[Closed] Cat & Fiddle "The most dangerours road in the UK" - Really?

Sorry mate I didn't see you*

* you came ramming around that corner so damn quickly I didn't even have half a second in which to clock you.

Quicker to walk.

[img] [/img]

both feet of the ground so technically he is running 😀

World's fastest runner! Top pic - Vale is it?

running away from the undeniable evidence of having exceeded his skills level no doubt (rossi?)

I think there are a few roads in North Yorkshire and Cumbria in the hunt for that dubious title.
IME backing off mid bend tightens the line, accelerating too soon makes the bike run wide. You should enter a bend on a trailing throttle and start accelerating and standing the bike up when you see the exit, surely?
Do we really want bikes (or cars) to be restricted in any way at all? Life is dangerous, people will only find another way to injure themselves. I'm sure that, statistically, the roads are massively safer than 30 - 40 years ago and some of the sfaest in the world. But I ride bikes, so I'm biased. However, a lot of people post on here about their superfast German cars - I wonder how many can honestly say that they haven't strayed over the centre line on a bend? Could have killed a biker obeying the speed limit, that.

failedengineer - Member

IME backing off mid bend tightens the line,

Nope - deffo makes the bike run wider. More obviuous on big bikes with wide tyres or non paralellogram shafties You can back off and go tighter but it needs a hefty does of countersteering to make it do so. You may be doing this unconsciously

Do we really want bikes (or cars) to be restricted in any way at all?

The difference between people driving like dicks and going say rock climbing or DH mtbing is that on the roads, there are completely innocent parties coming the other way.

So it is not just about you.

My wife and daughter could be driving along tonight quite carefully and someone could come round a corner out of control and kill them both*. You have the right to endanger your own life, but not those of others.

* before you scoff this happens a lot, and to people I've known too.

#

clubber - Member

OK, TJ, I'm not going to argue over what fast means because clearly we won't agree. In the past you've talked about overtaking and going over the speed limit which can be safe in the right circumstances including the skill of the rider.

Again - not what I said and a different debate.

Would you not agree though that there's a significant number of accidents where it'll ( training ) make no/very littel difference though and where speed will be an important factor?

Nope - cos thats not what the research suggests. In fact its the other way round - in a small number of accidents reducing speed would make a difference a large number extra training will make a difference.

as I said right at the beginning a major issue is that in your training and testing you are not taught to swerve or brake at high speed. learning these things makes much more difference that reducing speed by a few MPH Skill in braking will make more difference to stopping distances than a small reduction in speed.

iterestingly one of the magazines has been lbbying hard and campaigning for the test and training to be made harder and to incorporate these two things.

TJ is this like lifting off in a RWD car?

Al - nope. its because of the rounded tyres, the distance from the centre line to the contact patch because of the wide tyres, camber thrust and a whole load of complicated things that are hard for me to understand and even harder to explain. it does not involved loss of grip at all. its a geometric effect. Castor angle is involved as well.

I'll see if I can find an explanation.

Links to the research please TJ. You started this thread saying there were no junctions and that the high number of accidents on the Cat&Fiddle was due to unskilled riders with no other factors and I reckon that both have been shown to be inaccurate.

As above its people riding to fast for their skill levels and they pay the ultimate price.

I don't know what the answer is. Teh demographic is middle class middle aged men. They usually they had bikes in their youth and now they have some time and money they buy themselves sportsbikes that are far beyond their capabilities to ride.

Easily spotted but really hard to know what to do with them to stop them killing themselves

And average age was 35 which in my book isn't middle aged (well not quite... 😉 )

Having the skills does make it safer to go fast, but it doesn't make it right.

molgrips - Member
The difference between people driving like dicks and going say rock climbing or DH mtbing is that on the roads, there are completely innocent parties coming the other way...

Thanks TJ - don't worry about detail.

Would a quick bit of front-wheel lock not sort out the situation?

a small reduction in speed

Who's arguing for a small reduction? All I am saying is that reduce your speed to the point where you're not going to crash. Hardly controversial, is it?

That may mean a BIG reduction in speed.

You are arguing for more skill training - well surely one of the main skills of any rider or driver is knowing how fast is too fast. So we therefore agree...

Interesting read:

Rutter and Quine (1996) looked at age and experience in motorcycling safety, and
from a national prospective survey of over 4,000 riders in the UK found that age
played a much greater role than inexperience in explaining why young age groups
are over-represented in casualty statistics. Rutter and Quine explain that more
emphasis should be given to the consequences of dangerous riding and why training
is so important: ‘Only when a proper set of underpinning beliefs and perceptions is
provided for behaviour will skills be turned into safety’.

The motorcycle accident database has shown that the most common cause of single
vehicle accidents is a result of riders misjudging the appropriate speed to negotiate a
bend in the road. A question was therefore included on the questionnaire asking the
respondents how often, if ever, they have misjudged the speed required to negotiate
a bend. Even though 69% of respondents appeared to be very experienced, they
admitted to occasionally miscalculating bends. There were over 200 accidents on the
motorcycle accident database that were a direct result of a rider losing control on a
bend and, although the reasons for losing control were often unknown or not
recorded, it is known that inappropriate speed was the main cause of 27.5% of the
accidents.

The over-riding message to motorcyclists is that they must slow down, not merely in
relation to mandatory limits but also in consideration of various normal road
hazards, particularly bends. In addition, they must avoid overtaking slower moving
vehicles in the vicinity of junctions, even if the traffic is stationary and they are
‘filtering’ past it.

Riders’ attitudes
There were many causes of motorcycle accidents given on the motorcycle accident
database that involved an element of risk taking. The questionnaire respondents,
however, mentioned just four broad categories and it was risk taking on the part of
the riders rather than the other road users that was seen to be a problem by the
questionnaire respondents.
The most interesting finding was that a quarter of the respondents (25.5%, n ¼ 141)
thought a major cause of motorcycle accidents was riders riding too fast for
conditions. Despite this, however, 58% (n ¼ 143) of the respondents admitted to
always or frequently breaking the speed limit, with the remaining occasionally doing
so. The riders therefore made a clear distinction between breaking the speed limit
and driving at inappropriate speeds that are too fast for conditions (but not
necessarily breaking the speed limit). One of the respondents to the questionnaire
who wished to remain anonymous attached a letter to their questionnaire that
summarised the feelings of many of riders:
‘I find that the speed limits set are often completely inappropriate
depending on the circumstances. . . I would consider riding at 30 mph past
a school when the children are leaving as being far too fast but on the
other hand what possible danger could result from travelling along an
open stretch of motorway at 11pm at night without another vehicle in sight
at 80 or even 90mph?’
An examination of the causes on the motorcycle accident database would seem to
indicate that the respondents may have a point, as travelling in excess of the speed
limit was only a causation factor in a minority of accidents on the accident database,
though travelling at inappropriate speeds too fast for conditions accounted for a
greater number of accidents. The figures would suggest therefore that the riders are
correct in making this distinction. The lack of importance the riders gave to
observing the speed limit was also shown by the safety measures given by the
respondents to the questionnaire. A total of 117 respondents to the questionnaire
(79.6%, n ¼ 147) considered observing the speed limit as being one of the least
important safety measures a motorcyclist can take.

Training initiatives, such as ‘Bikesafe’ in Scotland, described by Ormston et al.
(2003), have reportedly had some success in using ‘assessed ride’ techniques to
teach vulnerable motorcyclist groups more defensive riding techniques.
However, while this leads to an apparently favourable adoption of lower speeds
in built-up areas, it can increase motorcyclists’ confidence and thus their
likelihood of adopting faster speeds in rural areas. As a large proportion of
serious and fatal accidents happen in rural areas, it is far from clear that
increasing motorcyclists’ confidence in this area would be productive.

Unashamedly selective quoting I'll admit but it's nothing like the clearcut case that TJ seems to suggest IMO.

(In the interest of fairness it does agree with TJ's points but they're just some of the factors rather than the only/main/key ones that he seems to be suggesting)

TJ seems to be making facile points. That is, teaching riders to ride safely is better than saying slow down slightly.

Well dur.

Clubber - interesting stuff indeed. the first quote is 14 years old This demographic thing is something that has been changing a lot over recent years. I thought I had said there were other causes and so on.

Also that sort of thing relies both on extrapolating and also is a nationwide statistic., I believe on the honeypot roads the overcooking the corner by born agains is overrepresented compared to nationwide. I can't find the recent bit of data on this.

All I want to try to show was the reasons why the A537 has such an huge number of dead motorcyclists.

Finally - an anecdote that hopefully shows a part of my point

Me and a couple of mates were out for a ride. Nice dry sunny day. Up in the highlands. We were riding " making good progress" - Certainly breaking the 60 mph limit at times but only at 70% effort or so - no where near our limits on a road we knew well. All in our late 30s / 40s with around 100 yrs experience and a a million miles or so between us. Bikes a firestorm, a BMW R1100, a bandit 12 and a ZZR1100. None bar the ZZR over 100 bhp and none supersports bikes.

We overtook a small group of power rangers on sportsbikes. One tried to follow us ( GSXR 600) and on a sequences of open bends at around 50 mph did exactly what I have described and put his bike thru a hedge, Fortunately he was not hurt. Now we were all doing the same speed. He crashed, we were not even near the limit. His bike was far more capable than ours, he crashed because he did not have the skills to ride a medium speed corner at a relativity modest speed. Seriously if we had been going for it we could have gone round that corner at 70+ mph. Wanting to keep reasonable safety margins on the public road we aere around 50 mph. he was still over his limit.

focussing on speed is unhelpful. wer were not riding oo fast by any definition. But at the same speed he was riding beyond his capabilities and thus crashed.

Addressing the skills gap is a far more useful thing that saying " slow down"

How slow do you want us to ride molgrips?

TJ all that shows is that some riders are more skilled than others.

How slow do you want us to ride molgrips?

Not too much to ask is it?

Me and a couple of mates were out for a ride. Nice dry sunny day. Up in the highlands. We were riding " making good progress" - Certainly breaking the 60 mph limit at times but only at 70% effort or so - no where near our limits on a road we knew well. All in our late 30s / 40s with around 100 yrs experience and a a million miles or so between us. Bikes a firestorm, a BMW R1100, a bandit 12 and a ZZR1100. None bar the ZZR over 100 bhp and none supersports bikes.

You're my hero! 🙄

This could so easily read:

We overtook a small group of power rangers on sportsbikes going slower than us and around the next corner there was mud all over the road from a muck spreader coming out of the field and we all piled into a hedge! The power rangers were able to stop because they were riding within the speed limit.

SApart fromwhen the crash occured we wer riding within the speed limit and well withng the limits of the road allowing for such hazards.

If were were going flat oput you would be right - but we were not going flat out avoiding a hazard on the road would have been easay

Wow! Is this thread still going? Are we still at the stage where we all agree that driver/rider training is good and that driving/riding slower is safer (except TJ)?

{EDIT} ooops, forgot the smiley
😉

Wow! Is this thread still going?

Of course it is, TJ is on it.

TJ no one is disputing the whole countersteering/experience point.

However your complete inability to see the issue that speed [b]can[/b] have demonstrates nicely some of the issues detailed in the report I linked.

when the crash occured we wer riding within the speed limit

Convenient addition to the story!!!! 🙄

Molgrips, in relation to noise a bike revs higher, so for arguements sake, at 40mph if im on my mises' 749r, in third gear, the engine will be at approx 4.5k revs and that will generally keep it on he bottom of the first power band but it will rev upto 13k, in the car, i might be in 3rd gear too, but at 2.5k revs, hence the noise. Granted race cans don;t help, the majority of which, provided they are not stamped 'illegal for road use' are perfectly legal for the road, its at the discression of the mot tester about noise.

Having read through this, for possibly only the second time I find myself tending to agree with TJ. I'm not a biker. My brother is, and has been since he was old enough to own a bike. Last year he was nearly killed when he clipped the back of a car at 20mph which pitched him into the path of a car doing 50. This has no bearing on the topic in question, just to point out that I'm not ignorant of motorcycles or how they're ridden. I'm going to draw a parallel with driving a car quickly. I don't drive a sportscar, I drive a medium sized saloon with a diesel engine, but, like TJ says, it's quite possible to drive at a speed that other road users would consider excessive without actually exceeding posted speed limits. I regularly find myself behind drivers in modern cars pootleing along at an indicated 40, (approx 36mph), where the limit is 60, and braking into corners that even in my Octavia I can take at 50. There's nothing excessive about how I'm driving, but the perception of others when I go into a bend at that sort of speed with no brake lights coming on would probably be 'bloody lunatic'. I have the road knowledge and skill of around thirty years driving and I know my limits and where I can use speed safely and where not to. I've only gone off a road twice, once when a rear tyre blew out on my dad's old Capri, and once last winter on an icy road at 10mph. Neither resulted in damage, 'cos, like TJ, I know when it's stupid to use [i]excessive[/i] speed for the prevailing road conditions.

That sums it up perfectly. Why should an innocent party's life be potentially forfeited for another person's selfish thrill.

because the car is king. even on a cycling forum.

That sums it up perfectly. Why should an innocent party's life be potentially forfeited for another person's selfish thrill.

If we are talking about local communities who need to get to and access their remote homes in that area fine.

However I think its safe to say that all people entering such roads know that it (and other similar roads) are expected to be respected first and dangerous in many ways (be it gradient, weather/conditions and you need to be concentrating more nevermind other drivers).

What do you hand-ringers propose next? reduce all NSL's down to 30mph's?

There are roads in the wider area that are more challenging to any driver. Whats the name of the road that comes over from Holmfirth and joins halfway along Woodhead? Part of the drop down has an exposed/severe drop with no barrier and of course no street lights.

Stop thinking that its dangerous because lots of people are having head-on's with reckless drivers.

Theres more to it than that.

If you want to start nannying people more then where do you stop? If you were born or grew up in a rural or semi-rural area you'll know all about these roads. Average camera's are a good idea on straight roads- NOT on winding roads where you shouldn't be checking your speedo.

[s]Idiot-city people[/s] 🙄 On reflection thats abit harsh. If you haven't been around such roads all your life you really don't know the true ins and outs. The majority of serious accidents/deaths occur on country roads- not because they are race tracks but because of the higher requirements they place on average drivers just to get along them safely.

CountZero, we are all arguing against excessive speed.

ChrisA - it's not the noise. It's the sudden appearing in the rear view mirror then barrelling past really close to your car when there's a car coming the other way - that's what I was referring to. Even if there's room, doesn't mean it's very nice.

Imagine going to the supermarket and running around grabbing stuff from infront of people, barging past really close to people's faces shouting RAAAAAAAARR!!! at the top of your lungs. You wouldn't do it.. so why do it on the roads? I'm sure TJ and other responsible motorcyclists don't do it, but some do. Some drivers do it too, and it's downright antisocial.

But that is not the issue on this thread.

No offence molgrips but are you one of them people that occasionally start to speed up once I draw parallel to them on NSL's?

....purely as you think I shouldn't be driving soo fast and reckless to overtake so you'll teach me a 'lesson'?

What do you hand-ringers propose next? reduce all NSL's down to 30mph's?

I'm not hand-wringing. We've established that the NSL is not the issue here anyway because almost everyone completely ignores it. All I want is for people to relax, take it easy and stop people c*nts on public roads. People crash for many reasons, but one is wanting to go fast and f*ck about.

I grew up in the countryside, and these windy A roads are the biggest roads in the area. Loads of people overtaking in stupid places and risking their lives, and lots of accidents, and lots of deaths.

To illustrate, one big one fairly recently was a lorry driver going through a hamlet just north of Leominster on the A49; there's a sharp (for the road) left hander then right hander, 40mph speed limit. The lorry was apparently going too fast and lost control, hitting another lorry and careering into a house which it partially demolished and set on fire. Both drivers died I think. Amazingly fortunately, the family who lived in the house were on holiday. The road had to be resurfaced, the fire was that bad.

public roads have speed limits for a reason, if you want to go faster than your driving skills will let you , then do a track day.

Drive down Snake Pass at 40mph (nevermind 60+) and you a slight slip of concentration could mean you are on the wrong side of the road or clip a kerb etc.

Maybe I'm missing something here but I'm struggling to think of many bad driving that I've witnessed on roads around rural Yorkshire.

I can tell you the ones I've seen on urban and motorways though- daily observations.

Drive down Snake Pass at 40mph (nevermind 60+) and you a slight slip of concentration could mean you are on the wrong side of the road or clip a kerb etc.

Ah yes.. good point. Now, if you do make a mistake or your concentration slips, if you are going slower you'll have more time to correct! I've made many mistakes whilst driving, but because I am doing everything with plenty of margin for error, I have managed to recover without incident so far.

I saw and still see tons of examples of terrible driving on the roads of Wales and the Marches. It's mostly people overtaking when they either can't see or there's something coming the other way anyway. And it's not all grannies doing 40mph either. If you drive the NSL you'll get people forcing their way past almost as much.

Ah yes.. good point. Now, if you do make a mistake or your concentration slips, if you are going slower you'll have more time to correct!

At 40 you'd still be firmly on the wrong side of the road there. In winter it can be truly evil.

Basically around there it can catch ANY driver out. Some roads up and around Huddersfield are 2nd (and even 1st) gear climbs on a few bends/roads.

Basically the technical equal-to singletrack.

Can anyone explain countersteering to me? I have no idea what it is, although have survived a year on a motorbike with only one crash. Someone once tried to explain it to me for use on my roadbike once, but they failed.

The correct line on a motorcycle places you in a different place in the road so you can see further. One of the common newb mistakes is to use the same lines as a car.

Just reading through the thread as these ones are always amusing... Without wishing to get drawn into the overall debate it's fair to say that the second sentence above falls into the trap of tarring all drivers with the same brush (which, it appears, it is unacceptable to do to motorcyclists...).

A good driver in a car will be positioning the vehicle to maximise the 'safe' speed - which may be by maximsing visibility or by optimising the line. A motorbike has the advantage that the rider can position his/her self to a greater 'extreme' due to the width of the vehicle, but it's simply an extension of the same principle that a car driver should be applying.

Both will also be considering other factors about the respective performance and abilities of their vehicles in selecting their speed.

And yes, I do ride a motorbike as well as drive a car.

Certainly breaking the 60 mph limit at times

Apart fromwhen the crash occured we wer riding within the speed limit

Huh?

LHS - Member

"The belief that just because you are a better driver or motorcyclist than the "weekend warriors" you can be safer at speed is just idiotic. "

LHS - Member

"I think TJs points ring true that, if you are a more experienced/skilled biker you can go round a corner quicker and safer than a weekend born again warrior"

Hmm.

hora - Member
...However I think its safe to say that all people entering such roads know that it (and other similar roads) are expected to be respected first and dangerous in many ways (be it gradient, weather/conditions and you need to be concentrating more nevermind other drivers)....

There are also children using country roads. It's how they get from place to place.

Northwind, you need to copy and paste the whole post, not take it out of context. But good contribution none the less! 🙄

Oh dear - one or two people seem to have trouble reading.

The scenario I described where someone crashed following us we had gone over 60 mph at points duri8ng the ride. However on the stretch where the crash occurred we were at around 50 mph.
Clearly stated in my post but ignored. So the crash occurred at well under the speed limit and a speed that was quite reasonable for the stretch of road. Unfortunatly the guy who crashed had such poor skills that he couldn't ride safely even at a moderate speed. focussing on speed will not stop such accidents.

Oh dear - one or two people seem to have trouble reading.

Yeah.. you for starters 🙂

TJ you said he was going to fast for his skills, so how would him slowing down not help?

I know what you are trying to say, that more skills are needed - that is absolutely true and obvious. But reduced speeds are also an important part of that.

The problem is that people base their judgements on experiences. So many people will tend to think that they are fine when they are in fact taking risks. They will only learn the hard way, when they do have a crash. By which point it could be too late.

Do you see what I am getting at? It's about psychology, both of the individual and of society. Many motorcyclists and drivers think that they can drive as fast as they like because they are great drivers/riders. But until you meet an obstacle round a blind bend you won't realise how much of a risk you are taking. This is the same for drivers and riders.

See that show Britain's Worst Driver for examples of what I am talking about.

Society comes into it because it's deemed acceptable by the riding and driving community to speed and mess about on roads. And I must say, all the evidence points to motorcyclists being worse than drivers on the whole in this respect...

I ride a motorbike, enjoy doing it and, having put in the effort, I ride to a reasonable standard. I mostly use the bike for commuting (in all weathers) which helps to improve/maintain skills.

I like making progress on twisty roads, but get most satisfaction from doing it smoothly and well rather than screaming down straights at high speed and over-taking where I can't see ahead. I don't ride a sports bike because I don't see the point on typical UK roads -A dual-sport/large 'supermoto' style bike makes a lot more sense and point-to-point (without going stupid on straight roads)on bumpy, winding roads are at least as effective as bikes with twice the amount of power, especially when wet.

A lot of people have extremely powerful machines (mainly for bragging rights?), but don't do that much riding which, in my view, is not a good combination.

Some bikers do seem happy to overtake and corner with little visibility and pass between oncoming cars at speed, but to me it seems unnecessary.

Had I ridden a motorbike 10 years ago I possibly could have been a liability, but experience, age and responsibility have made a difference (it applies equally to mtb...).

The Cat & Fiddle is a great road, but a twisting mountain road needs to be travelled with care.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush.

On a good day 'bikers' roads are hellish places to be. Too many Rossi wannabees riding like total tools.

LHS "Northwind, you need to copy and paste the whole post, not take it out of context. But good contribution none the less! "

Heh, that old ruse? "You've caught me saying something stupid! Quick, claim it's out of context". That's the first post in full. The second post in full is pretty incoherent but doesn't change the statements you've made one bit.

You're obviously just up for an argument so best to just move on. 🙄

Thanks for not replying to my request for help with countersteering, I tried it on the way home and sped off through a hedge in the wrong direction and am now typing from a hospital bed.

[i]this post was uploaded via ****tphone[/i]

sorry AA

countersteering - you already do it withut thinking.

To turn left you push the left end of the bar away from you. This does two things -1) it moves the bikes contact patch to the right causing it to topple to the left. 2) by gyroscopic precession the twist of the wheel to the right makes it lean to the left.

so by turning the bars to the right you initiate a lean to the left. Its the lean that makes the bike corner - it generates camber thrust ( the thing that makes a rolled cone go round in circles)

Once the turn is initiated the steering returns to the straight ahead position. to return to straight you do the opposite - so to strighten up from this left turn you steer left ( pushing the right bar) and the bike stands up and goes straight on.

Counter steering is how all motorcycles work. What people generally mean is to do this more consciously - with a firm hard shove on the bar - it makes the bike drop into the turn more quickly.

Someone once tried to persuade our Physics class in 6th form college that you had to turn the bars the opposite way you wanted to steer first, on a pushbike. We laughed at him... It is actually possible to turn a pushbike without doing this, but if you want to turn fast it does actually help if you whip it 6" the other way first...

Went passed a crashed biker this morning on my ride to work. Looked bad as he was in a neck brace, with a back board going into the back of an ambulance. Take care