[Closed] Carbon capture project cancelled

Tall - we do not need to triple electricity production - we need to reduce energy consumption

Tidal is proven - and is low tech. Plant is being installed now

When we run out of gas and oil, how do you think we will heat houses and water and power vehicles? We electrify them - like I said. No matter what you do to reduce consumption, you need to power transport and replace gas when that goes for a burton. Another poster also said it regarding reducing consumption - it would take serious legislation, not people power, to reduce consumption to anything meaningful. But you'd still have an increasing population, transport and heting to deal with. Look at energy, not electricity!

Tidal - proven and low tech? Why on earth is there still not a single watt produced commercially by tidal if it is so easy and proven? Because it is harder than people think!

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21080-why-the-uk-buried-a-worldfirst-carboncapture-scheme.html

interesting article capt jon

Tootall - yup - low tech - its a turbine and a generator - all well known stuff and there have been generators running for the best part of ten years. sure there is still development to do and its in its early years but the tech is there and is capable of being installed in commercial sizes

Edukator - Member

What TJ does know is that for an attic flat which if properly insulated would be heated by the people living below his energy bills are embarrassing and would demonstrate just how hypocritical he is on this thread - moaning about others not doing anything to cut their carbon emissions when his own home is greenhousing the planet.

You realy do not know owt do you. Do you know what my house is like?
My attic is as well insulated as possible - I have spent much money and time in doing so. Nowt hypocritical about it.

There is a lot more to consider than the simple domestic energy usage. do you run a car?

My attic is as well insulated as possible -

[i]As possible[/i] don - its a 130 yr old listed building in a conservation area. There are distinct limits on what I can do - only wooden sash and case windows allowed for example

There are distinct limits on what I can do - only wooden sash and case windows allowed for example

don - you don't know what you are talking about. I have the very best windows I can have legally. Very expensive wooden sash and case with heritage spec sealed unit double glazing, high quality draftproofing. Cost £2000 for one window. the very best available. Secondary double glazed as well for some of them where it could be done.

I have insulated as much as possible. Every wall and ceiling has as much insulation as it is possible to fit.

don - you don't know what you are talking about.

Don - you don't know about my flat and what I have installed so to tell me that I have not done everything I can is just simple rubbish.

But TJ, I do know your flat and I do know that even though you've been fleeced on 2k worth of double glazing to the highest quality it only has a u value of somewhere in the region of 1,5W/m2ºC (Pilkington k glass and argon fill etc in 16mm gap, low emissivity, blah, blah blah) which could be improved with triple glazing, which even then, while expensive will only give you 0,8W/m2ºC and can be improved as glass alone is a compromise and not the best solution. Tell me how you prevent heat loss at night? But of course you are the all knowing font of knowledge who refuses to learn or accept that others might know more than you. As I said before, I'm out.

How do you know my flat don - you ever been here? You do not know what I can and cannot fit to the building. Have you any idea of what the listed buildings regs mean?

For example - the triple glazing you suggest I am not allowed to fit it. I can only have traditional wooden sash windows. The windows I have fitted are the best performing it is legal to fit.

You do not know my flat, you do not know what I have fitted to it, you do not know the regulations that I have to work with.

But no - you do apparently know that I could do more despite the fact that in 20 years living here I have done as much as is possible to improve its thermal performance

I know you're windows have a u value of around 1,5W/m2ºC, don't I? I don't know where your TV is, but I do know that you can improve your insulation and you're not doing everything possible to insulate your attic, are you?

How do you know I can do more? You don't know what the building is like, you don't know what the regulations state, you don't know what I have fitted.

all well known stuff and there have been generators running for the best part of ten years. sure there is still development to do and its in its early years but the tech is there and is capable of being installed in commercial sizes

generators running for 10 years (experinmentally) and yet it is in its early years?

TJ - I'd love to see wave power working, but it isn't. There isn't a commercial watt produced. You are hard over on it, yet the industry seems to struggle with that commercial step up.

You have some blind spot over the electrification of energy. If we increase power generation on the grid we need better, low-carbon generation. Building more coal fired stations is lunacy.

You've told me that you have double glazing, very simply this can be improved upon, it might be a question of money (think1,5W/m2ºC to 0,8w/m2ºC is a realistic improvement). I don't know your specific building but often the conservation rules are designed to respect the look of the building which means a triple glazed window could be fitted if it doesn't change the aspect and even then you could go further with respect to solar heat gain. What's the iron content of the glass used and how much light are you losing because of it? Are you reducing solar heat gain in the summer or maximizing it in the winter? It can't do both. Remember glass is a compromise material for windows. Conservation rules can be challenges and changed, the laws might say no window shutters when the reality is no window shutters with external boxes, an internal box might well be acceptable as is often the case with shops.
Far from not knowing what I'm talking about, I actually know a significant amount and would be grateful if you apologise for...

TandemJeremy - Member

don - you don't know what you are talking about.

Don - what bit of

You don't know what the building is like, you don't know what the regulations state, you don't know what I have fitted.

You do not know what you are talking about here as you have amply demonstrated. You might know about insulation products but you know nothing about my house, what I have done to it,and what is possible to do to it.

I AM NOT ALLOWED TO FIT ANYTHING BUT WOODEN SASH AND CASE WINDOWS. No triple glazing, no shutters.

Tootall - don't confuse tidal and wave - however there are commercial operations running both wave and tidal power.

You have some blind spot over the electrification of energy. If we increase power generation on the grid we need better, low-carbon generation. Building more coal fired stations is lunacy.

No - its you that has the blind spot thinking we can increase energy usage - we cannot - we have to decrease energy usage. You also follow the false premise about nuclear - it cannot be the solution - we don't have the fuel.

TandemJeremy - Member

Don - what bit of

You don't know what the building is like, you don't know what the regulations state, you don't know what I have fitted.

You do not know what you are talking about here as you have amply demonstrated. You might know about insulation products but you know nothing about my house, what I have done to it,and what is possible to do to it.

I AM NOT ALLOWED TO FIT ANYTHING BUT WOODEN SASH AND CASE WINDOWS. No triple glazing, no shutters.

You do not know what you are talking about here as you have amply demonstrated.

Don - why am I ignorant when you keep saying I should do things that I am not allowed to do

Its you that does not understand the situation here. Its a listed building in a conservation area. I am very tightly bound by what I can do.

You fail to understand my situation and get all humpty when your false assumptions are questioned

Ignorant because you only listen to what you want to and are not prepared to be taught and dismiss others without a thought.

No don - you don't understand.

You do not know my flat
You do not understand what I am and am not allowed to do
you keep saying I should do things I am not allowed to do
You do not know what I have done.

No don - you don't understand.

You do not know my flat
You do not understand what I am and am not allowed to do
you keep saying I should do things I am not allowed to do
You do not know what I have done.

Why do you keep trying to tell me what I am and am not allowed to do - you clearly don't know. I do.

I have fitted the only sealed unit double glazing I am allowed in listed building - its a heritage spec replica window fitted with ultra thin sealed units. Its the only double glazed window that I am permitted to fit as its specially manufactured to be to heritage standards. You clearly have never come across this type of double glazing before - It looks identical to the standard glass. One manufacturer worldwide that makes it.

Its B listed and in a conservation area.

I actually know what the building is and what I am permitted to fit. You do not. I am not allowed to fit anything but wooden sash and case window of identical profiles to original. Because of this I cannot fit triple glazing, I cannot fit shutters, I cannot fit standard sealed units

Because of this I cannot fit triple glazing, I cannot fit shutters, I cannot fit standard sealed units

Well I was going to go mountain biking and then I started reading this thread 😆

I don't know where to start but I'm glad Kit and Stu turned up!

I'd love to see wave power working, but it isn't. There isn't a commercial watt produced. You are hard over on it, yet the industry seems to struggle with that commercial step up.

This would still be going if it wasn't for Babcock going under in the recession: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agu%C3%A7adoura_Wave_Farm

http://www.wavegen.co.uk/news_press%20release%208%20july%202011%20mutriku%20opening.htm

Tidal - proven and low tech? Why on earth is there still not a single watt produced commercially by tidal if it is so easy and proven? Because it is harder than people think!

http://www.marineturbines.com/

[i]SeaGen - the world's only commercially operational tidal turbine: feeding 10MWh per tide into the UK grid[/i]

And have a read of http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/energy/ to get an idea of what the near future holds.

Yes it is really simple.

In a listed building any new windows must be replicas of the original- ie in my case they must be mullioned wooden sash and case.

The slimline sealed units I have fitted are the only possible double glazed replacement windows that meet this criteria.

Unlike you I have discussed this issue with the regulators and have investigated every possible avenue.

So, in response to your statement of doing everything you can in your fight to insulate you attic, the answer is you are not and you have not produced anything to demonstrate otherwise except for your typical "you don't understand" crap.

Well don - but you don't understand as you clearly demonstrate or you wouldn't keep telling me I can do things that are not allowed. How can you fit triple glazing in a wooden sash and case window of identical profile to the originals?

Have you discussed this with historic Scotland? I have. Have you discussed it with planning dept? I have. Have you investigated all possible avenues to improve the thermal performance of my flat? I have.

Its outrageously arrogant of you to keep telling me there is more I can do when I actually know what is allowed and you do not. You keep telling me to do stuff that is not allowed.

Wahts your experience of listed buildings in the Edinburgh conservation area?

Show me where it says that you can not, I have produced a document that states Edinburgh allows triple glazing. I ask you again to produce tangible evidence to contradict the document I posted.
Common sense determines that the planning regs are guidelines and not set in stone, experience tells me that planning regs can be changed for the greater good.
Please I ask you to either show me documentary evidence prohibiting you from adding triple glazing, or, and of course this depends on previous build, prevents you from using window shutters.
You simply can't and are wasting your time and effort. The facts are irrefutable and it doesn't matter how stupid you think I am, the documents do not support your opinion and it is just that, your opinon.

Wahts your experience of listed buildings in the Edinburgh conservation area?

At the end of the day, we can't have 100% renewable without invasive hydropower or tidal projects which are very expensive and very ecologically damaging

Nice dream - your selective belief of politicians is a beautiful thing to behold. It won't be.

If you are referring specifically to Scotland don't think that all renewable energy means building new developments, we already have an extensive large scale hydro infrastructure thats been in place for decades and is already part of the reason why Scotland is a net exporter of energy. Salmond's renewables-based future scottish economy does concern me though, unless he walks the walk and supports UK developers it ain't gonna happen.

Also don't associate tidal power with big projects like the Severn barrage - look at the developments actually happening and how they work. Environmental impacts of tidal turbines have been studied extensively and the information is freely available, I'm not sure what your reference for being very ecologically damaging is, but in terms of marine mammals there has been some very interesting recent long term research by SMRU. http://www.smru.co.uk/marine-renewable-energy/strangford-lough.aspx

The electrification of energy is coming

Great news! I will look forward to binning my petrol powered laptop then! 😕

I think there is more to the future of UK energy than Jeremy's windows 😆

I think there is more to the future of UK energy than Jeremy's windows

Just thought I'd add my tuppenceworth as someone who actually works in the carbon capture "industry".

Given the sheer quantity of energy we currently use (and will potentially use in the future), we're up the swannie and, unless we do something quickly, we're are going to be in serious trouble.

Carbon capture isn't THE solution but is a pretty vital part of it until someone comes up with a way to provide power with significant environmental impacts. It is currently the only way we can produce power from hydrocarbons without further contributing to climate change. Some of the other posters have raised concerns about how it is energy intensive (25% of the rated output of a power station isn't too far off the mark) and there is a chance it won't work (leakage back from the saline aquifers or depleted oil and gas fields where it is stored) but, to be honest. Sticking in the ground offshore is better than continuing to pump it in to the atmosphere. From a technical perspective, CO2 storage underground does work. They've been doing it in the States for the past 60 years (for other reasons) without leakage back to the atmosphere.

Put simply, we need clean, reliable base load power and, with the best will in the world, wind and tidal energy just isn't going to be able to provide that (there are some scary stats out there about wind power, have a swatch at how much of their rated output the windfarms in the UK are actually producing).

One parting thought though, why not invest heavily in hydro power? We in Scotland have large tracts of unpopulated land with high rainfall and plenty of elevetion. It something we could do and we don't skills/materials from other countries to help us (like so may other "renewable" energy schemes out there).

So Don Simon - are you going to tell historic Scotland they are wrong?

You see unlike you I have asked them and I know what is allowed and waht is not. Windows must only be replaced with replicas of the original. this is the fact.

I do find it amusing that someone who does not even live in the UK thinks he knows better than historic Scotland what would be allowed in my building and what would not.

The same as every other conservation area in that logic and common sense win.

You see unlike you I have asked them and I know what is allowed and waht is not. Windows must only be replaced with replicas of the original. this is the fact.

so you know nothing then.

Wind turbines are both ugly and noisy.

I'd say ugly is a personal decision, Enercons are beautiful pieces of engineering IMO. I find some windfarms really interesting in the landscape, if you know the one on the way to Thurso, I think it really fits the landscape and really enjoy looking at it. They are noisy, but if they are put somewhere where no one can hear them, its not such an issue. The real future of wind in the UK is offshore, and most sites are significantly far offshore, many of them beyond the 35km horizon visibility.

You don't give a flying **** about the visual pollution then? Top stuff.

Quite a sentence in many ways, especially in relation to a lickle 330-500kW turbine! Anyway - they can be fun to look at:

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You have just told me that Historic Scotland will only allow replicas of the original, yet your double glazed windows are not replicas of the original, are they?

yes they are - they are the only windows that meet the requirement to be a replica of the original.

Evidently Historic Scotland do allow more modern structures

as I said much, much, much earlier you can not change the look or character, again something you have done by using modern glass and ......,

No I have not - because they are heritage spec windows that are exact replicas of the original.

Now you're trying to tell me that single glazing is the same as double glazing, are you? And modern smooth glass is the same as the original galss?
I'm still waiting for the prohition document.

No I have not - because they are heritage spec windows that are exact replicas of the original.

Don - I cannot be bothered arguing with you any more.

Have you discussed this with Historic Scotland? I have and I know what they will allow and what they will not.

Have you discussed this with Historic Scotland? I have and I know what they will allow and what they will not.

Don - to educate you need to talk some sense and have some knowledge. You keep insisting that it is possible to do things that are not allowed.

Now I have lived here for 20 years and have had a lot of discussions with historic Scotland. You have not.

Now who knows best? Historic Scotland or you?

Any replacement window must be a replica of an original. there is no triple glazed unit that will fit in a replica window. there is only one manufacturer in the world that makes a double glazed unit that is compatible.

there are commercial operations running both wave and tidal power.

Links please - I'm very interested.

its you that has the blind spot thinking we can increase energy usage - we cannot - we have to decrease energy usage. You also follow the false premise about nuclear - it cannot be the solution - we don't have the fuel.

I'm saying that to compensate for the oil burned and the gas burned, we need to increase electricity. You really miss that point. I agree - we need to reduce the energy used. How would you cope with the replacement for gas and oil?

Newer generations of reactors would use what we now call 'nuclear waste' as fuel. We have fuel.

Its still small scale - more plant is being installed all the time.

tidal - for example
http://www.seageneration.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_Tidal_Power_Station
There are others as well including some in Norway

Wave
http://www.pelamiswave.com/our-projects/agucadoura
http://www.wavegen.co.uk/

Again there are others out there and more going in off the scottish coast.

What will be interesting to see is how many of the scottish ones survive the winter.

Newer generations of reactors would use what we now call 'nuclear waste' as fuel. We have fuel.

We need things to be installed now - and using waste as fuel - thats a new one on me.

Or do you mean breeder reactors - a failed tech.

we only have fuel for a few decades espcially with the massive expansion you want. That is a fact

Its no good saying the tech will come along - the pro nuke folk have been promising us that for decades.

I do not miss the point. We can reduce our c02 output by reducing energy consumption. You need to look a the whole country and its total energy usage. Electricity cannot replace much fossil fuel anyway. Its reducing this usage that will reduce c02 emissions.

You need to read your links:

SeaGen - the world's only commercially operational tidal turbine

Your wave power isn't producing commercially. Sorry.

Do you really think the UK can reduce consumption enough to cope with no gas and no oil? You are proving your lack of the subject or your own madness.