JY why not get the kids to focus on the social aspects (e.g. 10 commandments) as well as pointing out the other options in terms of religions (so they can't all be right?) and atheist options. You are free to campaign for secular schools of course.
Catholic schools tend to be up there with the best results.
If you want an exam machine then yes that would be true. If you want a rounded human being then maybe not.
If you have a child with problems they are the ****ing worst. I wouldn't pee on any of the secondary Catholic School teachers near us if they were on fire. The sanctimonious un-christian bunch of bastards.
JY why not get the kids to focus on the social aspects
I dont know why not make Jews be atheists at school...really you need to ask? Perhaps we can make them recant the way we have to pray ?
Its a moral/social code I disagree with. I want my kids to use contraception, respect gay people, treat women equally, not seek the advice of an infallible virginal unmarried man for matrimonial advice etc. Might as well ask why meat eaters done want to be forced to study my vegan beliefs and eat one vegan meal a day at compulsory vegan school.
Its interesting how many exceptions from the law this moral code needs else it would be in breach of anti discrimination law. Not a set of ethics I like for my kids but YMMV. I bet the christians would be unhappy to be banned from schools by faith and jobs but hey to say this is like intolerant 🙄
God bless you 😉You are free to campaign for secular schools of course.
Sandwich, you seem to dislike Catholics. You give the reason that they are un-Christian. Are they some niche faction? Would you be happy if they were Christian instead?
I was educated by plenty of Catholics I'd quite happily describe as very "un-Christian" in their behaviour.
Thing is, I knew what Sandwich meant. I'm surprised anyone is taking him literally...unless it allows them to be a smarmy little smartarse.
Evening DD,
So you don't like un-Christians, or to be precise 😉 their behaviour, either. That makes two of you it seems.
I get the OPs concern.. I think most modern, progressive parents would [i]prefer[/i] their kids to attend a modern, progressive school that doesn't complicate it's gift of education with backwards ideas..
BUT, I'm very sceptical of fanatical anti-theists like some of the people posting here.. I know that it's a very on trend position to take and it's easy to see why..
If you're at that tender stage of personal development where you still believe that holding strong views on contentious issues gives you more credibility, the anti-theist stance is a pretty safe, some might say iron clad 'value' to assign to yourself to serve that purpose..
It's the current animal rights, CND, vegetarianism, pseudo hipster fad..
At this stage in the game though, we almost [i]all[/i] went to primary schools that had some kind of religious affiliation, and I don't imagine it's done any of us any harm (bar a very few isolated cases)..
If you really want to take a stance against indoctrination be anti-television, or anti-media, anti-5 day week, anti-capitalist, anti-facist...
Having a go at a school for singing a few hymns and teaching a couple of parables is just pure laziness.. I'm pretty sure that if you're a concerned parent it would take minimal effort to rationalise, balance out and fine tune any stuff your kids learn at school that doesn't gel with your own personal ideologies
I have waited thirty years to not look like a dirty hippy let me have my moment in the sun will you .It's the current animal rights, CND, vegetarianism, pseudo hipster fad..
Amusing but play the argument not the person. I am a "militant atheist" - WTF does it even mean? just as much as i am a militant Scientist or a militant anti homeopathy. When someone believes in hocus pocus and tries to force me and my kids to join in I think i have every right to be "militant".
Very good pointIf you really want to take a stance against indoctrination be anti-television, or anti-media, anti-5 day week, anti-capitalist, anti-facist...
When someone believes in hocus pocus and tries to force me and my kids to join in I think i have every right to be "militant".
This again!
When do you ever get people trying to force you to take part in organised religion?
On average I probably get a Jehovah Witness knocking on my door about once a year and I politely say "no thank you" and close the door. Even then they are not really "forcing" me to join in, just asking me to read something about their beliefs.
Does this really make you react in a "militant" manner?
Or do those big posters outside churches and chapels send you into a rage?
Are you so weak minded that you think that they may be able to convert you?
It all seems very strange behaviour.
fanatical anti-theists like some of the people posting here
I don't think I've seen any evidence that the anti-theists do anything about it but make the occasional sarcastic comment on Internet threads. If they're fanatics, they're not very good at being fanatical
I was going to say i was building a bomb as I type but that sort of joke can get you into trouble so I wont risk it.
You have a long way to go before you catch up with your more explodey fanatic competitors
I know ..no good comes out of a lack of faith and a loose moral system.
Forgive us
You are the Abu Hamza of the anti-theist movement and I claim my five quid 🙂
(could I just take a moment to clarify that I'm a big fat athiest, I just don't have a problem with educating my children in the fairy tales of a variety of cultures)
I know regular church goers who are very un-Christian in their behaviour and Catholic's have been responsible for some horrific behaviour be that treatment of single mothers, stealing of babies or child abuse. However, none of that makes a Catholic school "fundamentally" bad
well that explains the typosYou are the Abu Hamza of the anti-theist movement and I claim my five quid
🙂
I spelled fascist wrong in an earlier post.. I'm off to flagellate myself with birch twigs
(could I just take a moment to clarify that I'm a big fat athiest, I just don't have a problem with educating my children in the fairy tales of a variety of cultures)
This seems to be a recurring misunderstanding on this thread... I'm also an atheist (but not the athi-est atheist 😉 ) and very much want my kids to be educated about the fairy tales of various cultures. However, I don't want them to be instructed in those fairy stories, i.e. taught that they should believe them.
I did R.E. at school, it was an hour a week at mid-secondary school age, teaching us [i]about[/i] religion, but not teaching us (i.e. proselytising, for want of a less inflammatory term) religion. One is an integral part of understanding the world and how the human race got to where it is (good and bad), the other is completely inappropriate for kids. I think it's inappropriate for adults too, to be fair, but at least adults have mostly developed some critical faculties and can make an informed decision. We tell our kids to listen to their teachers, and that they can believe what their teachers say, it doesn't seem right to me to then have teachers teaching divisive and often unsubstantiated opinions as facts (I am aware of the potential hypocrisy here, e.g. history lessons where we learn from the victor's point of view etc.)
I'm off to flagellate myself with birch twigs
I trust they'll be hand-picked, naturally-seasoned twigs from your own artisanally-curated birch coppice?
Like I said, I get the OPs point..
Maybe I'm being a tad optimistic but I don't imagine primary schools being places where kids are indoctrinated..
Are you sure that you're thinking of a modern UK primary and not some horrendous thing from your parent's past, or a movie, or Nigeria, or your imagination or the daily mail?
We tell our kids to listen to their teachers, and that they can believe what their teachers say, it doesn't seem right to me to then have teachers teaching divisive and often unsubstantiated opinions as facts
Steer clear of how climate change is "taught" (sic) in [s]colouring in [/s]Geography at the moment then, or bits of the history (written by the winners) and economics syllabus!!
The GCSE RE paper is structured towards how each of the different religions address contemporary issues that are relevant to modern society. In contrast at A level you can choose to focus more on one religion of your choice albeit it with the address emphasis on applied ethics and philosophy. At the end of it, pupils have highly developed analytic skills that they can apply to everyday situations - mini THM surprised his headmaster by quoting Kant at him to prove why the HMs decision to suspend some but not all of a group was unethical!!
All from studying so-called fairy tales. 😉
Womb, so apart from having to travel across town, what is the problem? Reject the evil, poorly performing school and go to the morally superior, better performing option across town....job done.
At the risk of engaging someone so obviously willfully missing the point, are you really saying the best place for a child to learn to think critically is a [i]faith[/i] school? Nope, no inherant contradiction there is there?
we almost all went to primary schools that had some kind of religious affiliation, and I don't imagine it's done any of us any harm (bar a very few isolated cases)..
As someone educated in the sectarian school system that was/is the norm in the west of Scotland, I can attest to a very great deal of harm done. I'm not talking about the very specific harm done to a few individuals but rather the larger more insidious harm that is done to a wider society when things become tribal. Things probably aren't as bad these days, thanks no doubt in part to an increase in secularisation, but make no mistake a great deal of widespread harm was done.
I guess a key question for me would be what happens if my child were to tell another child that Jesus wasn't the son of any God, he just stayed dead and his followers made up the supernatural stuff. If the other child becomes upset and goes crying to the teacher would this prompt a discussion on different beliefs and the need to rub along without deliberately upsetting each other (whilst respecting the right to disagree), or would my child be punished for uttering beliefs that aren't school sanctioned? Or worse, would they end up on the receiving end of a lecture about Jesus being mankind's saviour and a reminder that Hell is a real place where those who deny the word of God end up in torment for all eternity?
@cyve firstly I'd say that's a very unlikely scenario (reaction/punishment side) and secondly if that worries you greatly you should send your kid elsewhere
As for critical thinking surely the best situation is for children to be exposed to different things and for them to form their own views
unknown - Member
At the risk of engaging someone so obviously willfully missing the point...
This, but...
teamhurtmore - Member
The GCSE RE paper is structured towards how each of the different religions address contemporary issues that are relevant to modern society. In contrast at A level you can choose to focus more on one religion of your choice albeit it with the address emphasis on applied ethics and philosophy. At the end of it, pupils have highly developed analytic skills that they can apply to everyday situations - mini THM surprised his headmaster by quoting Kant at him to prove why the HMs decision to suspend some but not all of a group was unethical!!All from studying so-called fairy tales.
At the risk of repeating myself... ok, so specifically repeating myself:
Yes. What you have described is exactly what I described as my experience of RE (local comp, early 90's) i.e. being taught about religion. Not just one religion, all the main ones, what they believe in, main holidays, similarities, differences, key historical events and so on and so forth. Essentially just general knowledge, about the world's religions. Not - and this is what I am increasingly convinced you are deliberately ignoring -, teaching kids that god loves them, that the baby jesus gets sad if you think naughty things, and that this god is the one true god and anyone who believes in another god is wrong (and will burn in hell for all eternity etc etc). None of that. That last bit, that's instilling religious belief. Teaching faith. Not Religious Education, a.k.a. the RE of my youth and your kids' too by the sound of it. Different subjects entirely.
Alternatively you a superb, David Taylforth-esque troll, in which case well played, sir, well played. 😀
Well put Will.
It's a strange old situation where people who object to their children being taught unprovable myths and legends* as fact get labelled as extremist, yet people who [i]believe[/i] said myths and legends have a special, protected against discrimination status, whilst ironically, the myths and legends crew have an almost exclusive deal on ACTUAL extremism.
*I'm hoping 'myths and legends' is less insulting/belittling to people's chosen belief systems than the oft used 'fairytales and hocus pocus' etc. I'm trying really hard to be even handed and non inflammatory.
I'm being a tad optimistic but I don't imagine primary schools being places where kids are indoctrinated.
So you think they have faith schools not to help grow the flock then?
There are people on here mentioning how their kids come home and talk to them about what Jesus did and that god loves them and that god is everywhere and god made everything - you have to be fantastically naive [ willfully?] to think the school run for a faith, taught by the faithful, wont try to "preach" their beliefs.
The problem is they tell tales of what Jesus did as if they were utter truths of the same level as the maths lessons and kids swallow it. YOu really think they then finish ever god utterance with - well that is what i think due to faith and i cannot prove any of it to be even remotely factually correct so hey its up to you to either follow evidence or faith?
you have deliberately confused a lack of certainty with "faith". Name another subject with no evidence to support its existence taught by the faithful - Go on name one. We dont because it would not be education.its akin to having homeopathy taught in schools by homeopathists.Steer clear of how climate change is "taught" (sic) in colouring in Geography at the moment then, or bits of the history (written by the winners) and economics syllabus!
The GCSE RE paper is structured towards how each of the different religions address contemporary issues
Its not. Its about understanding what they believe in for Paper 1 Paper 2 covers someish of what you mention
http://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/religious-studies/gcse/religious-studies-a-8062/specification-at-a-glance
Please note you only need to study two religions - and they had to ban the study of RC and christianity as two - that is how "diverse" they wanted to teach it. Imagine that eh preference to their own religion had to be legislated against - who could have predicted that eh
Again another one of those THM "points" that is basically like listening to AS describe the aftermath of devolution - there is some truth in there somewhere but the overall conclusion is fanciful in the extreme.
well we've just had easter, so now my eldest is of the opinion that jesus dying and coming back to life a couple of days later is a cast iron fact, not "this is what christians believe", he say's "it's actually true".As for critical thinking surely the best situation is for children to be exposed to different things and for them to form their own views
He hasn't been taught about christian beliefs he's been [i]told[/i] a [i]"fact"[/i].
I don't think many (any?) have issues with RE being [i]taught[/i], they have issues with outright bollocks being stated as facts, as I said it undermines the real stuff they are there to teach.
Yes Junkyard.. I know about the kids coming home with baby Jesus on their minds, and with questions about god..
God is inside you, you are god.. God is that peaceful feeling inside you when you meditate..
God is a feeling.. Some people are in love with that feeling and give it stories and names and allsorts.. I'll tell you about it one day.. It's pretty funny..
Jesus was a king about 2000 years ago, who was different from previous kings and wanted to teach people to be kind instead of greedy.. People liked his ideas so much that they wrote stories about him which are still remembered today!! Mental huh?
Now what do you want for tea kids?
It's not that hard is it?
My kids come home with questions about anything suspicious their teacher has said, if yours don't you've got bigger problems than religion to look forward to!
obviously I've been trying to talk about beliefs vs evidence, the liklihood of omniscient beings, I have actually taught him about a couple of dozen or so gods that school haven't got around to telling him about, all the while trying not trying to undermine the teachers on the other valid points like reading your book and doing your maths homework is a good idea.
He's just telling you that Donk, so you'll get distracted with your atheist rantings, then he can nick your easter eggs.
Admit it... you hadn't even noticed, had you?
I'm not a big fan of lying to kids*, they find an inaccuracy and ignore the whole argument. Also opens it up to teachers/other christians pointing out daddy has been telling porkies and offer to advise them of the truth.Jesus was a king about 2000 years ago, who was different from previous kings and wanted to teach people to be kind instead of greedy.. People liked his ideas so much that they wrote stories about him which are still remembered today!! Mental huh?
*on pain of divorce I'm not allowed to disabuse the kids of the whole santa thing
I'm not a big fan of lying to kids*, they find an inaccuracy and ignore the whole argument.
this translates as 'I leave their mum to take care of all the tricky parenting tasks'
Also opens it up to teachers/other christians [s]pointing out daddy has been telling porkies and offer to advise them of the truth.[/s] to endure a whole world of pain as they wriggle about squirming
FTFY
Get them watching 'The Book Of Life' so they can see how creative and confused the Mexicans get about dealing with death 🙂
My 8 year old has in the past few months been on visits to a synagogue and spent the day with the Jewish kids, then went to one of them there mosques and spent the day with the muslamics
I'm not quite sure where this fits with the whole catholic indoctrination/brainwashing thing.
Its obviously part of some evil papal agenda or other though, as JY has made such a convincing and impassioned argument, how could it not be? 😉
Personally I thought it sounded more like some bloody 80's Bennetton advert
no but it does lead to long winded explanations of stuff at bedtime when they start asking spurious questions. The eldest can get bored midway through the answer, possibly not the best tactic but I go for long winded honest answers over brief inaccurate (or outright lies) onesthis translates as 'I leave their mum to take care of all the tricky parenting tasks'
fair enough DONK...
If my kids think for one second that a long conversation at bedtime is acceptable they get shot down pretty quick
As for honesty.. the world is full of stories and esoteric and abstract concepts, if I broke everything down to dry academic principles they would grow up to be cyborgs who's only pleasures in life would be whisky and coffee and bikes and laughing at other's logical failings...
or worse than that... scientists!! 😯
Yes. What you have described is exactly what I described as my experience of RE (local comp, early 90's) i.e. being taught about religion. Not just one religion, all the main ones, what they believe in, main holidays, similarities, differences, key historical events and so on and so forth.
Phew, got that bit out of the way then
None of that.
Correct
Different subjects entirely.
On a roll now...
Perhaps my kids were lucky (to be v well taught) as they have a deep understanding and critical knowledge of religions, philosophy and ethics taken into higher education. Their level of critical analysis of any bIblical text is WAY beyond anything I was every taught or indeed heard in a church service. Both find the subject very interesting but neither is particularly religious. So neither have been indoctrinated but they have been educated.
Mini THM is doing theology as an extra course at Uni for fun. He has quite a lot of US students which he would suggest fit into the concerns raised above ^ . He recently said, "Dad it's really embarrassing when debating with these guys as they really believe in creationism. And it's hard to tell them that it's bllx when it's such an important part of their faith and they get upset." So knowledge and compassion - the fees were worth it! 😉
"Dad it's really embarrassing when debating with these guys as they really believe in creationism. And it's hard to tell them that it's bllx when it's such an important part of their faith and they get upset."
He must be pretty disciplined not to just point at them, and piss himself laughing.
Surely believing in creationism would exempt you from studying theology? Thats a bit like studying geography while believing the earth is flat, and getting uppity when people say it isn't.
The university must be desperate for those foreign student fees 😆
He finds it more frustrating than anything else. He would rather have a deep and critical debate - that's what HIS education taught him.
[Talking about shaky wizards and fairies wouldnt achieve much, other than upsetting them.]
I hope my kids get the same, trouble is I was indoctrinated, was also dragged to church and various other religious activities by my family and it took a long while to shrug all that off so its a path I don't particularly wish my kids to head down. I'd have been happy to not mention religion until they were a bit older and thinking more critically but school has forced the issue (the they started it defense 😉 )So neither have been indoctrinated but they have been educated.
there's people on the internet who have strange but deeply held beliefs about government conspiracies and lizard overlords, etc, do they get compassion from all or do people rip the piss? Special rules for religious beliefs?And it's hard to tell them that it's bllx when it's such an important part of their faith and they get upset
Good point DONK - they/ he gets the piss ripped out of him, and look who the main perpetrators are.
But special rules? - no such thing as STW shows - its one of the few things that you are perfectly able to rip the piss out of in a regular basis.
Yunki +1 on the concept of being inside you. Odd that so much time and effort is spent looking the wrong way.
It does amuse me that the repeated assertions on here that "it didn't happen to me therefore everyone else is wrong, it doesn't happen as all religious schools are clearly identical" is exactly the sort of wooly thinking that that the atheists are trying to keep their kids away from.
Anyway.
I don't think many (any?) have issues with RE being taught, they have issues with outright bollocks being stated as facts, as I said it undermines the real stuff they are there to teach.
Pretty much where I'm at TBH. I've nothing against RE being taught in an impartial manner. The problem comes in teaching it as fact alongside things like maths, and it's particularly insidious when it's aimed at kids who are too young to tell the difference.
This is what we're talking about when we say things like "indoctrination" I think; by the time kids are old enough not to believe everything that adults tell them, they've already accepted on naive trust that they're going to heaven if they love Jesus (and potentially what will happen if they don't).
If anyone seriously believes that a driving force behind faith schools isn't "get 'em whilst they're young" then they're deluded. Why do you think "every sperm is sacred" and condoms and masturbation are verboten? Far and away the best way of getting new believers is to grow them rather than convert adults; how many kids grow up to have a different faith from their parents? There's not many Muslims with Catholic children, I'll wager.
It does amuse me that the repeated assertions on here that "it didn't happen to me therefore everyone else is wrong, it doesn't happen as all religious schools are clearly identical" is exactly the sort of wooly thinking that that the atheists are trying to keep their kids away from.
That would be amusing if that were the case. But Coug's, read the posts, the definite/absolute comments are largely if not exclusively, in the opposite direction
The lack of critical thinking is what educationalists are trying to keep THEIR kids away from.
no such thing as STW shows - its one of the few things that you are perfectly able to rip the piss out of in a regular basis.
Horseshit, I'm not having that. Name one thing you cannot rip the piss out of? If STW were censored in such a manner I'd resign on principle.
Hell, if anything it's exactly the opposite; people are free to criticise and debate religion just as they can discuss anything else (so long as it's not going to get us arrested) [i]precisely because[/i] we don't give it special protection. Is that what you're arguing for?
