[Closed] Changes to MOT, would this put you off buying a diesel?

<p>Depends, do you intend on maintaining the anti-pollution systems or just ignoring them then removing them when they inevitably break down as most seem to?</p>

I'll be putting our 2009 Golf (Diesel) through its MOT before 20th May just in case. This car has been great. 150,000 miles and going strong but I wouldn't buy another diesel because of the emissions but more so the fact that they will be priced/regulated off the roads if things carry on like this.  We're hoping to run the old Golf until EV's are a real viable option for a normal family.  When's that cheap Tesla landing in the UK?

I think the future will be tough for diesel owners in the next 5 years. They'll be the first type of fuel to be banned in city centres etc as electric vehicles become more viable (especially service vehicles)

"Depends, do you intend on maintaining the anti-pollution systems or just ignoring them then removing them when they inevitably break down as most seem to?"

MOT is also clamping down on that, any sign it's been tampered with is an automatic fail

There’s lots of other things that would put me off buying diesel waaaaaay before I got to MOT regulations. I wouldn’t touch one with a barge pole tbh.

I wouldn't throw any kind of money at a diesel - all signs are pointing to pricing/legislating them off the road, and quickly.

Crazy to think just a few years ago they were being promoted as the economical choice eh.

Sorry, all this diesel clampdown is all my fault. The first diesel I got immediately preceeded the clampdown.

To compensate you all, I'll put my winter tyres and mudguards on all my bikes. That should pretty much guarantee a lovely warm and dry spring.

Great news - all the horrible filth belching taxis will be off the streets in the next couple of years! Or maybe the taxi firms will all get their MOT's done by the local tame testers who will pass them with flying colours.

It's certainly a consideration.

It seems the knives are out for diesels at the moment and the more I learn about it, the more I'm inclined to see why.

I still have some holes in my knowledge, but as I understand it (please someone correct me if I'm wrong) the industry has been trying to make diesels cleaner for years and they have the diesels of 20 years ago poured soot from the exhaust

The last generation used DPF and the equally troublesome EGR to try to clean them up which I think greatly reduced the Co2 which is what we were taxed on in the UK, but had limited effect on Nox which is a really nasty thing to have coming out of the box you take your kids about in, but hey - we don't pay VED or BIK on Nox so who cares right? Well, everyone now.

Euro6 cars (true ones anyway) use Adblue which I *believe* does away with the DPF and EGR, this is the bit I'm not totally clear on so two things less to worry about?

I personally wouldn't rush to buy a non-Euro6 diesel, partly because we've been a bit blind to Nox in Britain and it's nasty stuff and partly because I think there's a huge amount of risk involved. At the moment Non-Euro4 cars/van are going to be banned from some cities, as sure as night follows day, euro4 cars will be next and no doubt euro5.

Euro6 cars produce no more Nox than equivalent Petrol cars, or so they say.

<p>Easy enough to knock the guts out a DPF or blank an EGR without leaving clues.</p>

I doubt it’ll have much effect, the new “guidelines” on the MOT.

There are too many vehicles older than say 5yrs that suffer with some blue smoke coming out of the exhaust, that new rule would take 70% off the road.. no chance.

bikebouy - my understanding are these are not guidelines, but the new standards.  All the details are on the gov.uk website. From 20th May all MOT test equipment will be updated with the new levels

but yes, i agree it does seem like a lot of fairly new cars will be failing, not sure how that will play with the public - wasn't that long ago we were all being led to buying diesel

really like the way modern diesels drive, feels like the manufactures have pumped loads of cash into developing ever more powerful and refined engines, and petrol has lagged behind somewhat

Anyway,

Diesel or Petrol, the answer is 'both'.

http://www2.mazda.com/en/next-generation/technology/

Very clever and competes with EVs on 'well to wheel' Co2 (based on current infrastructure)

Well with new diesel registrations down by 17% last year it’s encouraging to know that..

CO2 emissions from the average new car sold in the UK rose last year for the first time since 2000, according to an industry report, raising fears that the country will fail to meet its climate change targets as consumers buy bigger vehicles and turn against diesel.

Although motor manufacturers said new models coming on to the market were on average about 12% more fuel-efficient than their older versions, campaigners said a higher proportion of gas-guzzling vehicles leaving the forecourt had led to a 0.8% increase in the average amount of C02 generated per new car.

Falling consumer confidence has affected the lower end of the car market, with sales of the smallest, cheapest vehicle down by more than 10%.

So, just passing over from one nasty gas to another ..

If you're on top of servicing and pay attention to emissions gear then it shouldn't be an issue?

The best maintenance for any diesel is to be taken out every couple of weeks and driven in a spirited fashion (keeping the boost gauge high) for twenty minutes or so to trigger the DPF's regen mode.  EGR valves are a consumable part, but if the DPF is clogged then they'll soot up.

<p>EGR valves are NOT consumables, I swapped mine to quickly get it through it's MOT but the old one should clean up easily enough. So long as you catch it in good time or do preventative maintenance in the first place there's no reason why a valve shouldn't last the lifetime of the vehicle.</p><p></p><p>Agree on Italian tuneup where appropriate, if you have Eolys or such the DPF constantly regens.</p>

Mostly wrong pjay.

Egr has been around for a long time Euro 4 at least.

Then DPF to clean up particulates.

Then add SCR with urea to clean up NOx.

my current one has just failed on emissions

Is it a diesel?  Smoking?  Might be something like a MAF or boost pressure sensor - not too hard to fix.

Egr has been around for a long time Euro 4 at least.

Then DPF to clean up particulates.

Then add SCR with urea to clean up NOx.

Don't think he is wrong.  EGR is to lower combustion temperatures (along with changing injection timing afaik) which reduces NOx but also increases smoke.  The smoke then has to be filtered with a DPF.  I think that if you use AdBlue to remove the NOx you then don't need EGR an you can run hotter to increase efficiency and burn the smoke better.

So, do AdBlue equipped cars not have a DPF?  If they do they probably don't use them as much.

So, how hard is an engine swap to a petrol on a Galaxy?

<p>Probably hard enough that you would be cheaper just buying one with a petrol engine.</p>

do AdBlue equipped cars not have a DPF?

That's the bit I couldn't find info on - using google anyway - a lot of hits for "Adblue v DPF" which backed up my idea that you didn't need both, but I'm not sure where I got that idea in the first place.

<p>Dunno about Adblue but Eolys is used to lower the combustion temperature of the soot so it gets burnt off through general use, there is still a DPF in place to act as a filter but it's a passive rather than active system.</p>

Useful info ta - having a 2010 SMax that needed a bit of coaxing last year (OK, the tester told me to thrash it up and down the M3 for half an hour before bringing it in) - it's next ticket is due on Jun 8th. Do i get a calendar month or 28 days before hand? Will be booking it in early this year........

With AdBlue (assume Eloys is similar) there's a catalyst that reacts with the ammonia and the NOx to produce nitrogen and water:

2NO + 2NH3 + ½O2 -> 2N2 + 3H2O

3NO2 + 4NH3 + 3O2-> 7/2N2 + 6H20

Yes

Staggered that a 7yo car may be at its end of life. Makes you realise how countries like Framce which only test every two years have it much more easily

@ply hard to see how they could ban all diesels - my wifes 11yo micra has same emissions rating as a new 2tdi Euro 6 (using French “CritAir” stickers)

What happened to running Diesels on chip fat?

Seriously, why did this never take off? is there an actual reason or is it just because fuel companies don't like it?

Also are there any retro fit things that can improve the emissions of Diesel cars, like a 2008 SMax....

Among the changes will be one that if the “exhaust on a vehicle fitted with a diesel particulate filter emits visible smoke of any colour” the car will be issued a Major fault.

Does that mean that my 20 year old Toyota camper which I'm pretty sure has no filter, is exempt from this?

What happened to running Diesels on chip fat?

Couple of issues - it's harder to get it to work without risks in a modern engine, but the real reason is that as soon as the government made fuel manufacturers put 5% biodiesel in their diesel, used chip fat suddenly had value.  So instead of restaurants paying to have it taken away, they sold it to people who refined it and sold it on to fuel manufacturers.  So you couldn't pick it up for free any more.

McDonalds now use all their used chip fat in their own fleet - according to the slogans on the lorries that is.

I'm also keen to know that BillOddie.  My 2008 Golf has plenty of life left in it and is one of the last models without a DPF.  I'm hoping that means this means it falls outside of this change.

“exhaust on a vehicle fitted with a diesel particulate filter emits visible smoke of any colour”

Is this a "visual" check by the MOT tester?

If so thats open to so much interpretation to make it nul and void a requirement..

One mans Blue is another mans Black..

@ Molgrips, that's kind of what I thought. If it was made freely available or some other variant, rather than used chip fat, would the world be a better place? And would I get more miles out of a chip fat diesel than an electric car and still be able to carry loads of camping gear and bikes???

They won't have tens of thousands of cars suddenly irredeemably fail an MOT now will they?  That would cause chaos.

If it was made freely available or some other variant, rather than used chip fat, would the world be a better place?

Free fuel?

All fuel has a cost - even used chip fat takes energy and other materials to refine.  Lots of possible sources of biofuel take a different toll on the environment.

As for camping trips - someone will be along with an electric range extended van soon enough.

The MOT testers will know that older cars don't have DPFs, so they won't be looking for signs of "interference".   They will still check that the emissions are within limits. Assuming that you have a 1999 Pug 405 then the emissions should be in line with the govt max levels and the levels associated with that individual engine.

If they really want to clean the air in cities they should look at buses, coaches and trucks.

Also shipping is notoriously bad. The stat is something like the 10 biggest container ships in the world pollute more than all the cars, motorbikes, vans, trucks and buses in the entire world. Depressing.

Londons ULEZ looks to change or toughen up the rules about pollutants from vehicles in the city, and the scope has been widened out to include "inside the M25" and "inside the North and South Circular" zones..(the T-Zone)

Khan has changed and brought forward some of the original changes proposed to make it more stringent a regime. And Busses/Trucks/Taxis are included within that new scope (to what extent I don't know).

Hybrids are no longer exempt, they are charged the ULED like everyone else, and when ULEZ comes in PHEV's will be charged.. too it'll be only Pure Electric vehicles that are exempt.

And 2019 isn't that far away now..

Free fuel?

No, no I just mean a readily available fuel source similar to chip fat that doesn't produce the bad shit that diesel does. It seems like we had an answer years ago but chose not to use it. I just wonder why exactly. There must be a reason other wise why would be pissing about with electric?

The Adblu v EGR was a truck thing.

To meet Euro 4 and 5, where the big clamp down was NOx, the limits could be met with either EGR, or Adblu. EGR worked by lowering combustion temperatures, resulting in a bit more smoke, and the use of an oxidising catalyst. It also increased fuel consumption due to the lower combustion efficiency, and needing more cooling due to the EGR cooler. Adblu allowed combustion temperatures to remain at their optimum, and the SCR and Adblu handled the NOx.
Nearly all truck manufacturers opted for AdBlu on fuel economy grounds, as the cost was quickly offset by fuel savings. IIRC it was around 4-5%, so even after you factored in the ongoing cost of the SCR system, it was the cheaper overall system.

Cars/light vehicles always opted for EGR, as it was a cheaper option to implement, and the reduced fuel consumption was mitigated by improving fuel injection.

For Euro 6, all technologies are needed. EGR helps control combustion temperatures to keep them in their optimum range, an oxidisation cat helps reduce soot before it hits the DPF (they're usually combined into one unit)then the SCR system handles NOx.

In terms of reliability, provided you're doing reasonable length journeys regularly, chances are you won't have any major problems. The system takes care of itself, it's only when you do endless short journeys and ignore warnings, that you're likely to have clogging problems. Modern DPF systems will regenerate in under 15 minutes from cold, provided the vehicle is being driven and not just stuck in traffic, but even in traffic they can normally maintain a regen.

PSA engines with the Eolys system, don't continually regen. The Eolys is a chemical that dopes the fuel tank, that makes regens quicker (IIRC it makes the soot easier to burn off, so regens don't have to be as hot).

Also shipping is notoriously bad. The stat is something like the 10 biggest container ships in the world pollute more than all the cars, motorbikes, vans, trucks and buses in the entire world. Depressing.

What sort of pollution? Greenhouse gases, or poisons like NOx? If the latter, then it's lucky they don't hang around inner city schools. If greenhouse gases, then that's a problem, but it's worth remembering that the reason air travel is so polluting is because the pollution is in a place where it is much more harmful, rather than the absolute quantity.

Ships can run on different grades of fuel and will use one (more refined, less polluting) type in e.g. the Channel, then switch to the crude stuff when through the Western Approaches. If they are caught using the crude stuff in the Channel they get fined.

<span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">No, no I just mean a readily available fuel source similar to chip fat that doesn’t produce the bad shit that diesel does. It seems like we had an answer years ago but chose not to use it. I just wonder why exactly. There must be a reason other wise why would be pissing about with electric?</span>

Er, it still produces the "bad shit". At the end of the day you're still burning oil, producing CO2, NOx and particulates.

Adding biodiesel to conventional diesel was primarily a move to reduce reliance on fossil fuels, not really anything to do with pollution concerns. However it was found the biodiesel helped with the lubricity problems caused by the removal of sulphur, but did introduce some problems as in high pressure systems it can breakdown causing sludge problems (certain trucks were notorious for it).
The EU stopped their plans to gradually increase the minimum require biodiesel requirement, as it was having too big an effect on food production.

No, no I just mean a readily available fuel source similar to chip fat that doesn’t produce the bad shit that diesel does. It seems like we had an answer years ago but chose not to use it.

What did we have years ago?  Are you referring to chip fat?  Cos there was never anywhere near enough of that compared to diesel!  And we do use it all afaik for fuel.  It's mixed with our regular diesel.

Yeah, just wondered why we didn't go more for the biofuels, not necessarily used chip fat but proper stuff manufactured to replace diesel but it seem mc answered me with some science.

Yeah, just wondered why we didn’t go more for the biofuels, not necessarily used chip fat but proper stuff manufactured to replace diesel but it seem mc answered me with some science.

For a while we were growing Rapeseed for Oil and mixing it into normal crude based diesel, but I think it was causing some problems with some fuel pumps - for a little while you'd see warning on the inside of caps on cars with words like "no more than 5% bio fuel" or the like and warnings on pumps if you knew where to look, I'm not sure it still goes on.

Anyway, since then cooking oil in supermarkets anyway has jumped to about the same price per litre at diesel and I once read that if we wanted to replace all our current diesel with bio diesel there's not enough extra agricultural land to produce it all globally.

Equally, supposedly there's not enough lithium globally to replace all cars with EV nor enough electricity production to charge them all.

There's no way to refine hydrogen efficiently enough to replace all cars with Fuel Cells, nor again enough power stations to refine the hydrogen.

mc beat me to the explanation (and gave a better one than I could be bothered to give).

The SCR vs EGR thing was way back (you could achieve Euro 4 or 5 NOx levels with either strategy).

I run hot vibration durability and fatigue tests of (mostly truck) exhaust systems. Euro 6 definitely has both DPF and SCR. The detail of current EGR may be different to what they did pre-SCR but may still be there to some extent.

Some truck exhaust systems are massive - maybe plus 200kg and the size of a big fuel tank. Some companies called them "EGPs" (Exhaust Gas Processors) because they were essentially mini chemical processing plants.

And going back to the op I wouldn't be bothered about the MOT - a properly maintained and functioning system will pass (working DPF = no smoke). I presume the new laws are to give some teeth to catch the cut out and reweld DPF crew.

What car do you have that is currently struggling to pass the MOT? My (Euro 4 I think) EGR but non-DPF 1.6 HDI with 100,000 miles and 10 years barely registers on the smoke reading.

Probably going to keep hold of it for a few more years to see how everything pans out petrol vs diesel vs electric vs hybrid.