[Closed] Casual racists

Anyone who lets a colleague/friend etc make a racist comment either needs to man up or find new friends.

There are certain exceptions to this, where I find you have to give a bit of leeway Hora.

My best mate would be considered rascist by a lot of people. For example he constantly refers to 'rag-heads'. But then he is just back from the Afghan (again). And as he's referring to the people who've been enthusiastically trying to kill him, I tend to let it slide

She was massively offended as apparently she prefers to be called 'coloured' which I thought was classed as racist.

I got pulled up a little while ago for using the word "coloured" as it's apparently racist. Made me vexed because I used it specifically to try and avoid using any potentially derogatory language.

Then I got to thinking, you know, whilst I don't agree that country contractions are inherently racist (compare ****, Brit, Scot, Pole, Iti, etc), I'm happy to avoid using them as I understand that some people find them offensive (rightly or not). However, when we're getting into the realms of "black / brown / white / coloured" now being offensive, I really don't think the the problem here lies with the speaker. What next, differently pigmented? We're running out of words.

Fundamentally, we're heading towards a situation where words are becoming viewed as 'racist' purely because they're used to describe a demographic and [i]racists speak the same language we do.[/i] So we start saying (for example) "coloured" to attempt to safely refer to someone non-caucasian, then the racists start using the same word, hey presto it's suddenly a 'racist' term and we've to find something else. It's a race condition we can't win unless we force racists to start speaking Esperanto or something.

Lunacy.

My best mate would be considered rascist by a lot of people. For example he constantly refers to 'rag-heads'. But then he is just back from the Afghan (again). And as he's referring to the people who've been enthusiastically trying to kill him, I tend to let it slide

Raghead is a derogatory (and generalising) term. Its not racist per-se. Its an insult just as being referred to as an 'Infidel' is (which is more common than you think)...

My wife would still be upset if someone used the term chinky in her presence even if they didn't mean it in a derogatory way. Up until last night she had never heard the term before

Sorry, why would she be upset about a term she's never heard before? Am I missing something?

Junkyard - Member
Challenging racism and other wrongs is some sort of Imperilaism and until we are perfect we should do nothing - christ did you take a hyperbole pill this morning? Its a huge leap you have made there and there may be some middle ground between doing nothing and Imperialsitically impossing our standards on the world due to arrogance- you are aware of basic universal human rights or is that just some more arrogance?

I guess we couldn't agree twice in 24 hours then JY!! 😉 {although we are probably more than 50% on the same wave length!)

No, I didn't take a hyperbole pill. I was merely responding to DD's direct and your more subtle criticism. The one area of consistency throughout this thread seems to be t[b]he notion that racism is "context specific."[/b] My point is that our, for the sake of argument "British", context may well be very different from others. I have tested this idea with the John Terry case and different countries view each of the three words (FBC) with different degrees of distaste for example. What "is" arrogant is the idea that we have the monopoly on defining universal human rights including what is and isn't racist. The logical extension of this idea was the concept of imposing Christianity around the world via missionaries. And I can guess your views on that! To return to the original point of the thread - IMO the use of the words Chinky and **** is, in the UK context, unacceptable and worthy of nothing other than contempt. However, seeing the same word (Pak/****) as a headline in the Times of India is something entirely different.

Sorry, why would she be upset about a term she's never heard before? Am I missing something?

She's heard and been called that term before, she just hasn't heard anyone use it to refer to a Chinese take away. But due to the meaning she associates it, she would be upset.

What "is" arrogant is the idea that we have the monopoly on defining universal human rights including what is and isn't racist

Well given our travails with the european courts and prisoners voting I , for one, will not be arguing that we alone can define these things.
Not sure anyone has argued one country can have they?

FWIW I am no fan of article 17 but I bet you are 😉

However a broad church of political and international members probably can find things that [ nearly all] agree are universal.
I am not sure that having international rights means we must inevitable [ logically] impose it with force, invasion and conquest though. We could try just persuade them with our arguments - unless they have oil, dont like us, we can definetly win and they are not mates with Russia or China.

Everything is context with language and also intent.]As noted above th eterm black was deemd to be offensive but no offense was meant

flange - Member
.....she prefers to be called 'coloured' which I thought was classed as racist. Live and learn as they say...

And my west indian wife, get's very offended at being called "coloured", she's "black" dont you know, and don't forget it...

Like I said a few pages ago and someone said this morning, educate yourself about who and what is deemed offensive and react politely. Different people and contexts could lead to different things being acceptable although of course there are overriding commonalities/generisms.

Coloured refers to a hue/colouring in- a really weird term IMO.

Good JY, then we are back in agreement.

BTW, which Article 17 - the Univeral HR one ie, property rights? Three years ago, I shared a platform in Africa with Hernando de Soto, and found his ideas interesting re the role of property rights and emerging market development. So your [i]assumption[/i] in this case, may well be correct!! 😉

The people who call Chinese takeaways Chinky's. Would you use that term infront of a Chinese person?

Doubt it. Stop trolling and/or grow up.

If someone says 'lets have a chinky'- they are usually mono-browed, anglo-saxon of low-education trying to belittle someone.

grum - Member
"What a complicated world we live in." - V8ninety
It's not really that difficult is it?

We've had people, deliberately trying to avoid offending people, actually causing massive offence by using the term black and/or coloured.

I've led someone to believe that I've got an issue with the 'oppression of the white man' just because I was trying to say racism has more to do with the ignorance than the skin colour of the racist individual.

But it's not complicated, no.

I use the terms "fat", "obese", "overweight" and occasionally "lard-ass", "blimp" etc to describe people but out of politeness I wouldn't do so in their presence. Do I need to grow up?

You need to realise that someone fat can diet and that someone chinese can do nothing about this fact
You can form judgements on folk based on things they "choose" to do if you wish but, in general, if you wont say it to their face its probably better to not say it behind their back.

Re low education

They probably think that , on average, the IQ of racists is lower than the IQ of non racists
Interestingly recent reseacrh links racism, conservatism and prejudice to low IQ

The research finds that children with low intelligence are more likely to hold prejudiced attitudes as adults. These findings point to a vicious cycle, according to lead researcher Gordon Hodson, a psychologist at Brock University in Ontario. Low-intelligence adults tend to gravitate toward socially conservative ideologies, the study found. Those ideologies, in turn, stress hierarchy and resistance to change, attitudes that can contribute to prejudice, Hodson wrote in an email to LiveScience..... there is reason to believe that strict right-wing ideology might appeal to those who have trouble grasping the complexity of the world.

"Socially conservative ideologies tend to offer structure and order," Hodson said, explaining why these beliefs might draw those with low intelligence. "Unfortunately, many of these features can also contribute to prejudice."

to be clear it also said this

There are multiple examples of very bright conservatives and not-so-bright liberals, and many examples of very principled conservatives and very intolerant liberals," Hodson said.

Nosek gave another example to illustrate the dangers of taking the findings too literally.

"We can say definitively men are taller than women on average," he said. "But you can't say if you take a random man and you take a random woman that the man is going to be taller. There's plenty of overlap."

Maccy's?

It shows that you have no empathy on a basic level at the least. Just because its routine for you to call it a chinky because others past the word onto you doesn't mean you should perpetuate this further.

If you'd only use this term in your immediate social/family circle then it shows you have a 'us and them' attitude to a different race/nationality.

Rather than froth at the gills over crass naivety I'm also out.

When I saw the title "Casual Racists", I was expecting a thread about premiership football players and their fans ...

No thats ok, he was only repeating what he heard- apparently the black footballer racially abusing himself..

You need to realise that someone fat can diet and that someone chinese can do nothing about this fact

I always refer to a Chinese meal as "a Chinese", in the same way as I refer to an Indian meal as "an Indian" (as in: "Going out for an Indian").

"Chinky" is a racist term. Get over it and stop using it.

End of.

[s]Rather than froth at the gills over crass naivety[/s] [b]because I can't form an argument to justify the casual insults I've been bandying about, which show 'a lack of empathy on a basic level' in themselves,[/b] I'm also out.

FTFY.

I always refer to a Chinese meal as "a Chinese", in the same way as I refer to an Indian meal as "an Indian" (as in: "Going out for an Indian").

Considering what you're served is a stereotyping construct for the Brits, rather than a dish that is actually eaten in any of these countries that's a pretty narrow minded view of other cultures and their culinary traditions.

I think the correct phrase is "going out for a meal of Asian origin made to fit British stereotypes"

It's not a "pretty narrow minded view of other cultures and their culinary traditions. ", it's a way of referring to available food.

Don't be a plonker. 😉

She's heard and been called that term before, she just hasn't heard anyone use it to refer to a Chinese take away. But due to the meaning she associates it, she would be upset.

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

Like I said a few pages ago and someone said this morning, educate yourself about who and what is deemed offensive and react politely.

The problem there is that, with the best will in the world, what's offensive to one person is preferred by another, and any established 'correct' terminology changes with the phase of the moon (as ably demonstrated on this thread).

A better solution might be for the terminally offended and the offended-by-proxy people to stop taking offence where clearly none was intended. I'm more than happy to try and adapt the language I use in order to minimise any possible misunderstandings, but there has to be some benefit of the doubt coming the other way too. Ie, I'll try not to be offensive, you try not to be offended. Ok?

I wouldn't use the word 'chinkie' in reference to a take-away food outlet, but if I did, it'd be because it was a contraction / nickname for 'Chinese' in the same way that 'Jonathan' might become 'Jonno,' rather than because I harboured a deep-seated hatred of our oriental-originated bretheren.(*) I suspect that the vast majority of people who do use the term feel much the same (and again, we've seen people here go "sorry, I didn't realise, won't do it again").

Deadlydarcy of this very parish referred to me as 'Cuggie' the other day, shall I conclude that he's felist and write a stern letter of outrage to the Daily Mail?

(* - incidentally; is there a big problem with anti-Chinese racism? I don't think that's anything I've ever come across, aside from the typical childish nonsense back when I was at school. I always thought the British Chinese and the British Caucasians, generally, liked each other and got on well.)

Don't be a plonker.

Just trying to fit in. 🙂

Bazinga.

A better solution might be for the terminally offended and the offended-by-proxy people to stop taking offence where clearly none was intended. I'm more than happy to try and adapt the language I use in order to minimise any possible misunderstandings, but there has to be some benefit of the doubt coming the other way too. Ie, I'll try not to be offensive, you try not to be offended. Ok?

After 7 pages, still think its not complicated?

Yup. Try, in general to be respectful of other people and not to cause offence by being insensitive. If you get it wrong live and learn. I'm sure this is what most people do, though some on here would call it PC gone mad.

Gonna trot out this Stewart Lee quote again.

It really worries me that 84% of this audience agrees with that statement, because the kind of people that say "political correctness gone mad" are usually using that phrase as a kind of cover action to attack minorities or people that they disagree with. I'm of an age that I can see what a difference political correctness has made. When I was four years old, my grandfather drove me around Birmingham, where the Tories had just fought an election campaign saying, "if you want a **** for a neighbour, vote Labour," and he drove me around saying, "this is where all the ****s and the coons and the jungle bunnies live." And I remember being at school in the early 80s and my teacher, when he read the register, instead of saying the name of the one asian boy in the class, he would say, "is the black spot in," right? And all these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst. And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made. It's a complete lie that allows the right, which basically controls media now, and international politics, to make people on the left who are concerned about the way people are represented look like killjoys. And I'm sick, I'm really sick-- 84% of you in this room that have agreed with this phrase, you're like those people who turn around and go, "you know who the most oppressed minorities in Britain are? White, middle-class men." You're a bunch of idiots.

+1

Yup. Try, in general to be respectful of other people and not to cause offence by being insensitive. If you get it wrong live and learn.

A lovely, simple way of living life, and it everyone did this, it wouldn't be so complicated. But they don't, so it is...

You're a bunch of idiots.

Nicely sums up the majority of the thread really.

"you know who the most oppressed minorities in Britain are? White, middle-class men." You're a bunch of idiots.

I don't feel oppressed. Should I?

Isolationist thinking. You know for centuries we've travelled the world as a people, traded, robbed, hung out with and inter-married.

Then there are those who prefer the village mentality and stay landlocked except for 2weeks a year building their 'Castle Britannia'.

Hora, you have completely misunderstood that entire quote. And that's coming from a monobrowed low educated Anglo Saxon...

Cougar, I unilaterally withdraw the "Cuggie" comment if it upset you. I am wringing the very blood out of my hands. 🙁

Calling a piece of food a chinky is not a problem IMO. If its then no more trips to the chip shop for fish & chips 🙁

Apparently fat people are now no longer obese too, or so NHS staff are told...

Nicely sums up the majority of the thread really.

I disagree, and so do the moderators. we have of course been keeping a close eye on things but we are genuinely impressed with the level of debate and how it hasn't exploded considering the difficulty and sensitivity of the subject matter. Yes, there are strong opinions and we've had to warn couple of people quietly in the background but on the whole, this is a good thread.

Sorry Grum, but I grew up in exactly the same context as Stewart Lee and while agreeing with him on the trends, completely disagree with (1) the success identified is due to political correctness, that (2) PC = institutional politeness in an exclusive sense, or that (3) it is only attributable to left wing politics. Other than that, some pretty good points there...

Perhaps many/some of the white, middle class idiots that he refers to align themselves with a different part of the Establishment (that he seems to deride) but live by the same moral code ie, "love thy neighbour as thyself"? 😉 Same conclusion, but different moral drivers - no need to be exclusive about it! That's another form of -ism, surely?

A better solution might be for the terminally offended and the offended-by-proxy people to stop taking offence where clearly none was intended. I'm more than happy to try and adapt the language I use in order to minimise any possible misunderstandings, but there has to be some benefit of the doubt coming the other way too. Ie, I'll try not to be offensive, you try not to be offended. Ok?

[i]A million times this. If we all thought like this, we would all get along a little better. Too many people seem to strive to be offended, like its some kind of hobby or something.[/i]

^^This. At the end of the day, pretty much anything anyone says to or about anyone could be construed as "offensive". While we shouldn't go out of our way to deliberately offend, it's also worth remembering that we are human beings, we will sometimes get stuff wrong, and 99.9999% of the time, it is easily fixed with a simple "oh, sorry about that" (note not some ridiculous humble grovel) and remembering for next time.

I really struggle with the "professionally offended", especially when it isn't even them that are offended, it's on behalf of someone else. As my grandad used to say "was I talking to you or about you? No, then mind your own business".

Professionally offended is just a lazty slur directed at an illdefined group to give you impunity to be rude about them.
Its madness to think if the slur is not about me I should ignore it- well it was not my bike they were stealing so i just sat amnd watched 😕
I may as well argue there is the professionally offensive who try to offend everyone they meet including your mother. Its adds nothing because it is a fictional charachter who probably reports everything to the thought police 😕

A better solution might be for the terminally offended and the offended-by-proxy people to stop taking offence where clearly none was intended.

I'm more than happy to try and adapt the language I use in order to minimise any possible misunderstandings, but there has to be some benefit of the doubt coming the other way too. Ie, I'll try not to be offensive, you try not to be offended. Ok?

Cougar, I unilaterally withdraw the "Cuggie" comment if it upset you. I am wringing the very blood out of my hands.

Just not good enough. I am, of course, mortally offended. I accept apologies in most major forms of alcohol.

Its a lazy stereotype that I have yet to meet in the real world

In which case, it doesn't apply to anyone, so no-one's affected by it. Everyone's a winner.

I am sure that will happen if everyone knew everyone was trying their best to not be offensive - do you think this is what we have now?

What we have now is a matter of debate (oh, hey!). But perhaps if by default we gave people the benefit of the doubt rather than just knee-jerking there'd be fewer issues?

As I said, I don't believe there's no 'one size fits all' answer; read back in this thread, we've anecdotal tales of different people objecting to and preferring different terms. What's acceptable to one is offensive to another. It's a minefield. If we could just establish a precedent which says "these words are universally ok, these are not" it'd be a lot simpler. But we can't, so we have to rely on context, intent, and common sense. Which is where some people fall down, it seems.

What's acceptable to one is offensive to another. It's a minefield. If we could just establish a precedent which says "these words are universally ok, these are not" it'd be a lot simpler. But we can't, so we have to rely on context, intent, and common sense. Which is where some people fall down, it seems.

with that kinda post we're in danger of finishing the debate 😯

oh hang on, this is STW

What we have now is a matter of debate (oh, hey!). But perhaps if by default we gave people the benefit of the doubt rather than just knee-jerking there'd be fewer issues?

There will always be some people who set out deliberately to offend, whether that's out of ignorance, prejudice or a desire to be noticed. And I'm not talking exclusively about racism etc.

The majority of us offend people by accident. That's all it is.

There are alot of stubborn people on here who seem to avoid the fact that 'chinky' isn't an acceptable label to use in any context.

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cougar + 1

Try not to be offensive. Try not to take offence where none's intended.
And try to recognise those who make a career out of doing the opposite, like the ex-comedian Stewart "[i]You're a bunch of idiots[/i]" Lee.

There will always be some people who set out deliberately to offend

Sure. But as you say, the majority don't. So really, we should be assuming innocent until proven guilty.

There are alot of stubborn people on here who seem to avoid the fact that 'chinky' isn't an acceptable label to use in any context.

I don't think there's anyone doing that. Though there's been a few who didn't realise.