[Closed] Changing Man.... the more I see the less I understand

Because the Socialists let all the foreigners in during Tonys glory years and then they pinched all the good jobs so now the nasty Tories will help us get rid of em then we'll all go back to voting labour.

That's what I hear on site and roundabout on a regular basis.

Thought it was going to be a Paul Weller thread..

Politics..count me out..

You love it...

so why does he sound like Roger Chapman?

but I got fed up  and left UK 12 years ago never intending to return.

But I did come back 2 years ago, and so far am really disappointed with things, high rents, low wages, and the way the government jumps in and does things without regard for facts, or public's wishes

the whole US and TheM thing

I am 53, from a working class background in South Wales and totally agree with you, oldmanmtb.

It beggars believe that Wales as a whole voted for Brexit, especially as many ex-mining and steel-making areas have benefitted a lot from EU funding.

The media played a major role in swinging the vote by publishing outrageous headlines knowing that many people don't read the actual articles or research the topics.

I despair for my children. Like you I believe my children are in a better place than I was but it really makes me sad that so much will be denied them as a result of Brexit.

This government is despicable, uncaring, out of touch and generally a bunch of rich, self-serving ****s who are hell bent on destroying any notion of community and the greater good. It's all about "I'm alright, Jack. **** you".

What the **** happened…. why did working class people vote for Brexit and let these truly horrible self centred people take control and today in parliament

Becuse they all beleived a couple of lying self promoting personal political ideologies to improve their own careers.

So, is that fault of education or just stupidity?

You decide.

Blame those who regularly vote Tory and stop mixing them up with those who voted Brexit.

At the heart of society is blinkered greed, be it from the ruling classes or the working classes. People only think what’s good for them rather than society as a whole, all the while the majority thinks like this then the status quo will remain.

socialism/unions were a way to make the working mans life better but that just ended up with a petulant power struggle between workers and the state and those in power sought ways to shift the control back away from the working man/woman to where we are today with stagnant wage growth, zero hours contracts and erosion of workers rights and low productivity.

its easy to blame 'foreigners' when you have little grasp of how politics works and get your news from the state controlled media and Facebook.

People need to look at the bigger picture instead of their own little narcissism bubble of dreaming about winning Britain’s got talent/strictly and wanting a Towie tan.

I am 54, from a working class background in South England and I've never known the country to be any different.

socialism/unions were a way to make the working mans life better

Yeah, well, my personal experience of being a member of a union with one of the highest member’s subs in the country involved them shrugging their shoulders when I was threatened with redundancy and a half-hearted offer of maybe, possibly, finding a job for me too far away for me to be able to travel to at the time.

I have a very jaundiced view of unions, I’ve never joined one since then; that was around 1975-6.

I follow most of these threads with mild amusement. I have lived in the NE all my life. My first memory was the fire brigade coming to my house to put out a fire in our  chimney. My mum put a tyre on the fire to keep warm. She had run out of coal and had ran out of furniture to chop up. The miners were on strike and the power station workers were on strike. People were freezing to death literally. If you think for one minute that there is any difference between labour Lib Dem or Tory you’re deluded. We are taken for granted by Labour as a safe seat and forgotten by the Tory’s as a lost cause. We are ran by a privately educated political elite which ever side of the house they are on.

What dezb and inbred said, nothings changed, its maybe a bit more open or black and white now. The greed at the top elite will do anything to stay there, the ones that worship and aspire to them will do anything to get there

I’ve been angry for 2 years.

Then I dug my crass albums out. Every time I see someone with a moustache I sing one of their tunes to myself.

It helps.

NSFW.

I'm the first member of my family in four generations never to have voted Tory, make of that what you will.

Whatever is required to be the new opiate of the masses, to keep us blind and unquestioning.

I am constantly surprised by the absolute ignorance of my fellow naked apes

The sooner I don't exist the happier I'll be (well as long as its not too painful)

Ever consider that the voting system may not be the honest and independent system it used to be?

It's been privatised. Unless there's a huge real swing, it only takes small bits of leverage (ie dead men voting) to keep the balance exactly where its owners want it.

Beware the postal vote...

The less direct the cause and effect the easier it is to loose sight of it. I believe that has what has happened here. The benefits are indirect for many but the perceived negatives are immediate.

I am 54, from a working class background in South England and I’ve never known the country to be any different

I am 50 and would agree.  I was 11 when Thatcher got in and became politically aware around that time.  Many arguments with my dad who voted for thatcher as he was working class through.  He liked working and hated union interference but didn't see or understand the bigger picture of the impacts of thatcher.  The fact we are living in a more selfish country with people thinking immigrants are taken 'their' jobs is a direct result of what thatcher started.

Then I dug my crass albums out

Quite appropriate - wasn't it a Crass slogan: "Whoever you vote for the government wins" ?

Stuck with me that one.

I come from a working class background in Liverpool, left Liverpool in the late 80s and joined the army, been fortunate enough to have travelled a lot and seen a lot worse countries than our own. I presume Oldmanmtb is forgetting about the 1970's, the James Callaghan or Harold Wilson governments? The Winter of Discontent? The 3 day week and the oil crisis introduced by the Tory's to attempt to limit electricity usage? You still think the current Tory government are the worst government you can remember? Following the 70's the 80's started pretty bad, a recession in 1981 leading to the riots throughout the country, minors strike etc. How about the Blair years? Its Blair who opened my eyes to politics, seeing such an open display of personal greed and egotism. I went from a Labour voter to a Tory voter due to Blair.

But agree totally with Inbred, the politicians are all the same whatever party they represent. I'd say that nothing has changed, its just a similar cycle repeating itself. I do also think that the country voting for Brexit was a knee jerk reaction due to the previous governments, seeing Cameron and Blair, middle to upper class people not doing much for the country. I think the people wanted to take some control, this was fed to them by the media.

Grew up in the North East as well and was the first of my family to have the opportunity to go to University etc etc. I was going to say, I think we have the most incompetent PM and Government I can remember but I was probably just a bit too young to properly remember the early Thatcher years or labour rule before that.

What I will say is that I think we are currently witnessing an all-time low in the quality of MP's. Whether it's their ability to actually speak in sentences rather than pre-programmed sound-bites, their conviction in what they vote for, their complete and utter contempt for certain sections of our communities, their flagrant self-promotion or ability to coherently challenge the other side, it is utterly depressing. Witness PMQs as a prime example. Of course, there are exceptions but generally, they are an absolute ****ing shower.

why did working class people vote for Brexit

Because they're a bunch of stupid ill-informed sheep.

And, apparently in many instances,  proud to be so...

I am 46 years old, I come from a miserable piss poor working class back ground. Living in the shadow of Ravenscraig steelworks,  I really witnessed Thatchers destruction first hand.

Whilst all of this was happening, our Labour MP, a Cambridge / Harvard graduate from Bath who I was never aware of having actually  ever visited the constituency in his 23 year tenure, sat idly by and did nothing. Back then, you could have pinned a red rosette on a monkey and it would have romped to victory.

By contrast, I met my current SNP MP the other day whilst I was out walking the dog. She lives right across the road from my mother-in-law and was a community councillor and a local councillor before being elected.

She might be equally as ineffectual but at least she's in the same boat as the rest of us when the shit goes down.

It's all shit but has been as long as I can remember, regardless of which party is in power. Even politicians that want to bring about long-term social change couldn't as you're not elected for long enough to do it (not guaranteed anyway) and as the first few years would mostly be about taking rather than giving you'd be unlikely to be re-elected.

Would be interesting to see Corbyn having a chance but he'd need a massive majority and no interference from the House of Lords, both of which are unlikely.

I'm 63 and from a Lancashire working class background and I agree with oldmanmtb.  The country is going down the tubes.  I'd love to see the back of this hateful government and the swivel-eyed loonies on the Tory back benches who appear to really be in charge. However, I don't trust Corbyn and McDonald.  I think they are old fashioned Marxists.  Corbyn is typical of a privately educated, upper middle class 'socialist' who has never had to get his hands dirty and hasn't a clue about what it's like to look for a job.  Most of his front bench team don't exactly inspire confidence, either.

While I never voted for Labour under Blair, and I share @failedengineer's opinion of the current Labour front bench… but all the "it doesn't matter who is in government" line is bollox. From the moment we once again had a Conservative only government (and then, even worse, a DUP propped up Conservative government), this country started moving, at speed, towards something that makes me feel very uncomfortable.

A Government is only as good as its opposition. Deary me, we are properly knackered.

It beggars believe that Wales as a whole voted for Brexit, especially as many ex-mining and steel-making areas have benefitted a lot from EU funding.

To me this is the saddest part/greatest irony of the whole debacle.

What I will say is that I think we are currently witnessing an all-time low in the quality of MP’s.

I couldn't agree more!

Back then, you could have pinned a red rosette on a monkey and it would have romped to victory.

I live in part of St. Helens. I can assure that this way of thinking is very much alive round here. Our MP is shit and one of our local councillors is so amazingly obnoxious with his constituents on social media is beggars belief. But hey, Labour is the party of the working class.*

*like bollocks it is.

I'm authentic northern working class scum, grew up under Thatcher where my journey to school took me past the pits she was busy closing down. I now live in Lancashire surrounded by a load of towns beginning with B, which contain massively deprived areas where people live in genuine poverty. I'm presently working in Manchester City Centre where every doorway seems to have a homeless person sleeping in it.

To everyone who says that 'they're all the same'. have a look around at those places and just imagine what they'd look like if the Tory's hadn't had their Thatcherite/Austerity agenda interrupted for 13 years. I truly dread to think! They'd be post-apocalyptic wastelands!

We had 13 years where the labour party actually put some money into the infrastructure of these communities by financing schools and hospitals. You can argue about the wisdom of PFI etc, but at least Blair and Brown gave a shit about places outside London and the South Was! These lot don't, and never did! They literally couldn't give a shit! Remember Thatchers 'Managed Decline? They don't even pretend to that any more. They'll happily totallly starve us of funds and leave us to rot!

I *ing loath the tories with every fibre of my being. And this lot are the most hateful yet! Utter *s, the lot of them!!!

The state of the Labour party at the moment - an incompetent, totally ineffectual, incoherent, unelectable shambles - is too depressing for words

I don't think anyone would argue that Blair's governments were as bad as this lot with regard to investing in education and healthcare.  However, they had more in common with the LibDems and 'left wing' Tories than Labour, in my opinion.  Is that a bad thing?  Who knows. One thing for sure though, a full-on right wing Tory government (supported by the DUP) will never look after the interests of working class people.  They won't even help industry towards some sort of revival which would produce skilled, well paid working class jobs again.  They are are bunch of first class ****.

 Politics..count me out..

Herein lies the problem. You "don't do politics" , but politics does you.

We are simply in this mess due to a lack of interest/attention from the citizens of this country. Its why they were easily swayed by the media when it came to brexit, its why we have very low quality politicians we have in Parliament.

But don't think its only this country when it comes to that other quality people seem to possess, stupidity. Look at the US and relatives in Canada are have seen the worst possible candidate for the Ontario elections win.

So if like me you have hoped this country would get better but seen it get worse, its time for you to do politics. And not just on the internet.

I think whilst MP's are allowed to have an outside interest in private companies (Chris Grayling, Hunt et al) then you're never going have impartial MP's putting the countries needs first.  Once retired, how many MP's go on to be non-exec directors of large corporations and therefore how many had deals set up prior to their departure?

Claydon in Suffolk has recently seen the building of a large Chinese owned 'Power station' where they burn nasty shit to 'create electricity'.  They've built this shit burning monstrosity next to a new estate, about half a mile from a primary and high school.  However, as it turns out, the Chinese consortium who own said facility 'ran out of funds' to put in the important bit that actually creates the electric so now Claydon has a commercial incinerator positioned walking distance from schools filled with children and estates where they all live.  The planning for this was granted by Mid Suffolk CC.  There was uproar about the fact that the fumes out of said shit furnace are pretty bad and it turns out they're burning some pretty nasty stuff.  Under pressure Mid Suffolk put a stop to it, and instead reopened the local refuse site (conveniently less than a mile down the road) to bury commercial waste that was deemed too horrible to be burnt.  The refuse site sits in the flood plain for the Gipping river, which runs through Claydon and eventually Ipswich.  Google who sits on Mid Suffolk CC board and then Google his business interests....

The whole lot makes me sick to the back teeth.  We need an uprising, sadly the best we'll get is war.  Bojo, May and the rest of the shit weasels should be lined up in my opinion.  The illusion that 'ethnics' are stealing our jobs is a charade pushed to us to stop us thinking about what is really going on.

Maybe you could argue its the ageing of the population? The older people get, the more they "benefit" from keeping things the same.

I'd rather have a young political leader bollxing things up whilst trying to "improve" things rather than the current front bench coffin dodgers who are hell bent on not upsetting the grey vote and recreating a past that never existed or a political system that didn't "work very well" several times in the past.

I'm all for reducing the voting age for men to 21 and giving property owning women the vote. That'll shake things up.

Herein lies the problem. You “don’t do politics” , but politics does you

Er... maybe he just doesn't like discussing it on the forum, where it actually achieves nothing.

It beggars believe that Wales as a whole voted for Brexit

Not really, politicians from all parties and the whole press (Tabloid to Sunday Times) have been consistently blaming Europe for all our ills for the last 30 years. Then we have a referendum where they were told they can have all the benefits,but  without immigrants and an extra £350m/week for the NHS, if they vote leave.

Unsurprisingly, leave won.

 Er… maybe he just doesn’t like discussing it on the forum, where it actually achieves nothing.

Pointless comment really. But considering the source it comes from...

Well well, you know me eh? Absolutely no idea who you are.

Why were the public ever allowed to vote on Brexit when 95% don't understand the actual implications of staying/ leaving?  How can this actually happen in this day and age, and how can Tory voters continue to vote Tory after such a ridiculous occurrence?

(Note I consider myself to be part of the ignorant 95%)

While I never voted for Labour under Blair, and I share @failedengineer’s opinion of the current Labour front bench… but all the “it doesn’t matter who is in government” line is bollox. From the moment we once again had a Conservative only government (and then, even worse, a DUP propped up Conservative government), this country started moving, at speed, towards something that makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Hear, hear! It still upsets me to hear people badmouth the LibDems on the basis of their Tuition Fees failure. I can only imagine that their presence in government saved us from innumerable ills.

It was all about the “great tory infighting minority” and obvz those that fear most shout loudest.

And then the whaling daily promoted “immigrants are bad, let’s save £350m” as spouted by LyingBloHard and his cronies, and those racist amongst the great unwashed dribbled down thier shirts and managed to pick up a pen long enough to scrawl an x in a box.

You voted em’ in, and you voted in the referendum so live with the consequences like the rest of the population.

You had the power of both voting and persuasion like the rest of us.

It’s been like this since 1066. We had our opportunities to put all thosde entitled heads on pikes and we missed most of them. Brexit is the stupidest thing since the Restoration but we’ve long since rolled over and let them take what they want from us. It’s over.

Why were the public ever allowed to vote on Brexit when 95% don’t understand the actual implications of staying/ leaving?

Because CallMeDave and his sidekick Gideon Powerstance thought it would be a great wheeze to get their pesky, bothersome backbench Europhobic  Xenophobes all clustered around Bill Cash, to SHUT THE FK UP!

Well played, the Bullingdon.

I think whilst MP’s are allowed to have an outside interest in private companies (Chris Grayling, Hunt et al) then you’re never going have impartial MP’s putting the countries needs first.  Once retired, how many MP’s go on to be non-exec directors of large corporations and therefore how many had deals set up prior to their departure?

This, and large donations to parties. The country would be in a much better state if we paid MPs more (unpopular I know, but that's why their votes are up for sale) and completely banned having any potential conflicts of interest for life.

It won't happen, because we all get tribal, and there certainly aren't enough good MPs to back it. The lack of interest in politics is more a lack of enthusiasm for any sort of redemption of the system - but it won't get better without people taking an interest in it. I understand why people voted for Brexit (even though they were wrong) and I don't think they were stupid, just fed up and misled.

Blair's Labour party privatised things that even Maggie would've left alone. The only people that gain anything from that are shareholders, and the shareholders are not generally the working classes.

Why were the public ever allowed to vote on Brexit when 95% don’t understand the actual implications of staying/ leaving?  How can this actually happen in this day and age, and how can Tory voters continue to vote Tory after such a ridiculous occurrence?

(Note I consider myself to be part of the ignorant 95%)

It's not 95%, nobody knew (or knows) what we will end up with. We weren't even voting for a proposed exit stance - just "leaving the EU" which means **** all except not getting a democratic input into the "undemocratic" EU without some context of what agreements we may stay in and get out of.

I do wonder what kind of world i brought my daughter into. I think the Blair Labour of old at least seemed to bring positivity, "New Labour" where basically straight down the middle, but seemingly at least had the country's best interest at heart (and i was one of the soldiers that went to play in the sand...)

I agree with a lot of above, but my main gripe is that there is no consequences for these Tory politicians, they can do and say what they like and if they get it badly wrong, simply walk away on to the board of some FTSE 100 company, look at Cameron, he got this whole shitstorm ball rolling, the minute it didn't go as planned, he simply walked away. You've got BoJo who the month before the referendum was lecturing us on Remaining, then as soon as he saw a path he could go down for personal gain, switches to Leave.

It just seems they are all in it for personal gain and screw the man in the street.

I'm from the south coast, but have lived in York and Leeds, lived abroad and now reside in Norfolk, what is hilarious here is that every farmer voted leave, "too many EU guidelines controlling our farming", then they all ask, where their subsidies have gone and why all the fruit and asparagus and other still labour intensive picking methods has their produce rotting in the fields as they cannot get Eastern European labour to pick it!

Because CallMeDave and his sidekick Gideon Powerstance thought it would be a great wheeze to get their pesky, bothersome backbench Europhobic  Xenophobes all clustered around Bill Cash, to SHUT THE FK UP!

fortunately for all those farmers it looks like gove is going to keep subsidies going.

Blame those who regularly vote Tory and stop mixing them up with those who voted Brexit.

i'm afraid you are complicit in the ongoing mess that surrounds us. whatever you may like to think, that vote counted towards this, irrespective of what the sentiment was behind it.

I watched the comings and goings of the Tory conference from the library steps. They seemed terrified of the local population. Not one went into the City Arms, all of 200yds away but they did make a queue at a '''gentleman's' club in town. Waiters in the Midland hotel reported ''do' you know who I am' comments. They genuinely seemed even more despicable than I imagined, quite some achievement. They are very much removed from Joe Public and they are therefore happy to screw over people on behalf of international capital so that when they leave office, like Gideon, they can pick up £600k p.a. from a US merchant bank for one day a week's ''work'. Although I have not much faith in the parliamentary system, they are not all the same and I look forward to Corbyn having a go at it.

I still can't get my head round why Labour and the Lib Dems aren't exploiting this situation. You have a minority government that is full of infighting and is propped up by a minor party with some seriously unpalatable views. Brexit is turning into a disaster and there are a swath of other issues on our own shores too. You'd have thought this'd be the perfect time to be the opposition, lots of opportunity to further your cause and some gaping holes in the government.

But no, you have a turgid Lib Dems who appear largely policy free bar the second Brexit referendum and a Labour party who have no clear Brexit position and feel to a large portion of the populous completely un-electable.

As little as 15 years ago we had Blair and Brown and Clegg in opposition who, for all the stick they got, would be ripping this government apart.

I don't like what the Tory's are doing right now, but Labour and the Lib-Dems are really helping them do it by being largely incompetent.

And because of this, I feel like a political refugee with no real home, Lib-Dems I guess is the logical place but by God do they need some substance behind them.

If you feel like a political refugee whos views are totally unrepresented by mainstream U.K. politics then join the club. There are bloody millions of us!

I’m watching on in impotent horror, a government that can’t govern and an opposition who refuse to oppose!

democracy in this country has never been in a more sorry state!

There are loads of us aren't there. The Conservatives are far too far right, Labour are waaaaay left and we're stuck in the middle as both of those sides make loads of noise and little sense. As I write that i think "well hang on, what about the Lib-Dems?", and, well, where the heck are they? They should be the answer to my political desires (liberal, centre, pro-Brexit) but they're just not really here are they?

Left, Right and Centre are just words used as labels.  Centre doesn't mean it is the best for everyone.

Does make me laugh when people see Corbyn as waaaaay left though.  Shows the impact of what the media get up to I suppose.

Becuse they all beleived a couple of lying self promoting personal political ideologies to improve their own careers.

So, is that fault of education or just stupidity?

You decide.

Unfortunately it's very much this. I remember being pretty much staggered by the brexit vote, not one of my friends was a leave, and my entire Facebook feed was overrun with remain posts. After the vote I thought about why that was.

Basically the people I tend to know are reasonably educated  Liberal individuals, who had the intelligence to see through the lies.

It's a generalisation of course,  but I imagine the lower your intelligence or education level, the more likely you were to vote 'leave'. Not all leave voters are stupid, but I'm willing to bet overall they aren't as educated as remainders.

Despite of course it impacting them more than anyone else..

anyone fancy a pint?

 Labour are waaaaay left

Which Labour policies are 'way left'?

Left, Right and Centre are just words used as labels.  Centre doesn’t mean it is the best for everyone.

I'm aware of that, and Brexit makes it even more complicated. But right now Labour are left and The Tory's are right, and what's left is a gaping hole in the middle where I think I and a lot of others sit.

Does make me laugh when people see Corbyn as waaaaay left though.  Shows the impact of what the media get up to I suppose.

Depends on what you compare him too. He is compared to Labour party leaders of recent years, and also when compared to UK politics over the last 30 years overall. I guess he's not waaaaaay left compared to some of the party in the 70's but he's always been on that side of the debate and the party in general.

He's not 'waaaay left'.

Constant repitition of this  just gives the Tories more ammunition.

If you don't like his policies, leave the party and vote Liberal.

He represents the traditional values of the Labour Party, unlike Blair or his hangers on.

He’s not ‘waaay left’ in any shape or form.

It’s a big, fat lie and if you genuinely believe it then you’re the problem.

Sorry, but he is if you compare him to recent UK politics which is the sphere we are currently operating in. I completely get that in some contexts he is not that far left at all, but those aren't overly relevant to the state of UK politics at the moment.

And I am no fool, I read policy documents and manifestos before I vote and actually vote for the ones I like rather than just voting Labour/Tory/whoever as that's who I've always voted for, this means I've voted on occasion for every major party in the last 20 years. But if that makes me part of the problem then so be it, but I am very open to be "fixed".

He represents the traditional values of the Labour Party, unlike Blair or his hangers on.

I don't give a stuff about these, and I suggest neither does a large part of the electorate. Blair had his faults, but his policies were a lot closer to what I would like then those from either side of the fence at the moment. Hell, at least he had conviction, May would have been out of government long ago with him at the helm, that she isn't is a massive black mark against Corbyn.

I think the opposition is happy for May or her replacement to be in power when the car crash of Brexit happens and it will certainly do for a lot of people who voted for it. Whether that drives them left or right is another question.

You simply can't rely on political parties or figures to make the world a better place

El-bent ..I never said that " I didn't do politics "

DezB ..got it absolutely spot on ..

I have opinions which I prefer to keep to myself and use my vote too..but I just find threads like this one , the Brexit thread and Donald Trump ..a complete waste of space ..has anyone  managed to change someones opinion?

I can honestly say that I've not looked at the subject matter on either Brexit or Trump , May or Corbyn ...never mind contribute towards it..and that's the way it will stay .

But I will still use my vote where & when necessary.

Sorry, but he is if you compare him to recent UK politics which is the sphere we are currently operating in.

Recent (post 79) UK politics has been a race rightward.

Anyone could be demonised as  'way left' compared to that.

Blair had his faults, but his policies were a lot closer to what I would like then those from either side of the fence at the moment.

Blair's policies were basically Tory Lite.

So you have a choice of the right wing of the Liberal Party or the left of the Tory party.

Surely one of those would be to your taste?

. Hell, at least he had conviction

Convictions overuling all the evidence is what gave us the Iraq war.

So you have a choice of the right wing of the Liberal Party or the left of the Tory party.

But that's the point, I don't have that choice do I? The Tory party are heading right and Labour are heading left, maybe not as far left as the party of the 70's but left of the most successful leader of the party in 30 years and left of where they have been since the late 80's. So I stand here in the middle with both parties heading away from me, and I am adamant I am not alone in this feeling. So maybe "Tory Lite" or "Labour Lite" is what I want, a party that takes some of the good bits of the other party and mixes them with their own work. But what I certainly don't want is "hard Tory" or "hard Labour", which is what we have on the table.

 I still can’t get my head round why Labour and the Lib Dems aren’t exploiting this situation. You have a minority government that is full of infighting and is propped up by a minor party with some seriously unpalatable views. Brexit is turning into a disaster and there are a swath of other issues on our own shores too. You’d have thought this’d be the perfect time to be the opposition, lots of opportunity to further your cause and some gaping holes in the government.

The libdems can be ignored, which the media is pretty much doing.

When it comes to brexit which pretty much exposes the divisions and problems in society, there are different people wanting different things:

The hard brexiters want to "take back control", while off shoring their investment funds to remain in the EU,

The anti-immigrant brigade, they really need to have this behaviour knocked out of them,

Then we come to Maybot, Wanting to keep her party together? Yes, but the prize is to leave the ECHR jurisdiction,

And Corbyn, who won't obstruct Brexit as its a means to an end, getting rid of the evil capitalist EU so when he comes to power he can implement the socialist utopia. Doesn't sound too bad, unfortunately getting rid of capitalism is Marxism, not socialism. Corbyn and militan...I mean momentum won't see power.

 has anyone  managed to change someones opinion?

Probably not, it has more use finding like minded people though. I'm sure some people will call that an echo chamber.

 I can honestly say that I’ve not looked at the subject matter on either Brexit or Trump , May or Corbyn …never mind contribute towards it..and that’s the way it will stay .

So once every few years you turn up to vote and don't think anything really beyond that. You don't do politics then.

Is it any wonder this country is run by idiots then?

And Corbyn, who won’t obstruct Brexit as its a means to an end, getting rid of the evil capitalist EU so when he comes to power he can implement the socialist utopia. Doesn’t sound too bad, unfortunately getting rid of capitalism is Marxism, not socialism.

I must've missed all that in their manifesto.

Their manifesto at the last general election was pretty good (easily far better than the Conservative and LibDem efforts) but the people now running the Labour Party have made it clear for decades what their aims are… which is why they are not trusted, despite the awful record of the utter non-government that they are the opposition to.

El-bent ..

You have a real aptitude for quoting shite that exists in your own mind ..

Perhaps it escaped your attention when I said that I have opinions which I will keep to myself .

Come to think of it ..you are brilliant at distorting the truth ..ever thought of becoming an MP yourself ..you would fit right in ..

Their manifesto at the last general election was pretty good (easily far better than the Conservative and LibDem efforts) but the people now running the Labour Party have made it clear for decades what their aims are…

So you're saying that the manifesto does not represent the aims of the leadership?

I'd try taking more water with it.

So you’re saying that the manifesto does not represent the aims of the leadership?

Yes.

But that’s the point, I don’t have that choice do I?

Yes, yes you do. Join the LibDems.

It's not just Corbyn himself who's a known quantity. It's everyone around him.

The reason the Tory party are carrying on like they are, with total disdain for the non-gammon electorate is that they know full well that this country will never in a million years vote to put John Mcdonnell into number 11, with Len Mcklusky popping in every day for a chat, with Dianne Abbot as the Home Office. Hey... maybe everyone deserves a second chance, and we could bring Ken Livingstone back as foreign secretary?

Its never going to happen! Ever! No matter how much of a hash they make of things. So they know that they can do what the hell they like as the country has no realistic alternative. And Jezza has made it clear that he's going nowhere. Hence the extreme lunatic Brexit nutters now wagging the Tory dog. They have never been faced with an opportunity like this in their wildest dreams! And they're taking full advantage!

And it wouldn't matter anyway, because if we had the hard left instead of the hard right, then the Brexit situation, which is the only game in town, would be heading in exactly the same direction because they want the same thing. Just for different reasons.

Our entire political system has been hijacked by nutters on either end of the political scale who both want to deliver the same outcome, just by slightly different means.... Economic Armageddon

I've said this and i'll say it again, somebody that has always voted tory will never ever vote for another party no matter how or what they did. It's embedded so deep into them they dare not ever place a tick in the other box.

Seems to me some on here want the Labour party (second largest share of the votes) to bend to their whims and become their conduit for opposing Brexit, as the Lib Dems have little to no power!

Speaking from my own experience. I think some people in this country underestimate how hardline significant groups of the population are. Their real views, are far less liberal, further right and draconian than even the current Tories. Poles apart from the views shouted from the roof tops on the internet!

Their real views, are far less liberal, further right and draconian than even the current Tories.

True enough. They get very upset if you point it out to them though.

Binners is flowing with astute political insight today. All good stuff. I can't disagree with much, or perhaps any, of it.

vote for the green party, and get good debates on your electric vehicles