[Closed] Centre lane drivers!

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On a three-lane carriageway, both the second and third lanes are for overtaking. If you're not overtaking (or about to be), then you shouldn't be in them

there's no such thing as an overtaking lane,

both your quotes in the same post Cougar and you have contradicted yourself

What's safer, passing on the left or having to make four lane changes (1 > 2 > 3 > 2 > 1) to go round a paid-up member of the Lane Two Owner's Club?

One justification for middle lane "hogging" - when it's really wet, the middle lane is usually the best drained one - handy for not aquaplaning into the central reservation.

Too many angry and impatient children on this thread. Calm down, chill out, don't die.

both your quotes in the same post Cougar and you have contradicted yourself

Only if you're being pedantic. They're for overtaking, they're not called "overtaking lanes".

The sooner we get away from this conception of 'fast' lanes and 'overtaking' lanes, hopefully the sooner people will stop driving like spoons.

I'd say someone attempting an undertaking manoeuvre is as much of a spoon as the guy sat in the middle lane.

Likewise, if I'm doing the speed limit and using the middle lane to legitimately overtake someone, why should I have to pull into the left lane and brake just because someone wants to go faster than me?

Who says you should. If you are overtaking slower traffic then you are using the outside lanes correctly. Personally if I am overtaking slower traffic and I see someone coming up quickly from behind I either speed up so I clear the lane sooner or wait for the quciker car to pass and then overtake. With good anticipation it shouldn't really be neccesary to brake maybe just coast for a short time (all this assumes the traffic is flowing freely and the motorway is not too busy of course)

According to the Highway Code, it's legal to overtake on the left to pass slower-moving traffic. Some coffin-dodger doing 55mph in the middle lane falls into this category as far as I'm concerned.

Nope.

[u]Do not overtake on the left[/u] or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.
-- [url= http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069862 ]Rule 268, Highway Code[/url]

You can only overtake on the left in a queue. Not just because someone in the middle lane is going a bit slower than you'd like.

Bitching that they are not following the Highway Code and then breaking it yourself makes very little sense.

One justification for middle lane "hogging" - when it's really wet, the middle lane is usually the best drained one - handy for not aquaplaning into the central reservation.

Not in my experience, usually the wagons do a good job of clearing the first lane. Plus any lane that was used the most would be driest, so stick left.

The sooner we get away from this conception of 'fast' lanes and 'overtaking' lanes, hopefully the sooner people will stop driving like spoons.

They are lanes for overtaking. The people driving like spoons are the ones that get in the way when they could be over to the left. If people followed the rules there would be far fewer problems on the road, higher speeds would be acceptably low-risk as things would be more predictable. Instead its a free-for-all and everyone gets caught up. I have been known to "undertake" simply because pulling out into the outside lane would be a danger from inside-lane speeds. Plus it has the tendency to make the daydreaming middle lane hog realise their error and carefully pull in.

Not in my experience, usually the wagons do a good job of clearing the first lane. Plus any lane that was used the most would be driest, so stick left.

Nope - the road's midpoint is slightly raised to help drainage so is drier. Inside lane is often rutted by lorry wheels so more dangerous. Obviously only when it's pretty clear though - when the traffic is "normal" stick to the correct lane.

But there's too much rage and assumption on here.

I would still say passing in the proper lane is safer as if you have a problem with someone not being on the inside lane I am assuming it is because it is empty/quiet (so therefore not a great awareness of what is happening around them) so you are going to undertake him (which is the last thing they are likely to be expecting) and you think that is safer (What if they decide mid undertake to go to the inside lane)?

Who says you should. If you are overtaking slower traffic then you are using the outside lanes correctly.

Yeah, but it goes back to my earlier point: on a 3+ lane motorway I wouldn't pull in to the left lane if I could see I was going to be there for less than ten seconds before I had to pull out again.

That could mean choosing not to pull in, despite a 400 foot gap between cars (assuming a 20mph difference in speeds). Many would consider that to be hogging and would prefer me to pull in and reduce my speed.

Nope - the road's midpoint is slightly raised to help drainage so is drier.

Never noticed that, found my cars always pull to the left on motorways suggesting camber is out to the left. That said, they do have drainage on the central res so it'd be odd if there was not tilted that way. But many times I've driven down rain-soaked motorways to see the water crossing the motorway where the camber has changed from "normal" to banked for a bend. Ruts in the inside lane are not fun, no, but you can hover outside the ruts fairly easily.

I would still say passing in the proper lane is safer as if you have a problem with someone not being on the inside lane I am assuming it is because it is empty/quiet (so therefore not a great awareness of what is happening around them) so you are going to undertake him (which is the last thing they are likely to be expecting) and you think that is safer (What if they decide mid undertake to go to the inside lane)?

I consider undertaking to be educational to the other drivers most people I undertake seem to recognise my efforts with a friendly flash of their lights as I go past. Most of them then actually use the correct lane as well once they have spotted their error!

Buy an MG midget, that way you'll just sit in the slow lane at 60* and everythigns much more relaxing.

*oddly, this seems to be a lot faster than some peoples '60' a friend was following me and though it was doing 75!

sometimes what's perceived as middle lane hogging is actually not, when there's a lorry to overtake about 100 yards in front that's doing 65 and i'm doing 70, but a massive stream of traffic behind that wants to do 75-80, then i will stay in the middle lane becuase if i move over then the chances are I won't be allowed back out again.

But the number one thing that really gets up my goat is cock-ends who overtake while you are still accelerating, it really boils my piss when some knobber decides to do 0-60 in about 6 seconds, roaring past in the process, but then sits at 60. If everyone just stopped accelerating like a maniac then petrol might last a bit longer

But the number one thing that really gets up my goat is cock-ends who overtake while you are still accelerating, it really boils my piss when some knobber decides to do 0-60 in about 6 seconds, roaring past in the process, but then sits at 60. If everyone just stopped accelerating like a maniac then petrol might last a bit longer

In what situation? What's wrong with accelerating faster than you choose to? In a petrol car the most efficient way of accelerating is to do so briskly and then level in speed, it reduces the throttling losses, accelerating at part throttle introduces a pumping loss that isn't required, like a clogged air filter. On a D it's not the same technique. (I'm not talking WOT, just well opened. Too far open and the ECU will enrich for more torque and fuel economy will fall). [url= http://autospeed.com/cms/A_111510/article.html ]FYI[/url] Toddling along with a strangled engine taking a relative age to get up to speed helps no-one, especially not the polar bears.

coffeeking: I thought hard acceleration should be avoided to save fuel?

"Flow with the traffic – avoid hard acceleration and braking"
-- [url= http://www.iam.org.uk/images/stories/downloads/Policy_and_Research/FuelSavingtip.pdf ]Institute Advanced Motorists (Fuel Saving Tips PDF)[/url]

"Studies have shown that darting in and out of traffic, and accelerating hard away during stop-start driving, saves barely any time, uses up more fuel.. try to keep your engine running at its most efficient level – between 2,000 and 3,000 revs"
-- [url= http://www.ford.co.uk/OwnerServices/FuelEconomyandEnvironmentalProtection1/FuelEfficientEcoDrvingTips ]Ford (Fuel Efficient Driving Tips)[/url]

I think the occasional "Keep left unless overtaking" on the VMS signs would sort this out. Seeing as the chances of a human being police officer sorting drivers out is so miniscule.

One justification for middle lane "hogging" - when it's really wet, the middle lane is usually the best drained one - handy for not aquaplaning into the central reservation.

What a crock! I think if you're in the inside lane, you are somewhat further from the central reservation anyway?
That's almost as tenuous as the Middle Lane Hogger I heard on the radio who justified himself by saying "it's dangerous to change lanes" 👿
FFS stick to the A-roads if you really are scared by motorways.

anyone that fails to see that sitting in the middle lane causes problems just needs to drive on the european motorways for about an hour, it's perfectly decking obvious how and why it should be done....just pull the **** over once you are past the vehicle you've just overtook. doesn't hurt you and it let's others go about their business.

I drove from Amsterdam to Calais and it was bliss, people pulled
in after an overtake and those that didn't pulled in as you approached. as soon as we hit the UK it was once again back to sitting behind the idiots.

if the road ahead is clear enough I just undertake the idiots.

Hard acceleration - no, swift acceleration (the point where giving it more throttle doesn't give you noticably more speed), yes. It's hard to explain without diagrams etc and more time.

Your ECU fuels for the incoming air and tries to match it to its mapping. It'll try to keep that fairly lean unless it thinks you're trying to get somewhere in a hurry. It figures you're trying to get somewhere in a hurry if your throttle is at very large openings for the RPM the engine is turning or has been opened at a high rate. While it's beyond most people to spot the difference, it is there and it can be seen if you have the right datalogging kit. My fun car on its stock ECU will fuel at 14.7:1 (its idea of lean cruise, modern cars cruise leaner) even at 3/4 throttle if it is pressed smoothly. Thats enough for my car to do 0-60 in about 6.5 seconds without ever going rich. Do the same run but at full throttle, or after stabbing the throttle down fast, it'll go rich (up to 8:1 😯 ) and throw away your fuel. Theres a fine line, but if you have a good feel for yoru car its easy to drive fast and without wasting fuel. On diesels theres no throttle (generally) so the above doesn't apply, and its easy-on-the-throttle all the time to limit fuel flow. Of course accelerating slowly you do tend over toward the area where the engine can run quite lean and still produce enough power, so there's a trade-off to be had, but as far as I'm aware most cars don't run lean enough at light throttle/accel to negate the throttling losses.

More [url= http://www.mechadyne-int.com/vva-reference/part-load-pumping-losses-si-engine ]FYI[/url]

GrahamS > re: the undertaking rule you've quoted there:

I take your point, I really should check these things before posting but I was short on time over lunch.

However, the emphasis on the quote there is yours; it actually says "do not" rather than "you [b]MUST NOT[/b]", which implies that there's no law enforcing it.

almost as tenuous as the Middle Lane Hogger I heard on the radio who justified himself by saying "it's dangerous to change lanes"
FFS stick to the A-roads if you really are scared by motorways.

So unlike anti-middle-laner Cougar, who posted above that he undertook because changing lanes to overtake middle-laners was less safe?

They are both right of course, changing lanes [i]is[/i] riskier than sitting in the same lane.

Hard acceleration - no, swift acceleration...[i]complicated car stuff[/i]

Gotcha. Interesting and fair enough, cheers ck.

Very interesting.

If you had a drive by wire throttle I presume the ECU and throttle would be programmed to work together to smooth out eratic throttle movements

However, the emphasis on the quote there is yours; it actually says "do not" rather than "you MUST NOT", which implies that there's no law enforcing it.

And you are accusing me of being pedantic

(-: Good point, well made.

However, the emphasis on the quote there is yours; it actually says "do not" rather than "you MUST NOT", which implies that there's no law enforcing it.

I didn't say there was did I? See TJ for that.
Though I believe any contravention of the highway code can be used as evidence of driving without due care and attention.

Very interesting.

If you had a drive by wire throttle I presume the ECU and throttle would be programmed to work together to smooth out eratic throttle movements

Yep, that's why some of the earlier drive by wire systems (try driving a late 90s/early00s punto) feel like there's elastic between your pedal and the throttle. Press, wait a little, here it comes, whoosh, off the throttle, christ its still going please stop...ahhh it stopping! The ECU basically attempts to see what you're wanting to do and does it the most efficient way it can. Sometimes it does it badly 🙂

Though I believe any contravention of the highway code can be used as evidence of driving without due care and attention.

Perhaps, but the same is true of middle-laners in that case.

"[b]138[/b]
On a three-lane dual carriageway, you may use the middle lane or the right-hand lane to overtake but return to the middle and then the left-hand lane when it is safe."

Though in practice, I can't see it being a charge in and of itself for either misdemeanour, unless you were otherwise driving like a tool and it was something else they could add to make a charge stick.

Perhaps, but the same is true of middle-laners in that case.

Indeedly-do neighbour. Hence my bemused consternation at the irony of folk criticising middle-laners for breaking the highway code and then doing exactly the same thing themselves.

Notice also that "when it is safe" is fairly subjective, whereas "do not overtake on the left" doesn't leave much wiggle room.

In what situation? What's wrong with accelerating faster than you choose to?

nothing if you then maintain a faster speed than i was going to do anyway,
but the purpose of overtaking is to travel at a faster constant cruising speed than the vehicle you are overtaking is choosing to cruise at.
While it is still accelerating, you don't yet know at what speed the vehicle is going to cruise at, so to barge in front and then block it is just rude. It's not (necessarily) dangerous, it's just a bit selfish.

In a petrol car the most efficient way of accelerating is to do so briskly

not in terms of fuel consumption. Accelerating fast (ergo, at high revs) uses more fuel than keeping the revs down.

[i]sometimes what's perceived as middle lane hogging is actually not, when there's a lorry to overtake about 100 yards in front that's doing 65 and i'm doing 70, but a massive stream of traffic behind that wants to do 75-80, then i will stay in the middle lane becuase if i move over then the chances are I won't be allowed back out again.[/i]

Quick lorries around you then!

Basically those that drive in any other lane than the left hand lane when there is no reason to be there, are knobs.

(deleted by author)

GrahamS - Member

According to the Highway Code, it's legal to overtake on the left to pass slower-moving traffic. Some coffin-dodger doing 55mph in the middle lane falls into this category as far as I'm concerned.

Nope.

[b]Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake.[/b] In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. [b]Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.[/b]
-- Rule 268, Highway Code

So lets say you're cruising along at 60mph in the inside lane of a three lane NSL motorway and it's reasonably quiet.

You round a bend and up ahead is someone trundling at 50mph in the middle lane.

You check your mirrors and there's some traffic approaching from behind making an overtake difficult.

Do you

a) Stay in the inside lane and undertake even though it's not "congested conditions"

b) Swerve across three lanes to overtake them with traffic approaching from behind

c) slow down and make sure you don't undertake them until traffic behind has clear and you can overtake

Real world answers please, not high and mighty lies.

Personally it's answer A every time.

the Middle Lane Hogger I heard on the radio who justified himself by saying "it's dangerous to change lanes

having to make four lane changes (1 > 2 > 3 > 2 > 1) to go round a paid-up member of the Lane Two Owner's Club?

just shows, the midlane pillocks main motivation is selfishness

Decision is made for you when driving a BMW - I AM IN THE FAST LANE GET OUT OF MY WAY SCUM!

Works for me anyway.

The slow lane is for trucks and poor people.

[IMG] [/IMG]

nothing if you then maintain a faster speed than i was going to do anyway,

Ahh, so they're supposed to use mind-reading techniques to determine what your final speed will be? Based on your slower acceleration I'd say they could reasonably judge that you may end up at a slower terminal speed than them.

but the purpose of overtaking is to travel at a faster constant cruising speed than the vehicle you are overtaking is choosing to cruise at.

Overtaking is to get past a car that you're travelling faster than at the time. I'm not advocating accelerating and then slowing back down, but accelerating to speed and holding that speed is perfectly right.

not in terms of fuel consumption. Accelerating fast (ergo, at high revs) uses more fuel than keeping the revs down.

Yes in terms of fuel consumption, though your comment about "at high revs" shows you're not thinking it through, you don't have to be at high revs to have high acceleration - my cars peak acceleration is at 3200rpm (out of 7500). You could have at least read the links I provided.
You forget about time in your thought processes I think - remember that for more throttle you'll accelerate faster, meaning shorter time accelerating. If your engine is 100% efficient and you take half the time to reach the same speed it would take the same amount of fuel just over a shorter period. But remember that your engine is throttled if done in the slower fashion, so if you take longer to reach your speed, you're spending more time with a strangled engine.

C.

Not being high and mighty, that's just what I'd do.

If I was stuck behind them for a reasonably long time, they obviously weren't getting the hint and there was no chance of pulling out to overtake then I [i]might[/i] consider undertaking.

Most likely though would be that I'd have seen that I needed to overtake, pulled into the middle lane, accelerated to 75 to make sure the cars approaching from behind didn't arrive too quickly and then overtaken him.

I've noticed that lane hoggers are usually one of the following:

Elderly man (optional hat)
Nervous-looking middle-aged woman
Minicab drivers on the way to the airport.

The most annoying things on motorways are the following:

People who change lanes without checking their blind-spot.

People who drive right up behind a slow-moving vehicle before the thought of changing lanes occurs to them and then change lanes without looking -Other drivers should be on the lookout for these imbeciles.

Often bolshy young ("I'm ****in' empowered, me") women or van drivers

[b]Tail-gaters -What exactly [u]is[/u] going in the mind of people who do this[/b]? So many people do it, there must be a lot of you on here.

Usually one of the following:

Pushy-looking blokes aged 25-50 in vans or Mid-seized cars (often base-model Audis or BMWs because that's the sort of car they aspire to).
The same bolshy young women.

I feel uncomfortable if I am a passenger with a driver who displays any of these characteristics and feel compelled to comment....

I have to say that the bolshy young women (typically in a Mini Cooper or a Punto adorned with pink things) seem to be taking over from the boy racers as the biggest menace on the roads. A lot seem to drive 'fast', but with no concept of what they're doing.

Middle lane drivers have provided good entertainment whilst driving vans, in convoy there is the box option, though my favourite is probably circling, which means the road is pretty empty and they are still out there, one guy went frickin' bansai on our 9th loop as he realised what was going on.

timber did you ever pull the wings off flies when you were a kid ?

Middle lane drivers have provided good entertainment whilst driving vans, in convoy there is the box option, though my favourite is probably circling, which means the road is pretty empty and they are still out there, one guy went frickin' bansai on our 9th loop as he realised what was going on.

ROFL!

high 5's timber.
true class 😀

BoardinBob - Member

So lets say you're cruising along at 60mph in the inside lane of a three lane NSL motorway and it's reasonably quiet.

You round a bend and up ahead is someone trundling at 50mph in the middle lane.

You check your mirrors and there's some traffic approaching from behind making an overtake difficult.

Do you

a) Stay in the inside lane and undertake even though it's not "congested conditions"

b) Swerve across three lanes to overtake them with traffic approaching from behind

c) slow down and make sure you don't undertake them until traffic behind has clear and you can overtake

Real world answers please, not high and mighty lies.

Personally it's answer A every time.

Well I hope you get seen by a cop and done for dangerous driving which is what that is - and cops hate it and normally throw the book at people for doing it.

Personally I would be using my skills of observation and anticipation so as not to get into any tangle - I'd probably flash the middle lane hog once and then if they stayed there move out into the outside lane to overtake.

If you have to

[b] Swerve [/b]across three lanes to overtake them

I really wish driving standards were enforced better. Middle lane hogging is "without due care" but undertaking is " dangerous driving"

Anyone who undertake is a dangerous liability who should have their licence taken off them

I'm with BoardinBob on this one - answer A. but proceeding with caution though - just in case it's TJ in the middle lane 😆

Seen plenty of people undertaking the usual "oooh god, a cop, stay in lane and drive at Vlimit-5mph right smack bang in front of cops. Never yet seen one pulled for passing them on the inside but have seen the cops undertaking in that situation. I can't claim to speak for the cops though, I've not discussed it with them. That said, when people do the usual "ahh, cop" and drive at BANG on the limit in their car causing a rolling roadblock, I normally pass them all on the outside and continue followed by a flood of chickens who didn't want to be first, never yet been fingered by the police for doing it. I agree with your principle though, two wrongs don't make a right, but at times it takes a lot less hassle and causes a lot less traffic interruption to pass on the inside, especially when you can see that the lane hog has been being flashed for several seconds and others are having to go around them. But like with anything dangerous, you take care, take your time and prepare to abort if they look like they are going to move and may come across your bow because at that point you're the one in the unexpected place. Though they should still be checking their blindspot when pulling back in, but since they don't seem able to remember the rules of the road I suspect they won't remember to look either.