[Closed] Catholic Church

Did they do these things [i]because [/i]they were members of the Catholic church.

No, but they get away with it because they are members of the church.

Did they do these things because they were members of the Catholic church.

Kind of, it's what happens when you tell people to not have sex then put them in charge of children?

Quite interesting listening to a bloke on "Midweek" on Radio 4 this morning. He had suffered abuse by a priest when he was 14.

He spoke quite eloquently about how the church and priesthood were so embedded into the fabric of life where he grew up that it was literally unthinkable that such a thing was happening and was so unreal to him that he thought he must be going insane.

He spoke of another boy who told his mother what was happening to him and his own mother attacked him. 😯

No, but they get away with it because they are members of the church.

[i]The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, the Most Reverend Vincent Nichols, said those who perpetrated violence and abuse should be held to account, [b]"no matter how long ago it happened"[/b].[/i]

It's odd, I wouldn't characterise it as abuse, but the parish priest at my Catholic school would touch any boys he could get hold of, and it was normal to see a crowd running away from him. It would never have occurred to me to tell anyone about it - I mean - he was [b]the[/b] figure of authority...

just read that of the €1.2 bn bill the irish government has set aside for compensation the catholic church will contribute just €120 million

the mind boggling thing for me is that there will be no prosecutions on the basis of the report
nor will the courts who 'sentenced' these children, the education authorities and religious orders who colluded or covered them up be investigated

wtf!!!

SFB - I'm pretty sure thats counted as sexual abuse. See another one, it's just amazing how rooted the abuse is. Yet no one blinks an eyelid. What if it was your 8 year old son the preists touched and raped?

personally i think they should crucify every paedo priest the convict

I agree with Kimbers, burn them like they burnt the Cathars.

[i]...leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales...[/i]

And therein lies the problem Ernie. If these people were based in England and Wales, then I have no doubt they'd be held to account long ago.

However, it's hard for anyone who doesn't realise just how much the church and state were entwined in Ireland to understand how the perpetrators were allowed to get away with this for so long. We're talking about a country where the government "had" to consult the church hierarchy before passing any major legislation. Jeez, I could go on for paragraphs and paragraphs about the reasons why those who were members of the church lived above questioning by the general populace. The church thrived on ignorance and poverty (think Africa and AIDS for something currently happening) - and in the Irish population, they found a fairly ill-educated and extremely poor people, especially in the rural areas - where most of the Irish still lived until the last few decades when mass urbanisation began.

It angers me that it was the Catholic church involved but it angers me perhaps even more that the state colluded. Everybody was afraid to take on the church. Hell, I'm only in my late thirties and when we were kids, we were scared to death of a priest scolding us and believed the fire and brimstone that the more maniacal ones spouted from the pulpits every Sunday. Our parents were even more sh1t-scared of them and of course, their fears were visited upon us.

My mother taught in Christian Brother run schools (not the state run industrial ones that were being investigated) and I went to a Christian Brother run secondary school. By this time, corporal punishment had been banned but it seemed to go over certain brothers' heads. Some of them regularly beat the living daylights out of some of my contemporaries - and the sad thing now when I look back on it, was guys were regularly beaten for "being a bit thick" or "not understanding". How I'd love to go back and kick seven colours of shite out of some of them, the evil bastards. Some of them were nutters...whether the order attracted nutters or the idea of living in a close community of just men turned them that way, we'll never know. The industrial schools were gone by the time I went through school but I remember hearing stories from truck drivers, when I used to hitch lifts around Ireland, that had been subjected to some of the abuse we're hearing about now...it made me sick. And my mum could turn your stomach talking about some of the brothers she worked under all her life...again this was just in state schools, not the schools for the really naughty kids.

FFS, I've got to stop...I've spent the day spitting blood with every report and interview. It's a shameful day and I suspect a very painful one for some of the people who have not dealt with the scars properly and are looking at fresh mental wounds today.

SFB - I'm pretty sure thats counted as sexual abuse

I wasn't excusing what he did in any way, though as I recall at the time we mostly thought of it as funny. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he did worse, given the opportunity.

Lets get a grip here. It's easy to get angry and say lets torture, maim and kill them but unless your the killing torturing type you may as well just put a sock in it or think of something else to say.

It is utterly disgusting and the guilty should be severely punished - even if it means throwing 90 year olds at deaths door into jail then so be it. **** them.

Anyway, I can't fathom how anyone could ever go to mass after this (or after the whole thing blew up 15 years ago) especially seeing how the church as an organization has closed ranks. Any priest with self respect should leave in protest. They are all complicit imo. Scum of the worst kind.

I wasn't excusing what he did in any way, though as I recall at the time we mostly thought of it as funny.

Bloke on the radio was talking about that too. Everyone knew what was going on and made jokes about it: "Don't bend over when Father Fiddlee is about" etc

He said that by making jokes and gossip about it they effectively absolved themselves of the responsibility to actually do something about it.

they effectively absolved themselves of the responsibility to actually do something about it.

I don't think you could expect the children to take any responsibility...

Sorry I meant that he felt the [u]adults[/u] knew to some extent, but joked and gossiped about it.

Best not wear my fancy dress costume I have this weekend then !

{Removed} - Mod

WTF you may joke, but is abusing 2000 kids really that funny?

I cannot conceive that that costume does anything other than condone child abuse 🙁

WTF, I think you might need "when and where it's appropriate to post..." lessons.

Oh yes, Catholic church in child abuse shocker.
I heard we beat the Germans again at war again also.
I heart STW.

Any institution that approbates abuse is corrupt.. whether it's a religious, political or educational organisation. Those who close ranks to protect their own are as guilty as the perpetrators IMHO.

I just think it's odd that the OP led with 'Catholic Church' as opposed to the main issue: child abuse. I'd find it odd leading with 'Schools!' if it was about abuse in the education system. Tarring all with the same brush isn't helpful. IF the majority of the catholic clergy are guilty then there's an argument for bringing down the whole edifice, but facts and statistics are the ground for that debate not hearsay and rumour. Comments suggesting that those who are celibate are a greater risk around children are at best unhelpful, at worst prejudiced.

as for making a 'fancy dress joke' out of child abuse ... WTF?!

Thanks Mods...for once.

You don't understand what I am really saying, if it was child abuse in education then the perpetrators would be named, shamed and jailed. The more serious problem is the fact that these people are exempt of any kind of abuse laws simply because they are members of a corrupt religious organisation.

They have refused to publish names and refused to prosecute these people. They should not be above the law and should be jailed for their crime, like any other person in education convicted for abusing children would be.

There's a theme here isn't there, institutional abuse and again it appears that the govmt didn't and won't do anything about it.

Truly, truly deplorable.

I guess it's worth saying it was the Irish government and not the British one...sorry if you already knew

I would argue that the majority of catholic clergy knew about the abuse and chose not to act either through coercion, cowardice or self interest

the same goes for the state institutions who allowed it to continue

the reason that there are no prosecutions is that they would not know where to stop, the majority of the Irish establishment of the time could be implicated and by association every educated adult.

They are in mass denial and Godwins Law applies

I'd like to see all Catholics in Ireland leave the church immediately. Can't see that happening but if it did I am sure there would be a proper response rather than just say sorry and convict no-one.

Although not abused as such, i went to a catholic school and was strapped on a regular basis because I was dim, rarely because I was naughty. Some christian brothers clearly took delight.

I despise the catholic church and in particular Christian Brothers who aren't christian at all.

I hope they all get cancer, well most of them anyway.

wow! thats shocking! just read the story on the bbc site, i've never been a fan of the church or religion in general! its just a socially accepted cult!

About time their top man or at least his spokesman in Rome spoke out and condemned all the child molesters to a good smiting or whatever puts the fear in them

and condemned all the child molesters to a good smiting or whatever puts the fear in them

there's one small problem - Jesus's main theme was forgiveness - it was the Old Testament god that was into smiting - though one might be forgiven for thinking that the tradition had been maintained...

Truly appalling, and another manifestation of the twisted mindset that produced the Magdalene Laundries. While I would say I have a sort of spiritual side to me, it's reading of this kind of thing that has kept me away from any kind of established religion. If there is a Greater Power, and there is truly any justice in this universe, then I would hope that these perverts get what they deserve. What goes around comes around.

to my mind punishment is irrelevant - full exposure of the crimes, and more to the point, effective measures to prevent recurrence are what matter. Once the abuse has taken place it cannot be undone. But isn't it hypocritical to call down vengence on abusers whilst condoning pointless foreign occupations involving not merely abuse but wholesale killing ?

SFB, try telling the people that were abused that punishment is irrelevant! quite a few of them seem quite understandably pissed off that they are getting off with this. Other issues around the world are irrelevant to this, those responsible should be dealt with in some form or another.

And therein lies the problem Ernie. If these people were based in England and Wales, then I have no doubt they'd be held to account long ago.

I can't comment on Ireland DD. But I can comment on my own experiences. I had a pretty profoundly catholic upbringing and from infant school onwards I was in a lot of contact with priests, nuns, and brothers. Not just in school but also in catholic youth organisations such as scouts, and others.

I never experience any abuse whatsoever. In fact the opposite is true. I lived in a house where emotional abuse and/or gratuitous violence was a daily occurrence and the only relief I got from it was through youth activities organised by the catholic church. And as a consequence my only fond memories of childhood are associated with those activities, something for which I will always be eternally grateful for. Without going into details, it was the knowledge that I could go to the priest house in my darkest hours where I knew I would get support, which helped me keep my sanity.

It is probably for those reasons that I have somewhat irrational attitudes towards paedophile priests. Because whilst I am a very strong opponent of capital punishment, I would quite happily have all paedophile priests shot. For me paedophile priests represent the ultimate abuse of trust. And they simply don't deserve to live imo.

[url=

Condell - Catholic morality[/url]

This guys sums it up! (with edgy humour)

He grew up with Catholicism and it was this that enabled him to see the light - there is no light, no God!

Aetheism - the only rational way chaps, but do and believe as you wish.

I like the quote on [url= http://www.patcondell.net/ ]Pat Condell's website[/url] "Hi. I'm Pat Condell. I don't respect your beliefs or care if you're offended. Cheers!" - classic!

Peace! 😀

If these people were based in England and Wales

hasn't there been a long running case on systematic child abuse by police officers and others in North Wales??

hasn't there been a long running case on systematic child abuse by police officers and others in North Wales??

Has there ? So what does that prove - that the catholic church investigates systematic child abuse in England and Wales, or that it doesn't ?

that the catholic church investigates systematic child abuse in England and Wales, or that it doesn't ?

I don't think it's the church's place to investigate anything - child abuse is a criminal matter and should be tackled by the police. The church's involvement need only extend to full disclosure and cooperation.

Any priest with self respect should leave in protest. They are all complicit imo.

While I agree with you that the "good ones" have an obligation to stand up and speak out/name and shame the "bad ones", I think it is a little more difficult for them than you make out. Priests believe that the Catholic Church is God's representative structure on earth and that they are doing their life's calling that has been put in their heart by God - that they were born to do this one thing and that it is the most important job in the world (at least that they could do). So I am a little sympathetic to those who would say "I will never leave the church" - even if they're not right, there's still Stockholm Syndrome to consider.

I just think it's odd that the OP led with 'Catholic Church' as opposed to the main issue: child abuse. I'd find it odd leading with 'Schools!' if it was about abuse in the education system.

Your comparison would only make sense if, say, the Inner London Education Authority purported to have its own internal justice system, regarded itself as being above the civil/criminal/state law, ignored numerous allegations against individual teachers, used social opporobium to disgrace (alleged) victims and, when the shit finally hit the fan, allowed paedophile teachers to retire or transfer their jobs to developing countries where the kids were even more vulnerable and there was even less chance paedophiles would face prosecution.

there's one small problem - Jesus's main theme was forgiveness - it was the Old Testament god that was into smiting - though one might be forgiven for thinking that the tradition had been maintained...

I think you will find the new testament preaches plenty of violence also. Its a common misconception.

The church's involvement need only extend to full disclosure ...

Not so easy to do SFB if you also believe :

I don't think it's the church's place to investigate anything

btw you still haven't explain how the Welsh police child abuse investigation is relevant to whether the catholic church in England and Wales is more likely to investigate claims than the church in Ireland.

Having read this article :

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/abuse-report-state-officials-stood-by-as-thousands-were-raped-14308643.html

I get the impression that Irish society is very different to British society - I simply can't see similar circumstances occurring in Britain. Therefore I suspect DD is right.

There is a difference between disclosure and co-operation on one hand, and on self-investigation/regulation on the other. A bleeding obvious difference, in fact.

Meanwhile, although I would hardly describe Australia as a developing country, this is an interesting/related article: "A NUMBER of Catholic priests living in Sydney are expected to be implicated in child abuse when a long-awaited report is published today...The report could have serious implications in Australia, as it is believed many of the offending priests were moved after complaints were made against them."
http://www.smh.com.au/national/irish-report-likely-to-implicate-sydney-priests-on-sex-abuse-20090519-beao.html

Oh yes, Catholic church in child abuse shocker.

Says it all really.

btw you still haven't explain how the Welsh police child abuse investigation is relevant to whether the catholic church in England and Wales is more likely to investigate claims than the church in Ireland.

I wasn't thinking about the church at all, I was responding to what I thought was the suggestion that such abuse couldn't happen in those places.

There is a difference between disclosure and co-operation on one hand, and on self-investigation/regulation on the other. A bleeding obvious difference, in fact.

yes, but my point is that the church's mission is about pastoral care and religious duty, and as such it could be expected to be incompetent at criminal investigation

I agree entirely, which is why ErnieFredRudeboy's suggestion that there is a conflict between believing that the Church should disclose and the Church shouldn't be expected to investigate itself is nonsense.

ErnieFredRudeboy's suggestion

I've just discovered that the rules don't prohibit multiple identities...

I have a simple question for any folks of religious conviction on here. Not a pop or anything, just a straight question.

Has any of the above made you question your fundamental beliefs at all?

Personally there is no way I could ever continue to subscribe to catholicism in light of this, but then I I wans never a catholic and I gave up on any form of god bothering a long time ago having spotted a few fundamental flaws in the concepts, i.e. religion = traditional version of conspiracy theory. Absolute rubbish but due the nature of it difficult to either prove or disprove, and lack of prrof is taken as evidence.

"Absolute rubbish but due the nature of it difficult to either prove or disprove, and lack of prrof is taken as evidence."

People with faith don't want or need evidence.

Has any of the above made you question your fundamental beliefs at all?

I think people are quite clear on the difference between the concept of god and the worldly realisation of religion. When I was assaulted by a priest it never occurred to me to question my faith - that came later when I was invited to think about the subject and found it to be nonsense.

I suspect an application of The Marquess of Queensburys' tactic with libel may be the best way to go on this one. Burden of proof being with the plaintiff not the defendant.

NB - Scouts is not a catholic organisation.

Englishman living in ireland here, was brought up without religion in my parents house, in fact I only went to chruch on rememberence sunday with the scouts.

Everyone I've chatted to here is disgusted with the way it's all been swept under the carpet but are all of the the "didn't expect any different" opinion. Church and State were so intertwined for so long it's hard to see how you could seperate it all once you start to include the people that helped to cover up the abuse.

I'm an atheist but the wife is a catholic - she still believes in god but hasn't been to mass for the last 5-6 years now. There was a lot of pondering before we had our nipper christened as to weather we should or not.

konabunny - Member

People with faith don't want or need evidence

I thought that was pretty much what I'd said.

I think people are quite clear on the difference between the concept of god and the worldly realisation of religion.

Apparently not, otherwise why on earth would they continue to subscribe to what is so clearly and demonstrably and "ungodly" organisation?

I suspect an application of The Marquess of Queensburys' tactic with libel may be the best way to go on this one. Burden of proof being with the plaintiff not the defendant.

Yeah, but which is which?

G

Comments suggesting that those who are celibate are a greater risk around children are at best unhelpful, at worst prejudiced.

So why are so many Catholic priests guilty of abuse then?

It seems amazing to me that an organization which has harboured and protected so many paedophiles and abusers is still allowed to be involved in education and youth work.

So why are so many Catholic priests guilty of abuse then?

Aye and how many other religions are paying out BILLIONS to abuse victims?

I can't openly criticize Catholicism due to Race hate legislation.

imho becomming a priest nun monk whatever may have a attracted a few people who were already paedophiles but many more who simply couldnt deal with life in the real world so instead chose the church
basically religous orders have a tendency to attract freaks

just my opinion

So why are so many Catholic priests guilty of abuse then?

Whilst not wanting to be an aplogist for any abusers, or the catholic church for that matter, I'd challenge the validity of this statement.

Is the prevalence of abusers higher in religious orders than the general population or do we just hear about it more because it is deemed newsworthy?

What is the prevalence in other religions?

What proportion of abuse is committed by those in religious orders? I'd suspect that it is relatively small as the vast majority of abuse is committed by family members.

I don't post these questions with a view to getting answers, just a challenge to the opinion that religious orders are full of abusers.

"I can't openly criticize Catholicism due to Race hate legislation"

Hora, you are the STW village idiot.

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops commissioned a comprehensive study that found that four percent of all priests who had served in the U.S. from 1950 to 2002 faced some sort of sexual accusation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church_sex_abuse_scandal

OK so it's wikipedia but the source seems correct. In the US btw.

Now four percent seems a pretty high figure to me - are four percent of all people generally accused of sexual abuse?

are four percent of all people generally accused of sexual abuse?

the thing is, they are in a position of trust and supposed to set a good example

"Now four percent seems a pretty high figure to me - are four percent of all people generally accused of sexual abuse? "

Dunno - but forty to sixty percent of women have been sexually abused, so it hardly seems that high. (I don't have a source for that statistic, obviously).

(I don't have a source for that statistic, obviously).

Why not?

Reminds me of:

"Now that is scientific fact - there's no real evidence for it - but it is scientific fact".

Hora, you are the STW village idiot.

Better that than someone who follows hypocritical-child touchers.

I read once that as the Catholic church is centralised (is that the correct term?) under the one authority (the vatican), and thus has it's very substantial assets in one place, it is much easier to sue and claim compensation for sexual assaults than for other churches which although of the same denomination, operate independantly of one another and as such have relatively little wealth in the pot. Which may be why we hear less reports of abuse from other Christian churches and other faiths.

This could all be nonce-sense though.

This article applied to the US though, and no, I can't find it.

than for other churches which although of the same [b]denomination[/b]

wrong word, in this context 'denomination' means 'name of religion', so other churches will be of a different denomination, even if still Christian

Sorry Simon. That's correct.

Dr Dolittle and I was called the STW Village idiot.

Regardless of 'sue-ability' why dont we hear about countless Anglican, Protestant etc etc Priests/Vicars being convicted/etc in droves?

Regardless of 'sue-ability' why dont we hear about countless Anglican, Protestant etc etc Priests/Vicars being convicted/etc in droves?

Don't know really, maybe they're not noncing to the same degree?

Maybe they pace themselves more? Sort of *SFB-censored* for a marathon rather than gorging themselves a la Catholic?

By the sound of it hora the people in question seemed to be in for the long haul, not a one night binge.

I think the use of the word 'fiddling' is inappropriate in this context

But it's ok, they're banning gays and praying lots

Pope Benedict XVI has instructed Roman Catholics to pray “in perpetuity” to cleanse the Church of paedophile clergy. All dioceses, parishes, monasteries, convents and seminaries will be expected to organise continuous daily prayers to express penitence and to purify the clergy.

Vatican officials said that every parish or institution should designate a person or group each day to conduct continuous prayers for the Church to rid itself of the scandal of sexual abuse by clergy. Alternatively, churches in the same diocese could share the duty. Prayer would take place in one parish for 24 hours, then move to another.

Vatican watchers said that there was no known precedent for global prayer on a specific issue of this kind. There are about one billion Roman Catholics worldwide.

The instruction was sent to bishops by Cardinal Cláudio Hummes of Brazil, head of the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy. He told L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, that he was acting in the Pope’s name. The Pope wanted Catholics to pray for the “mercy of God for the victims of the grave situations caused by the moral and sexual conduct of a very small part of the clergy”, he said.

Officials said that the prayers were in addition to support for legal action against paedophile priests by their victims and a code adopted two years ago by the Vatican to try to ensure that men “with deep-seated homosexual tendencies” do not enter seminaries to train for the priesthood.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3142511.ece

Perhaps the celibate lifestyle isn't all its cracked up to be.....

and a code adopted two years ago by the Vatican to try to ensure that men “with deep-seated homosexual tendencies” do not enter seminaries to train for the priesthood

which is irrelevant to child abuse

so if I read that right their main way of tackling the problem is through non-stop prayer ? This goes to why I suggested the church was illequipped for self investigation....

The Pope wanted Catholics to pray for the “mercy of God for the victims of the grave situations caused by the moral and sexual conduct of a very small part of the clergy”, he said.

SO ONE IN 25 IS A VERY SMALL PART OF THE CLERGY..... OH RIGHT SILLY OLD ME AND THERE WAS ME THINKING IT WAS SOMETHING SERIOUS!!!

“with deep-seated homosexual tendencies” ................which is irrelevant to child abuse

Oh right, so the buggery of boys isn't an issue then? Mind you I quite agree that homosexuality doesn't make you beat kids, or starve them so they could quite reasonably throw the noose a tad further. In fact I reckon the very fact that you want to be a priest/nun/monk should automatically disqualify you from being one.

Oh right, so the buggery of boys isn't an issue then?

no, but I think it's incorrect to suggest gays are any more likely to abuse boys than heterosexuals are to abuse girls

I stand open for correction, but I think you will find that the majority of the sexual abuse is male on male....... besides if they banned em all they'd run out of Church!

but I think you will find that the majority of the sexual abuse is male on male.

this raises 2 questions:
1) is it gay/bi/hetero on boy ? (ie distribution of sexuality of abusers)
2) is it because boys are less likely to report abuse ?

I think you will find the new testament preaches plenty of violence also

the trouble is it's so boring I have to go on my memories from school 45 years ago 🙁