week childcare regardless of the parents income.

Which is welcome, but leaves a bit of a gap for the other 30hrs odd of childcare required to hold down a full time job.

If someone is earning 42k per year and says they are not well off then I would happily swap with them for a week, they will soon see how easy they have it!

You're not automatically rich just because someone else exists that is worse off than you.

You may not be automatically rich, but that doesn't stop them sounding like a whining spoilt brat 😉

Well, as per my example, someone on £42k can be pretty much bang on the average (median) household income in the UK.

That may well be more than you, but it doesn't make them well off, rich or spoilt.

They might be whiny though. I'll give you that.

Let's be honest about this, having kids is not a lifestyle choice for most people.

contraception is (freely) available so it is a lifestyle choice. Just because you feel pressure to have kids because of "society"* doesn't mean you don't have free will to choose not to.

Otherwise, being on here and owning a 29er singlespeed would not be your choice as you are expected to do it because of the norms of society.

People need to take responsibility for their decisions and the consequences they have. Blaming it on "society" and then asking "society" to help is not the answer. ["there is no such thing as society" ;)]

A fine sentiment jonba, but without kids "society" would quickly become very poor indeed. Society needs kids, hence why it helps.

I don't think child benefit should exist at all now that child tax credit exists.
I think the CTC should be adjusted according to income and that would solve the issue of those receiving child benefit who dont need it and just put it in a savings account.

But that would be far too simple for the government and tax credits are so messed up , overpayed and underpayed, that is probably why they haven't done this yet.

I just spent a marvelous evening at the theatre (Hayfever, at the Coward, in case you were wondering).

You chaps appear to still be going round in the same circles.

Do you ever stop and think, "It's just a rather obscure bike forum. Why on earth am I [s]wasting [/s] spending so much time on pointless arguments in which no one will ever achieve anything?

Why not do something else for a change?

Why not do something else for a change?

Why not do something else for a change?

I'm still working. These 42k+ jobs don't do themselves you know. 😀

I'm now disappointed to find I'm only in the top 20% and not one of the Elite, thanks GrahamS you've ruined my day.

CFH, it's ironic really in the very true meaning of the word. Your one of the member that makes the most posts.

thanks GrahamS you've ruined my day.

Sorry 'bout that. On the bright side you live in a beautiful part of the country that is (bizarrely) much cheaper to live in than the dirty depressing cities. So your relative wealth goes a lot further. 😀

I work shifts too so I guess I'm almost perfect.

Jealousy really innit. Plan and simple.

Someone who lives in a one bed flat in Scotland thinks they would be well off if they earned 42k, because if they did they would have shed loads of disposable income and that is their measure of wealth. But they don't have that disposable income.

So they put 2 and 2 together and get 5. So instead of being jealous of people with that level of disposable income they are jealous of people who earn what the Scottish 1 bedroomer would need to earn to get that level of disposable income. Ignoring the fact that the link between earnings and wealth is a tenuous one at best.

So its pointless arguing really as jealousy is not a logical emotion and therefore it cannot be defeated with a logical argument.

So its pointless arguing really as j[s]ealousy is not a logical emotion and therefore it[/s] [b]TJ[/b] cannot be defeated with a logical argument.

FTFY. 😉

GrahamS - Member
So its pointless arguing really as jealousy is not a logical emotion and therefore it TJ cannot be defeated with a logical argument.
FTFY.

WORD.

I haven't read this since page two and am sadly not surprised that the argument is still lumbering on.

How on earth can you do that when you both work in professional services - a civil engineer and company director. I'm not sure my clients would appreciate me scheduling everything from 5pm-midnight so that it fits in.
TJ not everyone works shifts, its amazing you know there is actually a world outside your small edinburgh triangle. Most of the examples given on here are normal people living normal lives, earning respectable incomes but finding that the balance of costs vs income make certain elements hard to balance. Your dismissal of this as being due to their lifestyle choice shows you up as the narcissistic bufoon that I suspect you wish to be. Yoru life is not representative of the world, people have babies, people have normal 9-5 jobs that they are clinging onto by the skin of their teeth with no pensions and no salary uplift in years while the cost of living increases. Your arguments are, frankly, rude and disrepectful. I'll stop there. We know that when we have kids there is no way both of us can work - we have no family here (a lifestyle choice - well no, they're dead) and childcare will exceed the income so why bother. We won't qualify for any state help as we are in a high tax bracket. We will struggle through. I might have sell the 911 though

One of the best posts on the thread???

Ooooh....

[img] [/img]

Free-hunnert!

I struggle with long sentences.

Has anyone mentioned that Princess Diana used to collect Child Benefit for her kids? She used to show up at Victoria Post Office once a week to collect it. Now there was a sponger. Weirdly, the Daily Mirror didn't have space to reprint their expose in the months after she died.

Just wondering... at what income point does collecting the benefits that you are entitled to become sponging?

GrahamS - When you are wealthy, obviously.

at what income point does collecting the benefits that you are entitled to become sponging?

someone please put the troll out of his misery. I've seen Troll Hunter - you just need some UV lights mounted on a Landy 😉

Did she really go and queue at the Post Office once a week with all the plebs?
I can't really imagine her being stuck for an hour between a pensioner paying her TV license in 2p coins and a junkie collecting his giro.

Surely she had online banking... 😉

at what income point does collecting the benefits that you are entitled to become sponging?

I reckon that point would be reached if you could get to the end of 2 months before realising that the previous month's giro wasn't paid in as expected

Surely how well off someone is, is a relative argument... as someone stated above, if I lived in a 1 bed flat, no dependants, is a cheapish city, then £42k a year would mean I'd probably be rather comfortable.

However, if you have to live in London (for work reasons, or otherwise), and have to put a roof over your family's head then £42k a year obviously isn't going to stretch that far. Not that I live in London, but I don't think rent is very cheap for a 2/3 bedroom house within commuting distance.

My partner and I could happily live without child benefit - however, it is nice to have a perk (even a small one) from the system after we've contributed so much to it over the years. If the government decide to take it away, so be it.

What makes me angry though, is all the BS from the goverment about austerity etc. and then having to watch Panorama 'Money Farmers' the other night, and watch how the (properly) well-off are legally scamming our system for millions a year and the government have no intention to tighten that loop-hole.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01d94rm/Panorama_The_Money_Farmers/ ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01d94rm/Panorama_The_Money_Farmers/[/url]

Still not seen much on this website about the changes to WTC or CTC limits. I do remember a massive bunfight about the 26k benefits cap vaguely. I guess it would be better if the cap for CB was on household income rather than hr taxpayers, but then everyone would need to fill in the huge CTC style form. £42k cap does seem fair to me tbh.

Maybe, to mirror the 26k benefit cap, there should be an max income limit on ALL benefit entitlement?

i.e. household income greater than X then you can't claim any benefits for anything.

then everyone would need to fill in the huge CTC style form.

Won't a fairly large portion of the remaining people claiming Child Benefit be claiming CTC anyway so why not just roll them together (as someone suggested much earlier)?

Love the misrepresentation of what I say - and FYI prezet if that refers to me Edinburgh is not a cheap place to live.

Its simple and true - if you earn £42000 plus yo are one of the wealthiest people in the country - top 10% or so.

To bleat you can hardly manage because of the high costs you have misses the point completely. You still have the high income. You have merely chosen to have high costs.

TJ - It was not meant as a reference to you. I imagine Edinburgh isn't cheap, but doubt it's as expensive as London.

You have merely chosen to have high costs.

Some people don't have a choice. They simply have to go where the work is. Not everything in life is as black and white as you like to make out.

And no doubt, you're comfortably in the top 10% wealthiest people in the world TJ. You shouldn't complain if your pension's cut then, should you 🙂

Things aren't always so black and white even if your point is fundamentally right.

Prezet - even in the south east accommodation can be found that is easily affordable on £42 000 pa