Carrying a knife

@Mikel, I genuinely don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of exemption for machetes if you needs one for your job. I know a landscaper/gardener who clears a lot of rough scrub and uses one all the time. I'll ask him when I see him. I've also seen traditional hedgelayers round here using bilhooks and machetes so I hope some common sense has been applied.

Edit... above posts landed whilst typing this

It is therefore reasonable to identify those people who use it as a weapon & apply the law to them & not to the others.

What criteria would you suggest we base this "one law for one and another for another" approach on, and whom do you suppose we should empower to make that decision?

We already have this function. It's called a courtroom.

The statistics demonstrate who is using knives as weapons

The problem with statistics is that they can be slippery creatures. One could argue, for instance, that young black men are more likely to be caught with blades because an institutionally racist police force is actively targeting them as a profile for a stop & search. Possibly.

Back in the 80s, when my brother & I were in our early teens, my parents were on a lecture tour around the USA.

In Florida, my mum decided to buy presents for her darling sons. Two knuckle duster switchblades!

At Miami airport, she was allowed on the plane with said  items in her handbag. Their plane had a quick stopover in Houston en route to the west coast & passengers had the option to stay on or get off for a quick walkabout.

Dad stayed on. Mum got off to send some post cards. When she tried to get back on - Texas law was very different to Florida law! She was arrested & taken downtown and put in a cell with all the hos & junkies!

My poor father had to get off the plane & go downtown to bail her out.

My brother & I never did get the knives although she brought home the empty boxes which, tantalisingly, had detailed pictures of the knives on them.

it wouldn’t be impossible for a 101 call handler to inadvertently give out misleading advice. They aren’t legal experts.
...
At the very least, phone your local police, speak to an actual police officer, not civilian staff.

I broadly agree with your point, but I doubt that your "actual police officer" is any more likely to be a legal expert than a 101 call handler. What you want there is a solicitor, ideally a specialist one.

I'm no lawyer either, but the law doesn't seem particularly ambiguous here to me. You're hanging a potential jail sentence on "It was my grandfather's, your honour, it was just in the house. I'd never use it, I'm a nice middle-class white boy."

It's a nice thing, but I really wouldn't be having it readily accessible. Aside from anything else, is a burglar likely to find it?

The problem with statistics is that they can be slippery creatures. One could argue, for instance, that young black men are more likely to be caught with blades because an institutionally racist police force is actively targeting them as a profile for a stop & search. Possibly.

Difficult to argue with the stats if it’s based on the people convicted of doing the stabbing.
I’m playing devils advocate here, but the basic sense of the complaint is that unlike guns, which are weapons, knives are tools as well as weapons. If you accept the purpose of the law is to prevent people being stabbed, not to ban knives per se and if you are convicting people who have no intention of stabbing anybody then it is obviously a bad law.
EDIT the issue we have on this thread is that there are people who aren’t carrying knives as weapons but who nevertheless don’t actually have a reasonable argument for carrying them.

My brother & I never did get the knives although she brought home the empty boxes which, tantalisingly, had detailed pictures of the knives on them.

In the late 1980s I was in an army bomb disposal unit based in Ashford, Kent. One of the more routine jobs was 'milk runs'. Regularly doing a trawl of all the local police stations in Kent and East Sussex to collect surrendered or confiscated ammunition and explosives for disposal.

100s of kilos every year. Because of where we were, a big part of it was stuff bought back from France and Belgium by school day trips. We only took the chemicals/ammo/explosives - but got to see all the hardware lifted too.

Fireworks by the carrier bag full, shotgun cartridges, CS sprays, extendible batons, swords, knuckle dusters, tear gas guns, even on one occasion a 9mm rimfire shotgun  and a black powder cap & ball revolver (no licence required in France at the time). All taken from kids!

The cops and customs were wise to it, so they confiscated loads, but I'm sure lots got through!

Anyone found a definition of machete for me the new ban? I use one for clearing brambles in the garden. It's just a normal one rather than a zombie one tho. Seems there will be a handing in scheme in the summer but I can't actually find what they're calling a machete.

I broadly agree with your point, but I doubt that your “actual police officer” is any more likely to be a legal expert than a 101 call handler. What you want there is a solicitor, ideally a specialist one.

Agreed. But if you got an incident number and recorded their details at least there would be a record that you'd tried in good faith to do the right thing. But yes, a solicitor would be the safest option. Or just surrender it to the police.

"a zombie-style knife is any bladed weapon over eight inches in length with a plain cutting edge and sharp pointed end that also has either a serrated cutting edge, more than one hole in the blade, or multiple sharp points like spikes."

From here

billhooks

Never Mind those. We're talking about knives.

Never Mind those. We’re talking about knives.

OED

bill-hook, n.

A heavy thick knife or chopper with a hooked end, used for pruning, cutting brushwood, etc.

🙄

In the late 1980s I was in an army bomb disposal unit based in Ashford, Kent.

Random aside....

Templer?

I was JSIO there. Probably a little later than you - '91.

Sounds like machete and combo saws are now banned then. Pretty stupid.

For example: https://www.cyclaireshop.co.uk/gerber-compact-clearpath-machete?language=en&currency=GBP&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpPK9t8qyhAMVP5hQBh0SEAM3EAQYAiABEgLk9PD_BwE

Templer?

Yep. As a Sgt. There was a detachment of 621 EOD Coy (later Sqn) there. The det later moved to Shornecliffe.

I came back to 621 Sqn as an LE Capt in 2000- 2004 based at the Sqn HQ at RAF Northholt.

I made a good few mates from the Int Corps, whilst at Ashford some of whom I'm still in touch with.

Sounds like machete and combo saws are now banned then. Pretty stupid.

I don't think they are, as above. If they were, are you suggesting the website you are linking to is openly selling banned and illegal 'weapons'?

Never Mind those. We’re talking about knives.

underrated post

any bladed weapon over eight inches in length with a plain cutting edge and sharp pointed end that also has either a serrated cutting edge, more than one hole in the blade, or multiple sharp points like spike

This is why the legislation would be helpful, which I don't think has been published yet and the ban isn't yet in force. The description is poorly phrased, but I reckon that's included.

1) bladed weapon over 8 inches - check
2) sharp pointed end - check
3) plain cutting edge - check
4) either a serrated cutting edge (check) or more than one whole in the blade or multiple sharp points - check

Not illegal to sell presumably until the ban is in force?

underrated post

I got the impression something had gone straight over the top of my head ☺️. A not uncommon occurrence!

underrated post

Yes.. I was going to add something about the main problem isn’t those things but is instead deactivated hand guns being converted to fire. But I thought it might be over egging the pudding.

Would a WW1 bayonet be illegal to own now ? Say 17" in length.

Can they be passed onto a museum or something ?

Over 100 years old so fine.

Don't take my word for it, IANAL but...

As it's indisputably more than a 100 yo if it's definitely WW1 and not a repro, it's probably OK.

I've got a WW2 spike bayonet for a Lee Enfield. So a bit younger. I'm not entirely sure of it's legality - gulp! I think it's OK?? It would be a little ironic if I had to get rid, as I am legally allowed to own the live firing Lee Enfield rifle it belongs on the end of.

Banning ownership seems a bit difficult to enforce. My FiL has a shed full of mad stuff. There’s probably machetes and knives in there. I also doubt he’s even aware of the changes in the law. I’d imagine most people are.

Got pulled over by the police many years ago, "he's got a knife he's got a knife" up against the van legs spread full works. "Why have you got a knife" "Just come from work at the farm" "how do we know that" "well I am covered in cow shit"...not sure it warranted a riot van and and several cars full of cops..

Anyway after giving me a quick sniff they relented and let me on my way!

Banning ownership seems a bit difficult to enforce.

You ain't kidding. Would make a chef's job challenging 😉

What leaps out to me (retired lawyer) from that definition of a machete is the use of the word "weapon". It is either redundant or was put there to add meaning over eg "bladed thing" or "knife".

A court will assume it is there to add meaning. The way to find out what that meaning is, is to look up the surrounding documents and any debates, committee discussions in Hansard. Which I can't be arsed to do, but I would guess the legislative intention was not to outlaw established work implements like billhooks and breadknives, and that would be apparent from the legislative history. That will be taken into account when the definition has to be interpreted.

Of course, as we all know on STW a motor vehicle is a weapon, so check your motor for sharp and pointy bits.

I’ll see if the STW have any croissants they can send you.

Where no doubt you would find some handmade, I would expect that you may struggle however for any that have been rolled between virgin thighs.

I fear that ship has long sailed.

Of course, as we all know on STW a motor vehicle is a weapon, so check your motor for sharp and pointy bits.

LOL! Typical lawyer playing with definition. LOL! I am imagining a court case where everyone is trying to argue the definition of a particular term and then referencing the origin of the word. LOL! Then prolong the session to get paid more LOL!

Therefore, start again. Is a machete a weapon? If you are in other part of the world like South East Asia, you can buy machete almost everywhere. We use it for cutting the hedges, trees, as a hammer to break things, as a farming tool and, yes, to lop off body parts if nothing is available. Frankly, every household will have at least one machete. In the country side people would carry a machete on their waist belt when going to do farm work and is a common sight. The trend now is "sport machete" where the purpose is to show off how nice looking the machete is and how good the quality can be. People will treat their machete like their precious and never use it on dirt.

We went on a family trip to Grenada once about 20 years ago. One day we hired a soft top Jeep and took a mooch around the Island. On one tiny road we came across a gang of about 8 or 9 teenage males walking towards us on the road and completely blocking it. Each of them had a massive, vicious looking machete in their hand, casually dangling at their side. It took a few terrifying seconds to compute, but I quickly realised they were farm workers who'd been cutting sugar cane in the fields at the side of the road.  My wife however was convinced we were going to be dismembered and the kids were completely oblivious! They were of course smiley and friendly when we got a bit closer!

What leaps out to me (retired lawyer) from that definition of a machete is the use of the word “weapon”. It is either redundant or was put there to add meaning over eg “bladed thing” or “knife”.

What was quoted earlier isn't the legislation definition. I don't think that's been published yet.

LOL! Typical lawyer playing with definition. LOL! I am imagining a court case where everyone is trying to argue the definition of a particular term and then referencing the origin of the word. LOL! Then prolong the session to get paid more LOL!

The whole point is you do not just reference the origin of the word, you try to find out what parliament intended by looking at what it said. Words can end up with unusual meanings as a result of this process. (As an aside, the law's approach to meaning is that it always depends on ontext, so there is no one meaning of a word that the law must cleave to in all situations). So what might count as a weapon in parts of Asia is of little help to a court trying to interpret UK legislation.

What is a court supposed to do when faced with a new statutory provision to apply to a particular set of facts? Laws need interpreting, it is unavoidable. And it is preferable that it is done in accordance with established principles, that is one aspect of what is meant be "the rule of law".

And it is not playing, peoples' livelihoods and liberty may be at stake.

Also in my part of the world if people are are threaten with a 6 inch fixed blade knife, the normal way of solving the threats (normally they don't report to the police unless matter cannot be dealt with locally), is to bring in larger longer knife such as parang, or golok. LOL! Then they chase each other shouting with raise parang or golok. Interesting sight that. The rest of the locals would wait eagerly to be "entertained". i.e. literally wait for the fight to begin and eagerly wait to be "amused". Women would scream with their hands covering their eyes but watching it through the gaps between their fingers. However, village chief would normally have to settle the matter (locals still there watching but a bit disappointed by now)

I need a laptop for my job but I dont generally need a knife.
A chef on the other hand would struggle without several.

What's the chef going to do with all those laptops?

billhooks

Never Mind those. We’re talking about knives.

When she tried to get back on – Texas law was very different to Florida law! She was arrested & taken downtown and put in a cell with all the hos & junkies!

Texas you say. Would have been better off buying an automatic rifle, she’d have been give an award.

The whole point is you do not just reference the origin of the word, you try to find out what parliament intended by looking at what it said. Words can end up with unusual meanings as a result of this process. (As an aside, the law’s approach to meaning is that it always depends on ontext, so there is no one meaning of a word that the law must cleave to in all situations). So what might count as a weapon in parts of Asia is of little help to a court trying to interpret UK legislation.

What is a court supposed to do when faced with a new statutory provision to apply to a particular set of facts? Laws need interpreting, it is unavoidable. And it is preferable that it is done in accordance with established principles, that is one aspect of what is meant be “the rule of law”.

And it is not playing, peoples’ livelihoods and liberty may be at stake.

True, true, I forgot about the interpretation of the UK legislation etc. D'oh! I agree. No wonder I only did so so in law module at Uni. LOL!

I can imagine why a teen carrying a parang or golok in London, I mean where is the farm?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2024/9780348256871

It is a draft amending SI and it talks of "article" and "weapon".

Damn I said I wasn't going to look into it. You need to plug that amendment into the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (including any other amendments), to find out the full effect.

Damn I said I wasn’t going to look into it.

LOL! Crikey, that's a lot of information just to carry or not to carry a knife. I learn something today. LOL!

Difficult to argue with the stats if it’s based on the people convicted of doing the stabbing.

True.

Is that the case? Where are these statistics we're referencing?

Of course, as we all know on STW a motor vehicle is a weapon, so check your motor for sharp and pointy bits.

Pointy bits on a car would be an MOT failure and unlawful to drive.

I haven't read this whole thread, mainly because I live in Switzerland where knife carrying is a bit more liberal, possibly due to a more rural population and because the police carry guns?

Anyway, my main reason for carrying a full size (but UK legal) SAK was for a bottle opener along with a blade, screwdriver whatever. I now carry a Victorinox Rambler everywhere as it's the only? small SD sized SAK with a functional bottle opener.

Rambler

That draft is pretty clear. Def outlaws stuff like the greber I linked to earlier. Which is pretty stupid since carrying one of those in public was illegal anyway, and it's a useful tool.

Also helpfully defines how the blade is a measured which other legislation doesn't.

That draft is pretty clear. Def outlaws stuff like the greber I linked to earlier.

Really - you read it like that? I don't. How?

I think you might be looking for a problem.

Maybe I'm wrong - you'd hope it'll becomes clear.

It's super clear isn't it?

2.—(1) The Schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988(3) is amended as follows.

(2) In paragraph 1, after sub-paragraph (s) insert—

“(sa)the weapon sometimes known as a “zombie-style knife” or “zombie-style machete”, being a bladed article with—
(i)a plain cutting edge;
(ii)a sharp pointed end; and
(iii)a blade of over 8 inches in length (the length of the blade being the straight-line distance from the top of the handle to the tip of the blade),which also has one or more of the features specified in paragraph 1A and which is not a weapon that falls under paragraph 1(s);”
(3) After paragraph 1, insert—

“1A.—(1) For the purposes of paragraph 1(sa), the specified features are—

(a)a serrated cutting edge (other than a serrated cutting edge of up to 2 inches next to the handle);
(b)more than one hole in the blade;
(c)spikes;
(d)more than two sharp points in the blade (other than a sharp point of a kind specified in sub-paragraph (2)).

It meets paragraph sa (i, ii, and iii) and of the specified features it meets item (a) - serrated edge.

How can it be read differently. I don't think I'm looking for a problem, I just wanted to know the definition and have now read it. As it happens my machete I use on brambles isn't a combo one so is fine.

I think I might convert to Sikhism, then I’d be allowed to carry a dirty great big Kirpan around with me.

… not sure what they are like for cutting tomatoes.

Likewise, as long as I am wearing my full kilt outfit I should be OK with my Sgian Dubh down my hose? Or would I need to somehow carry proof of my second generation Scots ancestry in order for it to count as national dress?

More seriously, I get that it's complex and trying to cover a huge range of use cases but the law around all this is mighty confusing. My lovely little Svord Peasant is probably legal (just less than 3" and non locking in any practical sense) but my much more generally useful Leatherman Wave (deffo shorter blade than the Svord - among a whole load of other tools - but it locks) isn't.

Neither is anywhere near an EDC for me, but I'd be much more likely to be found out and about with the Wave on my person, especially if riding / trail building.

Is there any distinction in law about what the 'knife' is made of ?.

This is a Swedish butter knife, obviously for spreading, but some hardwoods can be given a reasonable edge and with the serrated edge on this example, Im sure something like a tomato or cheese would present little problem.

Posting for closure's sake and thanks to the mods for deleting the forum entries while matters were resolved. My sister handed in grandad's swordstick at the local police station today (it was too long for the knife deposit bin). Having been looking forward to inheriting it I'm actually glad it's gone. Reckon it was probably picked up at a French flea market in the 70s (it had 'India' stamped into the blade) so of little value or sentimental interest.

So me having a quick conversation with my workmate over a sliced tomato has directly led to several people changing their knife wielding habits and somebody actually handing the police a lethal heirloom…..the power of the internet never ceases to amaze.

Thought I’d chuck this in, all three I’ve carried at some point or other…

The modded Opinel I’ve never carried that often, having spent so much time getting the blade the shape I want it, I’m too afraid of losing it. The pruning knife on the right was my dad’s, and I don’t think there were many occasions when he didn’t have it in his pocket, but it’s rather bulky and it’s too precious to carry around, but I have used it in the garden occasionally.
The Spiderco Tasman Salt in the middle I used to carry quite a lot, particularly when I was a volunteer Ranger for Sustrans. My section included about a mile or so of path along an old railway line, which typically had lots of hedges and bushes along both sides, and equally typically brambles and rose briars would grow up through the bushes, along the branches then dangle down like ten feet of biological barbed wire right into the faces of cyclists and walkers.
Secateurs are awkward to use, the Tasman, designed for use on trawlers and crab and lobster boats for cutting through nylon netting and lines, is truly awesome for hacking through brambles, usually in one cut, maybe two or three if it’s thick. Cut through at the base, or as close as possible, then stretch up as high as possible, one cut and it’ll just stay there and die. Same with the stuff that grew out of the sides. I did have to take an axe to a fallen tree branch once, though.
I wish I’d had it with me on a walk the other day, sodding brambles and briers are already growing across a lane I regularly use.

Modern lightweight fabrics stand no chance against brambles. They should be clear cut like any other weed.