A further note to say that on the trip to see my mum the other weekend the Swiss Army Knife was used at various times to clean out the charging port of her mobile, divide a slice of tiffin and trim the turf around dad's grave, all of which could have been done with the right tools but they weren't to hand. I switched the scales for ones with a clip but in future it will be carried in a bag or internal pocket. But, the 91mm non-locking blade is 3.583 inches. Where does that leave me?
These guys have a really clear explanation and are a knife specialist so probably more informed than most.
https://www.whitbyandco.co.uk/pages/using-carrying-knives
Its illigal to carry over 3 inch cutting edge without good reason, and the guidance is that general "i might use it for x" isnt good reason.
Maybe buy a shorter bladeed one?
If your tool is that small every little counts.
the 91mm non-locking blade is 3.583 inches. Where does that leave me?
The law states that without good reason you cannot carry a knife:
a) with a fixed blade, or one which can be converted into what is effectively a fixed blade by means of a locking mechanism, or
b) with a blade longer than three inches, locking or not.
Where it leaves you is carrying an illegal knife.
now carry a Victorinox Rambler everywhere as it’s the only? small SD sized SAK with a functional bottle opener.
I presume you live in thf french or Italian part of Switz?
Any self respecting Teut learns to open bottles with a fag lighter/ spoon/ random object that comes to hand
Right, so it comes down to if you're caught carrying an illegal knife in the UK, then you're in trouble. The likelihood of being caught, which I'd always assumed to be vanishingly small, really comes down to other people, eg on a railway carriage and something kicks off and you happen to get involved and it transpires you have something on your person which you shouldn't.
The question is, in such a situation, are you automatically looking at a fine and/or custodial sentence, and a criminal record? Earlier informed posts suggest Yes. I'm not talking about engaging in threatening behaviour, which is clearly illegal, just being found to be in possession (easier to avoid if not on show, ie not clipped in jeans pocket).
The question is, in such a situation, are you automatically looking at a fine and/or custodial sentence, and a criminal record?
Yes
The question is, in such a situation, are you automatically looking at a fine and/or custodial sentence, and a criminal record?
Possession of any knife over 3in or which is fixed (which includes lock knives) is an offence which has up to 4 years in prison plus a fine unless you have "good reason" to have it.
Its not automatic but there is a good chance you will end up in court and so even if you do succeed in explaining to the court it was a good reason you will have had likely months or even years (given the creaking court system) of stress plus having to spend on the defence.
Hence why I would go for a sub 3in folder if I did feel the need to carry one day to day. Its just not worth the hassle.
Just my 2p worth - I _always_ used to carry a Swiss Army knife on me when I was younger. It was super useful! Screwdrivers, small blade, pokey thing to make holes bigger, tiny screwdriver to tighten my glasses, even the corkscrew... I wouldn't have even dreamed of using it in a confrontation - I don't understand how anyone can argue they "protect" themselves with an offensive weapon. Knives - and guns - are for attacking, not defending.
But these days I always have this on my keyring. Same size as a key, has a tiny blade for opening packages / stripping wires / whatever, a tiny serrated section for cutting threads, a bottle opener, can opener (if desperate), mini flat head screwdriver and a cross head screwdriver. And has never been taken off me at an airport! (not that I've deliberately tried to take it through, I've just forgotten to remove it from my pocket enough times, and had no problems, that I don't worry if I've left it in there).
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Any self respecting Teut learns to open bottles with a fag lighter/ spoon/ random object that comes to hand
I've never understood why gadgets aimed at men include a bottle opener
The likelihood of being caught, which I’d always assumed to be vanishingly small
It's about as likely as the earlier knife carrier's fantasy about encountering a car on fire and rushing into the flames to cut the seatbelt
are you automatically looking at a fine and/or custodial sentence, and a criminal record?
Automatically? Perhaps not. An attending officer might see before them a fine upstanding middle-class middle-aged white bloke and conclude that actually, a telling-off might be more appropriate. If it were to go to court, the law works on a basis of "this is what we did last time" and adjusts from there; ie you will get the basic punishment unless there's a reason to apply a more or less severe judgement.
So, "automatically," perhaps not, but there's a lot of variables here which could easily be removed by carrying a SAK and leaving the machete at home, you're basically hoping for goodwill. If as per your hypothetical scenario you were having your collar felt for being in the middle of a rammy then I expect that your chances of being told "off you go son, don't do it again" might suddenly be dramatically diminished. The whole point of the legislation is to empower coppers to drag ne'er-do-wells off the streets for a clearly defined reason, bang to rights.
I’ve never understood why gadgets aimed at men include a bottle opener
It’s about as likely as the earlier knife carrier’s fantasy about encountering a car on fire and rushing into the flames to cut the seatbelt
You arent actually grasping the situation.
A car on fire can be one reason, freeing a trapped animal another, or the same reason. And is as relevant as opening a bottle of wine or cutting the packaging or whatever.
There seems to be a lot of confusion here of what the term 'reasonable excuse is' but those that clearly cant think of one are lauding the term about, but not actually understanding neither the question, or the definition.
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You dont seem to understand that a reason can be a long list. I think thats ok, you cant be knowledgeable in everything, but the daily mail level of thinking is not helping anyones understanding.
Heres the example of this.
The law states that without good reason you cannot carry a knife:
a) with a fixed blade, or one which can be converted into what is effectively a fixed blade by means of a locking mechanism, or
b) with a blade longer than three inches, locking or not.
Where it leaves you is carrying an illegal knife.
Neither A nor B relate to the initial reason, which is the question. So asking the question, then putting down A and B is simply nonsensical. Those are simply the criteria of what a non legal knife is. and have nothing to do with the reason.
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The reason for having a knife that is legal, can be any reason, and it doesnt have to be an everyday situation, it can be completely obscure in a one in 10 billion scenario. The point is a knife below a certain length doesnt n need a reason, and that is all there is to it.
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So for example if a cop asks you what the reason for having a knife that is clearly below thew threshold, you can give the reason that it is below the length needed to make it illegal.
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The reason for having a knife that is legal, can be any reason, and it doesnt have to be an everyday situation, it can be completely obscure in a one in 10 billion scenario.
Nope. It has to be a 'good' reason. The one in 10 billion scenario would not be considered a good reason by virtue of its obscurity & rarity . Otherwise when arrested you could just say, 'if spiderman became entangled in his own web, I might be there to cut him free.'
Don't argue with me, it's the judge you'd be arguing with.
But these days I always have this on my keyring. Same size as a key, has a tiny blade for opening packages / stripping wires / whatever, a tiny serrated section for cutting threads, a bottle opener, can opener (if desperate), mini flat head screwdriver and a cross head screwdriver. And has never been taken off me at an airport! (not that I’ve deliberately tried to take it through, I’ve just forgotten to remove it from my pocket enough times, and had no problems, that I don’t worry if I’ve left it in there).
@Pierre I wonder if that's actually legal... The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2019 Section 1 (o)
1. Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offensive weapons) shall apply to the following descriptions of weapons, other than weapons of those descriptions which are antiques for the purposes of this Schedule:
(o) a disguised knife, that is any knife which has a concealed blade or concealed sharp point and is designed to appear to be an everyday object of a kind commonly carried on the person or in a handbag, briefcase, or other hand luggage (such as a comb, brush, writing instrument, cigarette lighter, key, lipstick or telephone);
Given a key is one of the specific examples, I would assume it's naughty.
Don't know if this has been posted before, but if not:
There seems to be a lot of confusion here of what the term ‘reasonable excuse is’ but those that clearly cant think of one are lauding the term about, but not actually understanding neither the question, or the definition.
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You dont seem to understand that a reason can be a long list
Evocative language aside, a reason has to be demonstrable. You may well have "extracting boy scouts from horses' hooves" in your big long list o' reasons to carry a knife but as far as a court would be concerned that's not a reason, it's an excuse. If you were a farrier on your way to work, that may be a different matter. If you're lucky.
Neither A nor B relate to the initial reason, which is the question. So asking the question, then putting down A and B is simply nonsensical.
The law is quite clear. Any lack of understanding here is not mine.
There seems to be a lot of confusion here of what the term ‘reasonable excuse is’ but those that clearly cant think of one are lauding the term about, but not actually understanding neither the question, or the definition.
Go on then. Define it for us and provide us the supporting court cases where your definition worked. I am especially fascinated to see the one in ten billion reason working.
The problem is there isnt a clear definition and so the only way it may get answered is in court. Which would be a pain in the arse even if the reason is accepted.
@Ewan crikey, you may have a point, technically speaking. Although given that the "knife" part of it is about 3cm long, I'm not sure it could be considered particularly offensive as a weapon. Someone determined to cause harm could use _any_ key if they wanted. Or a pen. Or a rolled-up magazine, or all sorts of other items someone might normally carry on their person.
@Pierre yeah the law is an ass, but since they decided a blunt butterknife is an offensive weapon, it's not a chance I'd take! I can see a prosecutor trying to argue that the fact it looks like a key makes it a more offensive weapon than say a SAK, as you'd be able to sneak it onto a plane or whatever.
freeing a trapped animal
Ah yes, I've forgotten about all the...(checks notes)...zero trapped animals I, or anyone I've ever known, have encountered in almost 50 years on the planet
^^ I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I have used a pocket knife to free a sheep which was very badly entangled in brambles. It was frightened, looked exhausted and had probably been there for a long time. I live in a sheep farming area so often encounter them stuck in brambles, barbed wire fences or lying on their backs unable to right themselves. My wife dragged a lamb out of a culvert it was stuck fast in last year. In fact, they seem to be on a mission to top themselves from the moment they're born!
I live in a sheep farming area
Sounds better than living somewhere with trapped animals in cars on fire where after rescuing them you cut open a plastic package containing your bottle of wine, then pop the cork for a drink to celebrate your heroics.
Sounds like it! I'd be straight on Rightmove! My point is, your inability to imagine a set of circumstances because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's almost like we all lead slightly different lifestyles from each other.
it’s the judge you’d be arguing with.
But you're carrying something that is legal to carry, so why would a judge be involved ?
(And im not arguing with you)
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It's not illegal to do something that is legal.
🙄
The point is a knife below a certain length doesnt n need a reason, and that is all there is to it.
Unless it locks...
"zero trapped animals"
I must have had your share then. (Not including own livestock)
But you’re carrying something that is legal to carry, so why would a judge be involved ?
It's perfectly plausible to find yourself in front of a judge for something legal. That's literally what they're there for, to decide whether you've acted legally or not and hand down a sentence accordingly.
It's not a copper's job to interpret the law, it's their job to go "hmm, this looks dodgy" and haul you in for further investigation. Again, it's why the knife law is the way it is, it's so that your average plod can go "if X and/or Y then Z" and bring you in for the legal eagles to then deal with.
