Just another attack on the poor.
Several people have mentioned that universal free banking should be a requirement of a cash-free society. That seems more forward looking than trying to insist everywhere takes cash.
Would be interesting to see what happens with drug dealers if cash was to die out.
I genuinely can't remember the last time I used cash for anything, so from a personal point of view it would make no difference to me if it disappeared.
There are definitely plenty of people out there to whom it is important though, particularly the less privileged.
Would be interesting to see what happens with drug dealers if cash was to die out.
Well they might end up paying tax on their earnings, although the low level guys probably don’t cross the threshold anyway.
Just need to set themselves up as a ‘barber’ or ‘home cleaner’ or something that gives them a plausible reason to have many payments.
Plus they’ll be able to charge a price commensurate with the goods, rather than splitting their product into amounts worth 20/50/etc pounds.
Ive got no real issue with drug users or their dealers; unless they steal from other people to pay for it.
Attack on the poor is only if you want it to be. Do you know what is an attack on the poor? Cash.
One of the best ways to tell how nice an area is, is by looking at the cash machines. If it gives out fivers, it’s a bad area. If it claims to give divers but never has any in stock it’s worse. If it charges you for withdrawals, it’s a really bad area. People with little access to transportation are stuck with their only access to cash being atms that charge, and when they only take out a small amount each week because it’s all they have, they get a lot more of the fixed charges.
Got £9.82 in your account and go to a machine that doesn’t do fivers or has run out? No food for you.
Poor but in work? Most likely to have a job where you can’t just nip to the bank at lunch time
Not to mention being poor often means living somewhere with a higher chance of being victim of burglary or mugging. Keep your months wages in the sock draw in untraceable and uninsurable cash?
If any thread was to be nominated as the one which demonstrates what STW is all about, this one would be a front runner...
There are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people across the country who use cash everyday, who don't have access to internet banking, who get paid in cash. They might be older people, they might not be as mobile as most, they may not have a local bank, they might not have a smart phone.
Cash works. It has continued to work for many, many years and should have a place in society regardless of the tech savvy...
Fortunately here in the Vaterland people are very cashless averse.
I very rarely use my card (partly because the banks charge 31c for each transaction.... regardless of whether I'm buying something, taking money out or even funds being deposited into my account!). I'll only use it if I've not got the cash on me. Generally I'll go to the bank (my specific bank as using other ATMs costs me about €6... it's like banking in the UK 1990s style) and draw out a grand and visit the bank again once it's depleted.
Have recently been getting lots of cash jobs. I like cash jobs.
Fortunately here in the Vaterland people are very cashless averse.
I very rarely use my card (partly because the banks charge 31c for each transaction…. regardless of whether I’m buying something, taking money out or even funds being deposited into my account!). I’ll only use it if I’ve not got the cash on me. Generally I’ll go to the bank (my specific bank as using other ATMs costs me about €6… it’s like banking in the UK 1990s style) and draw out a grand and visit the bank again once it’s depleted.
Have recently been getting lots of cash jobs. I like cash jobs.
Sorry - to me all that sounds like a advert as to why I'm all for not having to bother with cash!
Sorry – to me all that sounds like a advert as to why I’m all for not having to bother with cash!
When I was back in the UK I used my card for everything as it was so easy. Coffees, beers, the tube, everything.... Say 5-10 transactions a day.
My bank statement for one month was three pages long!
If I were to use my card for all transactions here in Germany the charges would be crazy!
Just to pick up on the internet banking point, not everyone can use it. I used to be able to but now can't.
I eventually joined the modern world and got it set up, used it for a couple of years.
Then recently my bank changed the login procedure, instead of just a password I now put the password in and it then sends a code to my mobile telephone.
I have no phone signal. By the time I can get anywhere to get one and got back again the bank website has timed out. I can use it at work, signal in town, but there must be loads of people in rural areas who just can't do it.
Anyway, I pay for most stuff by card but cash is just so useful for small, non-business transactions. For example my running club, put a quid in the pot each training session. Simple. Sold something on Ebay or whatever? Cash on collection, pretty secure, you've got the cash, very hard to do any scams. And no you can't do a bank transfer (see above)
These days I just log into the app on my phone using my fingerprint. Done. Damn sight easier than searching for my deposit book and/or making a trip into a branch.
Serious question.
Say you get mugged. Mugger takes your card and demands PIN. You have the option to tell him rather than be stabbed. Once everything uses fingerprints what's to stop the real nasty muggers chopping a finger off to use it? Sometimes less secure is safer
Cash is so handy.
Easiest way to transfer funds.
Is it bollocks.
Buy something expensive for cash, see how convenient that is. A car or something.
I think there is one of those divides on this issue. Those who work in corporate environments seem ecstatic and can't wait (OMG money is such a pain blah blah), the rest not so much.
It's a favourite telly box news feature thing about every fives years or so with jubilant reporters, banking people and government officials claiming a glorious new dawn is imminent.
They seem so desperate to get the public on side.
Digital cash can be traced by authorities.
Cash will always be popular among certain groups.
Last time I used cash was November 2019
GrahamS if you report the card missing to your bank it ceases to work and won’t allow Apple Pay either.
Once everything uses fingerprints what’s to stop the real nasty muggers chopping a finger off to use it? Sometimes less secure is safer
I don’t have a fingerprint scanner on my phone, maybe they’ll just cut my face off instead...
Retina scanners are the way to go but it's felt that folk would be less keen to put their face up to an ATM/Card Reader than to use their fingers so it's always been ruled out.
I think you’ve been watching too many Guy Ritchie movies 🤣Once everything uses fingerprints what’s to stop the real nasty muggers chopping a finger off to use it?
if you report the card missing to your bank it ceases to work and won’t allow Apple Pay either
Not claiming that hasn't happened, but there is no reason (either technical or fraud) for that to happen, just poor quality systems at a given bank
I think there is one of those divides on this issue. Those who work in corporate environments seem ecstatic and can’t wait (OMG money is such a pain blah blah), the rest not so much.
What are you jabbering on about, it's been a natural transition to a cashless society driven by society.
With the age of technology has brought convenience and the people are using that convenience more and more where it's available to use, no ones forced people to do it.
This is not some corporate conspiracy by the banks to make more money, they're happy to use any form of cash be it physical or electronic. Yes there are overheads for managing physical but it still generates plenty of dosh through savings for example.
Over time when technology expands out to the harder to reach places at lower costs, everywhere will end up using electronic payments in some form.
Charities will learn to adapt as rightly pointed out historically cash was a big income stream.
Serious question.
Say you get mugged. Mugger takes your card and demands PIN. You have the option to tell him rather than be stabbed.
Um.... Tell him the wrong PIN?
Or are you going to go with him to the machine so he can try it?
Got £9.82 in your account and go to a machine that doesn’t do fivers or has run out? No food for you.
Surely in that circumstance you take the card out of the cash machine and then, instead, take it over to the till and use it to pay for £9.82 worth of food?
If any thread was to be nominated as the one which demonstrates what STW is all about, this one would be a front runner…
There are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people across the country who use cash everyday, who don’t have access to internet banking, who get paid in cash. They might be older people, they might not be as mobile as most, they may not have a local bank, they might not have a smart phone.
Cash works. It has continued to work for many, many years and should have a place in society regardless of the tech savvy…
All very simple to fix, Sweden managed it. You just create a basic bank account eg via the Post Office and give everyone an account. You then provide training etc to ensure no one is left out.
No one is suggesting just banning cash ovenight at the stroke of midnight and watching the old / poor starve (although watching the poor starve is many a Tory's wet dream).
Cash wont die out before the current generation of IT illiterate people have popped their cloggs so they can continue as they always have. It will become less convenient as more and more bank branches close down and more expensive as charges for ATM cash withdrawals become the norm, but they'll still be able to access cash.
And it will never be banned. It'll just phase out until it is no longer economically viable to have actual physical cash in circulation.
No one is suggesting just banning cash ovenight at the stroke of midnight and watching the old / poor starve (although watching the poor starve is many a Tory’s wet dream).
Depends where you draw the line of "poor", but old and technologically backwards is their core voter base, why would they let them die?
Sweden managed it. You just create a basic bank account eg via the Post Office
Post office no longer open new accounts and are slowly trying to 'shut down' all existing ones. It's part of the deal they did with the banks, postoffice cant operate as a bank it's self. One reason so many high st banks are shutting branches is that you can do 99% of the same stuff at your local post office now.
It's also a private company so the gov can't force people to use it. There are also lots of people who can't get or even apply for bank accounts - they used to be able to open a post office AC (no more).
Yeah but you can withdraw cash from the Post Office with your chip and pin card or Apple Pay/google pay from any bank, so access to cash is not restricted or reduced just because you cannot get an account with the PO any more. And of course cash back at supermarkets and other businesses. Again charges might apply in the future if they don't already do so.
As devices get smarter then the barriers for old folks will reduce. With things like smart watches you no longer have to have a smart phone (though most old folks do have smart phones these days) and anything with a microchip in it can potentially be used as a chip&pin device...eg a hearing aid, glasses, a ring with an embedded chip. the problem with old fogeys is not necessarily lack of confidence with modern tech, but moreso lack of trust of electronic money or banks in general. still alot of old fogeys hoarding their cash under their mattresses rather than trusting a bank with it. You can take a horse to water, but doesn't mean you can make it drink. Some people are just set in their ways and stubborn and are happy to struggle on regardless. That's their choice.
Even for those who can't get a bank account there are pre-paid cards you load up with cash in advance, so options are there for anyone so long as they actually have cash.
Sweden managed it.
Yup, it works really well here. You have a personnummer that is unique to you and tied to government services like tax and stuff. That gets you a bank account and all the electronic signing things like Swish and BankID.
Once you have those, you can just send money via your phone to anyone with a Swish account, or use a bank app. Need proof it is you? Use BankID to electronically sign stuff like bills, invoices, logins to websites, payments, etc.
I can't remember the last time I used cash here. It's actually quite difficult to do. I also can't remember the last time I needed it, even the events like house clearances/antik sales in small villages have Swish barcodes. Hell, our local farmer has one for people buying potatoes.
Serious question.
Say you get mugged. Mugger takes your card and demands PIN. You have the option to tell him rather than be stabbed.
The old 3 authentication factors joke:
- something they can steal (e.g. card)
- something they can beat out of you (e.g. PIN)
- something they can chop off you (e.g. finger)
There are also lots of people who can’t get or even apply for bank accounts – they used to be able to open a post office AC (no more).
You need an email address - without that it's almost impossible to open bank accounts. So even someone being paid in cash, only using cash to buy things etc - if they're IT illiterate or don't have access to a computer / wifi etc then they're at a disadvantage.
Libraries (the ones that the Tories haven't yet closed) are full of stories of staff helping people with basic IT, people who have no option other than to go to a library and use the computers there and that comes with obvious security implications for online banking.
Even for those who can’t get a bank account there are pre-paid cards you load up with cash in advance, so options are there for anyone so long as they actually have cash.
Yeah, I can see everyone going for that
Would you like to:
a) use the cash you have in your pocket
or
b) Faff about loading said cash onto a pre-paid card (how/where would you do this?) to suit the convenience of the banks
Sweden managed it.
Sweden have managed all kinds of things that will never ever become a reality in the UK
Surely in that circumstance you take the card out of the cash machine and then, instead, take it over to the till and use it to pay for £9.82 worth of food?
That assumes that the ATM card is also a debit card. If you are restricted on your banking choices there's a good chance that chip & PIN will not be available to you.
Faff about loading said cash onto a pre-paid card (how/where would you do this?) to suit the convenience of the banks
Our secondary school had a cash-free system (late 80's early 90's) called GiroVend. A very basic ID and payment system to save kids carrying cash around and being bullyed/mugged for it.
You put the card into a wall-mounted machine, paid in cash and the machine would add that to your card (like topping up an Oyster). You then used the card for school dinners and in the school shop which was just for basic stationery items, there was nothing in there more than a few quid.
If the card got nicked or lost, a stop would be put on it - you just went to the school shop or one of about half a dozen staff and reported it and it'd be stopped straight away and your balance loaded onto a replacement card (minus a small admin fee...)
A school is a small, closed environment. We're talking about an entire countries society here.
What you're talking about here would require some form of a national infrastructure.
All the banks are presently busy closing branches and removing ATM's, so where's this infrastructure coming from then? Who's supplying, installing and maintaining it?
Sweden *appears to be* a much more homogenous society than the UK, @willard might confirm or refute that.
I'm sure that there is poverty but the government and agencies seem much more willing to be inclusive rather than the "us and them" approach here. A lot of the barriers to having a bank account have been put in place to counter fraud and money laundering and the poor have been unintended losers in that battle.
Covid has accelerated the cashless society here but that still doesn't mean it's just around the corner, it could be twenty years or more away rather than forty or fifty. The elderly refuseniks will be dead and replaced by a generation who have either never used cash or it's just a distant memory.
I've the NHS tracking app installed on my phone. Scans QR codes at business premises as part of that. That technology is easy to transfer: scan a QR code and your Swish account is debited, bluetooth* or similar connects with the retailer's terminal and shows that it has occurred. Apple Pay requires you to be part of the existing banking network, it's just another portal to that so those who don't have bank accounts couldn't use it.
*I know bluetooth requires pairing - just an example.
Old fogeys? My father died 11 years ago (today as it happens) and would have been 98 this year. He could use an ATM and pay by card without any problems
Sweden *appears to be* a much more homogenous society than the UK
Apart from all the bombings.
https://www.ft.com/content/8cfa6212-4270-4962-a200-949a868c7cbe
meh, it's only a few and usually only on the west coast. It barely ever happens in Stockholm...
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/explosion-pa-sodermalm-i-stockholm
Sweden has issues. It's not perfect and there is a relatively open level of racism in some places (Skåne/Malmö and the Sverige Demokraterna for example). Generally though it's a moderate and accepting place. I think the big thing is that politics is consensus with a lot of alliances and agreements. No one party can really boss the place around, so deals have to be made. We still invest in things like infrastructure and, whilst I am sure there is corruption, I really do not think it is as visible or as widespread as in the UK right now.
Old fogeys? My father died 11 years ago (today as it happens) and would have been 98 this year. He could use an ATM and pay by card without any problems
If you have the mental capacity to deal with 8 different coins and 4 different notes, that arent obvious in how they relate to each other, then you can deal with chip and pin and contactless - as evidenced by probably a good majority of that age group.
And on the other hand we've all been stood waiting for what seems like an eternity at an ATM while Mable stares at the instructions on the screen as if she's being asked to operate the navigation system on a nuclear sub
Most of my older customers deal with chip and pin just fine. I do have a fair few though who swipe it across the top of the machine in the air (magnetic strip style) because they think that's how it works. I've one who thinks it's a little airplane and I do the "neeeooooowwwwww" sound in my head every time...... I've another that throws the card at the machine forcibly because he thinks it's the only way to get it to work rather than just waiting a second or two for it to register.....
All of these customers would struggle with online banking, they struggle with mobile phones.....
I had an older lady argue with me about depositing a cheque this am - she was convinced I could do it with out a paying in slip, digitally some how.... We can't. Spent 5min telling me I was wrong and asking how I could fix it, even asked me if she could deposit a cheque for her bank account in any bank other branch?!?! These people struggle with the normal stuff let alone the digital.
Mind you as others have said they won't be around In 20/30 years
So basically there are two types of people, those who think it's possible and those who will find any reason to tell you it could never work.
I literally only pay cash to my daughters ice skating coaches and its become a major pain in the arse. Everyone else has NFC machines, even the roll vans.
So basically there are two types of people, those who think it’s
possiblelikely and those whowill find any reason to tell you it could never worklive in the real world.
FTFY
Your daughters ice skating coaches don't have card machines? For gods sake, man! What kind of third world backwater do you live in?
@binners - I've been stood at cash machines trying to decipher the instructions because at that particular moment there's truly horrific glare coming off the screen. Not just me, those in front of me were also complaining about it.
Your point still stands, there are some for whom any interaction with "impersonal" technology is a trial. Designing systems that are genuinely intuitive is really hard, dealing with people making mistakes is even harder.
