[Closed] Catholic church and child abuse.

kaesae - Member

As for the roman catholic church! from the people that brought you the earth is flat, say it isn't and you're toast. Murder witches as they are evil and torture countless people when you can. My favourite accomplishment of all time the dark ages! No wait there is one even more spectacular than that. Wasn’t it the romans as in the roman catholic church’s predecessors that got rid of jesus in the first place? same fools different shoes.

Thank god they don't have a large army any more and jesus christ could it die off any slower!

Quite (except for the "thank god" bit, obviously...) 😆

And as far as I'm aware, they haven't apologised for what they did to Galileo yet, either. 😉

"I do not have a belief system"- possibly the most incredible claim ever made on stw.

Why?

leggyblonde - Member

I'm now waiting for Mark Datz's contribution.

Oh, YES! 😆

There is a theory that God created the universe with the big bang.
Oh boy. *sigh*

That is not a theory. It's a hypothesis. To make it into a theory, you need evidence.

Point taken.

However, as a not hugely bothered agnostic, to me you still [i]come across[/i] as an over-zealous, agressive atheist.

Pause for a bit of light relief:

"[i]I believe the earth is supported on the back of a giant turtle[/i]".

"What's supporting the turtle?"

"[i]You can't fool me, it's turles all the way down![/i]"

o me you still come across as an over-zealous, agressive atheist

How?

i! The ironic thing is, I dont even think of myself as being that religious - I do lots of stuff that Ratzinger would dissaprove of, as do many supposedly religious people. I just wanted to point out that not all catholics blindly accept what the vatican tells them to, and then it all went a bit fundamentalist - It doesnt take much on here, does it?

Do you go to church?

Don't be so aggressive.

to me you still come across as an over-zealous, aggressive atheist

How?

Because your ability to logic and reason is mistaken for something else.

I for one am very impressed with your analytical technique but I do have to wonder why you waste your time when you have nothing to gain?

"I do not have a belief system"- possibly the most incredible claim ever made on stw.

could one not base one's philosophy on scepticism ? By definition, beliefs are unsupported conjecture, so it might be better only to accept those you cannot escape, like gravity and Mondays...

Lifer - yes I do,but not that regularly, and Mr Woppit - you watch QI too often, and please dont patronise me ( "This is encouraging in the case of those like barnsleymitch, who seem to be displaying some resistance to the full-blown requirement for blind obedience".) - I'm sure if you hadnt been so keen to go for my throat, your little 'debate' may not have come over in such an aggressive manner.

BTW everyone. Vickie's on BBC2 NOW!!!!

So you don't attend Mass every Sunday? Do you attend Confession before receiving the Eucharist?

Why the interest? Sorry, but I'm not biting. This has become so far removed from the original post, I dont know what point I'm supposed to be arguing from anymore. Find someone else to poke Lifer.

I think I've been perfectly reasonable all day. I just find it strange you have such big objections to what I said (about every Catholic being responsible) when it seems that you are Catholic in name only.

kaesae - Member

to me you still come across as an over-zealous, aggressive atheist

How?

Because your ability to logic and reason is mistaken for something else.

I for one am very impressed with your analytical technique but I do have to wonder why you waste your time when you have nothing to gain?

Nothing better to do. Need something to keep the old grey matter ticking over, and anyway, it's fun. Up to a point.

I won't respond to barnsley's post (well, perhaps by proxy), because he asked me to leave him the **** alone and I promised I would... If he wants to change his mind, however - I know how easy it is to get drawn back into these things...

Barnsleymitch

May I ask you a question about your religion?

Yes, but I'd ask you to read through the rest of this thread first.

Mr whoppit - how you cannot see that you come across as

as an over-zealous, agressive atheist

Junkyard - Member

it means your view is so extreme blah blah blah...
NOTHING WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND OR REDUCE YOUR CONTEMPT/HATRED OF RELIGOUS PEOPLE
A fine example of the misrepresentation I mentioned from the hysterical religious types on here.

I could suggest that they told them not to have sex out of wedlock and have sex with only their wifes and not with men. Had they followed this and married as virgins then they would have been fine re AIDS.

Oh well, of course THAT'S going to work. How very practical. Exactly what planet are you on?

the cult member who does this, is displaying a certain capacity for indpendent thought. This is encouraging in the case of those like barnsleymitch, who seem to be displaying some resistance to the full-blown requirement for blind obedience.

You pastronise those who comment against you

pastry?

As an Northern Irish Prod, Catholics are generally good people who believe in what they believe. Bating Barnsley is unfair as this has been caused by a few rotten apples who have drawn in a few bishops.

Blind religion? Not for me to say, each to his and her own, the issue lies more in respect and tolerance, but tolerance should never extend to paedophiles.

That was a quick response Woppit.

Have we been waiting hands atrembling, all fired up with adrenalin by the keyboard for the last couple of hours ?

Mr Woppit - Member

You pastronise those who comment against you

pastry?

kaesae - at the risk of taking another seeing-to, what did you want to ask?

I think he probably wanted to ask you something in connection with his [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stellar-realignment-theory ]STELLAR REALIGNMENT[/url] theory Mitch.

💡

If only... 🙄

My only question is 'What will it take to stop people being a Catholic/Protestant/Jew/Muslim/Zoroastrian/singlespeeder?'

If the Catholic Church as an institution is implicated in this, why do people still go, why still believe?

ernie_lynch - Member

That was a quick response Woppit.

Have we been waiting hands atrembling, all fired up with adrenalin by the keyboard for the last couple of hours ?

No.

Junkyard - Member

Mr Woppit - Member

You pastronise those who comment against you

pastry?

It made me smile but it also proved my point

Which was?

If the Catholic Church as an institution is implicated in this, why do people still go, why still believe?

Conditioning.

If the Catholic Church as an institution is implicated in this, why do people still go, why still believe?

it's 2 different things - people believe in god and Jesus - the church is just the worldly administration of the sect, and its corruption doesn't really impinge on belief any more than corruption in our government makes us less British.

I'm no fan of the Catholic church to put it mildly, but the some of comments made against barnsleymith are f*cking disgraceful IMO and it is to his credit that he has dealt with them with dignity, and (I suspect) revealed more about his personal life that he may have truely wished.

This is a great forum, but the incessant "my brain is bigger than your brain, unless you can defend your position with absolute unadulterated fact you are clearly inferior to me" mentality really f*cks me off and saddens me.

[i]it's 2 different things - people believe in god and Jesus - the church is just the worldly administration of the sect, and its corruption doesn't really impinge on belief any more than corruption in our government makes us less British.[/i]

That's a very poor metaphor, but I kind of get the idea.

It still amazes me though, that the Church is implicated in this, yet no-one stops going... What does it take?

That's a very poor metaphor

agreed 🙂

Woppit... well, first you said..

Religion propagates itself by the brainwashing and indoctrination of children, placed into it's programme by the child's parents.

Yes or no? If no - why?

then I said...

As to Woppit's assertion that the perpetuation of religion can be attributed soley to the indoctrination of children - my response is "nonsense" and I speak as a professional youth worker who has spend 20-odd years working in a church setting. If you ask the question, can I point to examples where education of young people has been distorted and become indoctrination - yes absolutely, but to suggest they represent an accurate overview of the church's work with young people is laughable nonsense.

then you said...

More misrepresentation. At no point did I suggest that this was the "sole" atttribute, so to suggest that this is what I said, is simply a lie. The indoctrination of children at the acquiesence of the parent(s) is, however, arguably one of the strongest tools of subjugation possessed by the cult.

If you read your initial question, which you reiterated on several occasions and insisted that barnsleymitch answered, you did in fact present childhood indoctrination as [i]the[/i] reason for the propagation of religion. I've refuted your assertion based on my professional opinion, which in turn is based on both personal experience and knowledge of a wide range of research. You might have the good grace to admit that your initial line of argument, which you pushed in an aggressive manner, was flawed. No lies here, only incoherence between your starting point and subsequent modification of your position.

ditch jockey, I feel that the main reason behind woppits posts was this - "Nothing better to do. Need something to keep the old grey matter ticking over, and anyway, it's fun. Up to a point."
So that's why you made me feel like a worthless piece of s**t most of the day? You really are an objectionable c**t woppit.

Religion propagates itself by the brainwashing and indoctrination of children, placed into it's programme by the child's parents.

Don't notice the word "sole" in there anywhere... and the grammar of the statement doesn't imply there are no other methods.

o that's why you made me feel like a worthless piece of s**t most of the day?

Not my fault. Don't be so oversensitive. Anyway, I thought you wanted me to leave you the **** alone?

Edit: Did I touch a raw nerve there, somewhere? Probably best to just leave it, then...

Oh, and -

You really are an objectionable c**t woppit.

I don't want to harp on about it, but haven't I been accused of being aggressive, elsewhere? One rule for me and another for evrybody else, I suppose.

Calm down.

I put up with inflammatory and frankly insulting posts from you for most of the day, without rising to your bait or insulting you back. I tried my damndest to make a point without criticising your views. You left me feeling absolutely useless and wrung out, and then I spotted your reply to kaesae's post outlining your reasons (nothing better to do, etc). Calm down? **** off woppit.

If you are reduced to "feeling absolutely useless and wrung out," by a muscular exchange of views on an internet forum, I suggest you probably need to keep away from exchanges that affect you so badly when you see them coming. I haven't sworn at you, insulted you personally or done anything else to spark such an extreme reaction as far as I can see. Do you get like this all the time, or is it just about your religion? Not trying to inflame you, just asking.

Edit: and just to remind you -you asked me to leave you the **** alone", and I did.

“A new heresy has been discovered,we must stamp out this burst of hell-fire before it spreads over the surface of the earth…. Freedom of conscience is a doctrine of the devil…. Better to have a tyrant, however cruel, than permit everyone to do what he pleases.”—John Calvin.

my brain is bigger than your brain, unless you can defend your position with absolute unadulterated fact you are clearly inferior to me" mentality

Sounds a bit silly to me, too.

.. and on a related point, that you are unable to distinguish between the Church, Roman Catholicism and the Confessing church, and seem to refer to the three people I mentioned as following a [i]"cherry picked version of catholicism"[/i] illustrates my point about a lack of understanding of the things you're arguing against more profoundly than ever could.

Perhaps more importantly, it also serves to illustrate part of the reason why people like yourself are unlikely to be taken as seriously as you might wish, because you remind us of the failings of which we are painfully aware, while refusing to acknowledge those parts of our history which inspire us with acts of love and compassion towards our fellow human beings.

In any event, you've indicated that a very negative experience of Catholicism in your own childhood lies at the heart of your worldview, and I doubt that anything i can say in a context like this is going to bring about some epiphany. I don't suggest that such an experience invalidates any of your arguments per se; they deserve to be critiqued on their merits and rejected or accepted on that basis alone. I don't find them convincing, mainly because I don't recognise your portrayal of Christianity as being complete or nuanced enough to conform to my own understanding. To suggest that the wrongs of the church are the sum and substance of it is untenable in my view, but they are nonetheless wrongs that need to be eradicated from the present practice of the church; to return to the original discussion, one single child abused in any part of the worldwide church is one too many, and for church leaders to ignore or cover up any abuse is totally and completely unacceptable. I find it hard to view Ratzinger with any degree of credibility, but then that's easy for me to say, as I'm not a Roman Catholic and belong to a reformed tradition that has a less hierarchical system of church government.

So that's why you made me feel like a worthless piece of s**t most of the day?

No, I don't reckon that's the reason.

In my experience, people who go completely over the top denouncing other people, are insecure about themselves. People who go out of their way to constantly criticise others, feel bad about themselves. To point an accusing finger and labour a point over, and over again, until the person feels like shit, makes them feel better about themselves.

But hey, that's not my area of expertise - you should know more about that sort of thing than me.....