[Closed] Car questions again - RWD in general and bike rack fuel economy this time..

[i] whether moving to a RWD car requires a change in approach[/i]

only in low traction and/or high engine or road speed situations. day to day you won't really notice.

rear mount is fairly minimal affect, roof mount really hits mpg.

Probably get more toys on the newer car 🙂 and wouldn't normally drive a beamer.

Bones is better than a roof but would consider a tow bar mounted one for ease of use - wheel mounts better for odd shaped frames.

Well the two cars are identical in colour and spec. It's purely the age and milage that are different.

Is one year newer better than 10k on the clock? Both will come with a 1 yr warranty ..

which has the better service history......

id buy which ever has the most complete.

Budget on winter tyres for the RWD car or you won't be going anywhere this winter. If a BMW the fuel economy will be appalling with a bike rack on or off (even the diesels).

which has the better service history......

id buy which ever has the most complete.

This.

I used to drive a Cooper S with a Saris - now, I'm trying to remember, but I'm sure it knocked around 4-5 mpg off (displayed on the trip computer, not calculated by me though). When driving a later 1-series diesel (118d), a roof-mounted would knock around 8-10mpg off - so on a motorway - from normally 50ish mpg to low 40s.

I would still go with a roof mounted and live with the difference. They're so much easier to manage with than a Bones, which in itself is very well designed for the job it does - but some FS and even shortarse HT frames can struggle to get on to the Bones. Then, there's getting the tailgate open with bikes on the back, constant re-tightening of straps when on a long schlep, etc etc. Also, you have the security of knowing your bikes are locked onto a roff mounted rack...not that I'd leave them on one for a long period unattended, but just for services, paying for fuel, the odd coffee stop...etc etc.

EDIT:

If a BMW the fuel economy will be appalling with a bike rack on or off (even the diesels).

Really? Our 118d was superb for fuel economy. Mind you, with bikes on the roof, it took a hammering for sure.

Both cars are from an approved used BMW centre so have perfect history. There really is nothing to choose from them apart from age and milage!

Thanks for thoughts about rwd and rack though.. winter tyres eh, pricey :-/

I've been driving RWD cars for years now, and unless the car your buying is a fairly high performance model and/or does not have the usual mod cons of traction/stability control, then you dont really need to modify your driving style for RWD.

You'll be fine through winter as well, just drive to the conditions and you'll be fine. If you get a lot of snow it will stop you getting out, but it'd probably also stop a front wheel drive car too. I keep a set of snow socks in the boot to act as a get me home option if I really need to use them, I've not needed them yet, but I guess it does depend where you live. You do see lots of RWD cars stuck spinning the wheels, but I think that in a lot of these instances a little better technique (ie put in a higher gear and be gentle with the throttle) would have got them moving. Winter tyres will make a massive difference though, and if you can afford them are a good option, but not essential IMO - I dont have any.

I've never been stranded yet, in over 15 years of high performance RWD cars (Lotus elise, Honda S2000, BMW M3)

I've got a towbar mounted rack and makes no difference on my RWD car.
Doesn't seem like there's much to choose between the cars. I'd go for the one which has had the last service done most recently - i.e. longer interval to next service.

Flaperon -
Member
Budget on winter tyres for the RWD car or you won't be going anywhere this winter. If a BMW the fuel economy will be appalling with a bike rack on or off (even the diesels).

That's a lot of bollocks for one short post. If the winter is as bad as two years ago then yes, winter tyre wills be a must. Last winter, not so much.

As for the fuel economy comment....... eh?

re the two cars, sorry I should clarify - the older car (with 40k) is about £1k more than the newer one with 50k, for some reason! What I meant to say is is it worth paying £1k more for 10k miles?!

What I meant to say is is it worth paying £1k more for 10k miles?!

This is where you have to sit down with whoever's selling you the car and find out what it will need doing in the next, say, 20000 miles. Cam Belt? Major component replacement? How are the tyres? Don't be afraid to ask the dealer what the thread depth is on each. When is the next service due? Blac blah blah. And don't be afraid to ask for at least 10% off the window price...if he doesn't like it, leave your number and take a stroll.

Are the Spec's the same?

I personally would go with the car thats been serviced more and serviced more at an official dealer. Official dealers GIVE you the bill, they always err on the side of caution and will replace parts at the previous owners largese.

When are they both due their next service? When was the last one? It may be a major service next - i.e you may end up paying circa £500 for its next service.

How many miles do you drive a year? If less than 15,000 I wouldn't bother with a diesel. It doesn't make sense.

I've only seen one of the cars quickly last night, which I'm due to test drive this afternoon. I've not yet seen the other one as they need to drag it out of storage.

The spec's are identical - both 320i SE in montego blue (E92). They look luverlly

I do indeed, need to go through service details with them too.

I did consider diesel but tbh it's at least a 2k premium over petrol and I'm not sure that given the miles I drive (about 10k per year) it would represent a saving over the period I'll own the car.

oh and I did ask for 10% off and got about 4%! Tbh, it's not actually a bad price and only slightly more than equivelent cars sold privately (and without a year's warranty).

It's only an "option" at the moment ... 😀

Rear mounted bike racks hammer economy on motorways.

We drove to France last year in a 1 series BMW, normally on long journeys I would easily get >60mpg. On the drive to France (with a heavily laden car) and two bikes on a tow bar mounted rack we averaged 42mpg. Mate in his similarly economical Fabia VRs with rear mounted rack and two bikes had very similar.

As for RWD - you won't notice any difference day to day, but it will be crap in the snow. Buy some snow socks and leave then in the boot.

RRR you can also play hardball on price.

Also check the tyres -all the same brand? Any budgets in there and how much wear? I imagine at min 40k the tyres would be on their second sets by now and so could be on Wing long's etc. Always go for quality rubber on the rear of RWD IMO.

I know it's all part of what these guys do but they really didn't seem too fussed about selling it.

They said they'd do it for a £50 less than we agreed but wouldn't sort out the minor scuffs on the bumper!

I suppose being a huge company (Sytner BMW) they're not as fussed as small independents ?

I have a Z4 Coupe and use a Saris Bones rack on it. Its not an ideal situation but it works. The rack will damage the paint even if your are careful with it. I don't know what affect the rack has on MPG but it does cause a lot of drag, so much so that it snapped the plastic (not the strap) which attaches to the seat tube. The bikes are also perpendicular to the direction of travel which will cause more drag than a roof rack. On my car you can only fit one bike on with both wheels, if you need to get two on, the wheels need to come off. The Saris Bones also struggles quite a bit to fit some full suspension bikes as the straps are designed to fit the top tube which on certain bikes may have the shock in the way. If you can fit a roof rack I would.

Moving to rear wheel drive only needs a change in approach if you are really pressing on otherwise its no different. Driving in snow just requires driving really smoothly and maintaining momentum or as Julians suggest, steep gradients should be avoided. We've had two bad winters recently and everyone has become paranoid about snow, last year was fine. I'd just keep some socks of chains in the boot for emergencies.

As for choosing which car there's not much in it, go off the condition or which ever has the best history.

I suppose being a huge company (Sytner BMW)

Oh hello. You'd probably get a decent one years warranty from them whereas an indie would probably only go to 3months.......

Hora, yes I'll get one years warranty, european breakdown cover and MOT cover (covers costs of unexpected MOT repairs).

[i]Driving in snow just requires driving really smoothly and maintaining momentum or as Julians suggest, [b]steep gradients should be avoided[/b][/i]

Hmm this could be interesting what with living in Sheffield (the city ground to a complete standstill in the snow last year).

re roof racks etc - does anyone know of a big plastic sock sort of thing to stuff the bike in?

The bike would fit in the boot as the rear seats fold down. I would however, have to provide guarantees to the wife in terms of keeping mud out of the car!

What utter bollocks. Sorry, I owned two MX5's and drove them in snow over the tops, M62 and around Huddersfield - I NEVER had any issues! If they are WIDE tyres possibly harder but its compound and tyre type and driving style FIRST before FWD/RWD etc...

I also drove a Peugeot 107 on sheet ice and deep snow last winter on Eco tyres. Not once did I pap myself.

I think the 'BMW' issue comes from people beleiving the BMW hype that the car will be in control/sort them, spinning the wheels and running Conti standard tyres in winter.

Not read the rest but E46 330i '52 semi-auto here, with two thule racks on the roof.

Driving to Coedy from London and back with 2 bikes on the roof a passenger and all our gubbins for a long weekend and I averaged 26.8mpg.

Normal average mpg is 31 - with the rack still on, no bikes. (The slight increase over the published mileage is due to a K&N filter in the standard air box).

Edit: - OP, you've seen it of course.

Edit: - Hora, you've mused about buying it, twice now. Still no reponse from you...

Edit: - I did go to the effort of pumping the tyres up to the recommended heavy load pressures.

Hi Kryton, indeed I have.

Will buying a BMW make me an instant c*** on the roads? :/

The paperwork, its definitely not the HG/head- official paperwork from BMW or a handwritten note from an indie? They are made from aluminium hence the worry.

The last part isn't accusing etc- its just a worry for me.

RopeyReignRider - Member
Hi Kryton, indeed I have.

Will buying a BMW make me an instant c*** on the roads? :/

In everyones elses eyes yes, but you'll have the satifaction of the driving the ultimate driving machine and being in "Joy" 😉

The trick to loving a BMW is to drive one, is the real diffrentiator (seriously).

hora - Member
The paperwork, its definitely not the HG/head- official paperwork from BMW or a handwritten note from an indie? They are made from aluminium hence the worry.

The last part isn't accusing etc- its just a worry for me.

Its not a BMW dealer it's and indie, and an indie with BMW qualified staff, not handwritten but printed properly. I'd be happy to show you. And no it wasn't the HG - that was my mistake.

Will buying a BMW make me an instant c*** on the roads?

No those type of people are naturally cocks in themselves already - its not the car. I knew a bloke who was a 'divide and conquer'/hard nosed political 'player' etc in the work place..

I found out he drove an Audi. normal folk drive Audi's but the above tend to think 'German engineering, precision and awesomeness- thats me that is'. As well.

re: rear bike racks
If your car is reasonably big then the bikes don't stick out the sides.

I have a tow-bar mounted platform rack and my diesel Mazda6 is pretty wide, so the difference in fuel economy is 3 or 4mpg on a long run on varied roads.
If I was tanking it down the outside lane of the M1 for 200miles then it might be different.

duplicate post

What makes you think my current M reg Astra isn't the Ultimate Driving Machine?

Ultimate Driving Machine

BMW stopped using that tag line years ago, just after they realised that it was incorrect 😉

hora - Member

What utter bollocks. Sorry, I owned two MX5's and drove them in snow over the tops, M62 and around Huddersfield - I NEVER had any issues! If they are WIDE tyres possibly harder but its compound and tyre type and driving style FIRST before FWD/RWD etc...

I also drove a Peugeot 107 on sheet ice and deep snow last winter on Eco tyres. Not once did I pap myself.

I think the 'BMW' issue comes from people beleiving the BMW hype that the car will be in control/sort them, spinning the wheels and running Conti standard tyres in winter.

I think the issue is that BMWs tend to be rather heavy and often run big alloys with wide low profile tyres (gotta make your 318d look 'sporty' of course 😆 ). Other RWD cars seemed to be getting about okay, but I nearly got wiped out a few times by BMWs and they seemed to be getting stuck on every minor gradient round here (Essex, so not exactly mountainous!)

The trick to loving a BMW is to drive one, is the real diffrentiator (seriously).

Seriously? I couldn't wait to get rid of mine - hated it. Uncomfortable seats and driving position, stupidly overpriced run flats, seriously over rated and massive depreciation.

Other than that, it was one of the best cars I've ever owned 🙄

Ah yes but most of the massive depreciation has already happened for the ones I'm looking at.. slows down quite a bit from now on it seems!

RRR, I rekon the newer car for 1k less.

It will always be the newer car & with your moderate milage a year will still be quite low milage in 3 years.

FWIW, We have a RWD auto, when it snows it stays firmly on the drive... mainly because I live on big hill & its just about impossible to get out of my road. Maybe I should think about some winter tyres for this year.

Echo the above thoughts that rwd not really any worse in snow, you just have to have a bit more conviction. I would quite happily get up hills in my MX5 with wide low profile tyres on that people in fwd cars couldnt even get up.

Will you notice difference fwd to rwd, well probably not in a lower powerd 3 series.

RWD driven well ie getting the power down out of a corner gives you a feeling that no fwd car can (regardless of the power)

I'd prefer petrol over diesel. ALL diesels deliver power in a lump, and once you get out of the throttle take an age to get back the power (relative) petrol allows you to balance the power much more finely, which is what you want with rwd.

There is no noticeable difference going to a rwd from previous cars for normal driving, but if you drive hard and fast then I think you will appreciate the difference.
With regard to carrying bikes, I just use a [url= http://www.groundeffect.co.nz/product-detail-BOD-BAG.htm ]Ground Effect Body Bag[/url] and a pair of wheel bags. Does not take long and easy to get the bike in and out.
I'm guessing that the options on the car will be making the difference. Just because they are both se, means very little in reality. I had an E92 325ise, but it had 18" alloys, sport suspension, full leather, sports seats, iDrive. Still an se, but with a lot of expensive extras.
On an E92, the biggest issue for resale I think is lack of iDrive. It's not 'worth it' per se, but not having it makes them much less desirable, as would leather and larger wheels (18s most preferable I think) etc.
Life left in tyres is also important consideration. If it is still on runflats, they will be expensive to replace. Think I paid about £260 to replace a single front one with a bulge.

Final question - for the same money would you choose a 4 year old car with 50k on the clock or a 5 year old with 40k on it (BMW) ?

No way of knowing, but I'd be wondering whether the older car (8k a year) was driven around town whereas the 4 year old (12.5k a year) had done a few more long distance trips.

As I said, no way of knowing, but I'd have a think about it if it was me.

My low bike rack didn't really affect mpg where as a a high level one knocks 5mpg off easily

The whole mileage / age issue is such a guess in my opinion that I would not worry about it myself. My dad has a 54 plate volvo that has only done something like 30 odd thousand miles, but he rarely does short journeys in it. He does long journeys, but might not use it for a week at a time. Whereas someone who has done greater miles, might thrash it from cold every single time they get in it even if they then go on to do a long journey.
My 130 is a 57 plate and has only done 36k, but I very rarely go over about 4000 revs until it has warmed up, then I use the engine.

You do see lots of RWD cars stuck spinning the wheels, but I think that in a lot of these instances a little better technique (ie put in a higher gear and be gentle with the throttle) would have got them moving.

You'd think so, but when I got stuck in two inches of snow I can assure you that I tried pretty much every combination of gears, revs, DTC, TCS imaginable. Used to be able to get my Passat pretty much anywhere in snow so fairly certain it's not my driving style.

I suspect the problem is not so much RWD per se, but low profile wide tyres on a fairly light car.

That body bag thingy looks like a good idea if I don't get a rack.

Well, one of my questions has been answered for me in that the older/lower milage car has now been sold!

I've just come back from a brief test drive and it feels lovely (but then again a tractor would feel lovely after my current car).

As for whoever asked about tyres - it has Dunlop's on the back and Hankook's on the front. All in very goood nick. Tbh the car should generally be in good shape as it's a BMW approved thingy wotsit car (and has the year's unlimited milage warranty).

RRR, have a think about getting that Tracer on a Saris Bones. Its not easy, but can be done.

Plus the feet do mark the paintwork unless you put something between them and the body.

Kryton, I think I'll work on convinving Mrs RRR that I can fold down the seats and stuff it in the back.

Rather oddly, last night when we were looking around it was I that had to pursuade her to at least consider looking at the saloon and estate versions for the additional praticality. However, presuambly because she likes the colour (no, really) she said didn't see the point and we should test the E92. Odd.

Personally the classic shaped E46 Sport in silver is the way to go. Then, you could get something sporty like, a 3L engine. Now, imagine if you knew someone with one of those for sale....

🙂

Yes you're right of course but unfortunately there's no-one I know who has one for sale!

I thought you got a new one anyway? I remember you muttering something about it feeling the same as the old one?

Yes you're right of course but unfortunately there's no-one I know who has one for sale!

Are you sure? (Note that I'm writing between the lines).

I thought you got a new one anyway? I remember you muttering something about it feeling the same as the old one?

Erm, I still have the old one, er maybe. Fancy a test drive? 😀

All the talk of RWD in winter 🙄 Here in Liverpool it never bloody snows anyway, simply not an issue for me. Even in winter no problems visiting wales / lakes /peaks.

I have a westfalia removeable tow bar & Thule Tow Bar mounted Bike Rack, MPG drops arround 5-8mpg on my motorway stints.

Does 3/4 years mean one is pre/post facelift period?

Tempting Kryton but no ta. Having two Bimmers is just plain greedy! 😀

timc - I think it's pre-facelift but I'm not entirely sure

links to cars & forum can tell you!

RWD cars can randomly spin out when driving in a straight line at constant speed on snow. I've seen it happen right in front of me in the USA. Driving along, and suddenly wheeeee and we had to swerve. This isn't really possible with a FWD car.

Of course a modern car with ESP and whatnot shouldn't do that, but it goes to show there is definitely a difference. More of the weight is over the non-drive wheels, which makes them harder to push through snow and then the less laden rear wheels (relative to FWD) have less grip and have to do more work.

As above though, electronics can counter this I suppose.

Oh yeah - towbar mounted racks - on my Passat the bars and saddle stick up above the boot, and this causes a lot of drag. Fuel economy dropped from 54mpg ish to about 46-48 or so.

molgrips - Member
....I've seen it happen right in front of me in the USA...

But we all know the septics have a different definition of competance, and more to the point, level of enthusiam...

It was heavy traffic, doing about ooh, 30mph or so. It was snowing moderately and had been for a couple of hours so there was about an inch or a bit more on the ground, temperatures below freezing. The road was covered apart from tyre marks which retained a dusting.

The car suddenly span out. As far as I could tell, the car hadn't been attempting to do anything like change lane.

The car suddenly span out. As far as I could tell, the car hadn't been attempting to do anything like change lane.

"Goddamit Darlene, watch me overtake this sum'bitch" (in american accent)

molgrips, I (stupidly perhaps) drove my 231bhp RWD auto through the last snow, on the way to a ride. I drove carefully, bit it coped fine *shrugs*

I have a 330d and a Thule tow bar mounted rack. There's no noticeable difference in MPG with it on or off (that's with two bikes)

When the weather is like this then you have to go canny on the accelerator coming out of roundabouts n the like. Other than that it's like a FWD without the understeer and the dodgy torque steer. 🙂

I'd go for the lower milage of the two. Or check which has the better bodywork, looking at minor imperfections.

Thanks all, well as I say the lower milage, older one has now been sold.

The other one I test drove at lunch and may consider thinking about getting it, maybe, subject to wifely discussions etc.

So, a mixed message about economy and bike racks then really!

At this late stage FWIW:
320d E46 auto estate - not perfect, Auto box is poor but chassis is great and seats very comfy.
3 people, 3 bikes on roof, pissing rain run to Liverpool and back from Stirling = 39MPG
1 person, carbon bike inside clear day run to Birmingham = 49mpg

Live in central scotland and had little issues with getting around in the snow in 2010/11 except when the diesel froze. Driving in the snow is about technique and a wee bit of luck, front wheel drive can compensate for both.
Next car will prob be another Bimmer (5th) but may go back to petrol.

molgrips, I (stupidly perhaps) drove my 231bhp RWD auto through the last snow, on the way to a ride. I drove carefully, bit it coped fine *shrugs*

Well perhaps the conditions were different? Maybe your car has ESP? Perhaps your tyres were better? US tyres are insanely hard compound, they come warrantied for 80k miles sometimes 😯

Maybe you drove more slowly than the person I saw? There was no overtaking, there was no bend or change of speed. All it'd take would be the front wheels wandering out of the two black stripes, the front wheels would be retarded, the back wheels break traction and you're gone. My sister in law also spun out on a quiet road with very little bend, despite having grown up in a snowing climate and being experienced in snow driving (like day in day out 4 months of every year), but I didn't see what she did cos I wasn't there. We just had to go and push her out 🙂

The incident I saw would have been impossible in a fwd car.

Has the OP bought a car yet?

Not yet! I'm definitely thinking about it though! I just need to sort an insurance quote which is tricky at the moment as the car is in between registration plates (it had a private plate on it which isn't included in the sale).

Run one on a like for like car - with a different reg. That'd give you the price.

Yep I've done that now Hora. Mind you I still have to wait for the V5 gubbins to be sorted out before I can buy it (assuming I'm going to)...

Tomorrow, hopefully tomorrow! 😀

I suspect the problem is not so much RWD per se, but low profile wide tyres on a fairly light car.

Correct - it doesn't matter which wheels are doing the driving, it matters whether they've got the weight of an engine over them or not. That's why RWD vans are also a disaster in snow. A diesel engine is heavier so even better, the best car I've ever driven in snow is Mrs Gti's C1 diesel, engine over the driving wheels and narrow tyres and with winter tyres it's unbeatable; last winter we could stop on a steep slope of packed snow, declutch and move off with no drama at all.

ESP doesn't help; last winter I tried to climb a shallow slope in my Passat diesel and the ESP sensed the wheels spinning and gradually slowed it down until it stalled. I reversed off and knocked off the ESP and got up the hill easily.

Well, for those interested, I bought the car.

Although I have by no means been driving in a "spirited" manner I can definetly feel the change to RWD though.

The car has a lovely feel coming out of corners/roundabouts. I am however, quite thankful of the myriad traction control type things it has!

Excellent RRR, you are now in the elite ranks of course. 😉

Somebasic rules for you, which can be found in the handbook:

a) You don't need indicators. In fact, using them is not cool.
b) Parking parallel to the markings in parking bays is not only optional, its for nerds and french car owners.
c) ALWAYS drive in the outside lane.
d) ALWAYS pull away slowly and smugly from traffic lights
e) Audi's are the enemy, Fords are for kids.

I'm sure more will appear in this thread soon...

And where's the gratuitous pic?

Well I was travelling back from Norfolk on the A1 on Sunday and I was most perturbed to find I had a Honda on my tail and a Ford weaving about in front of me.

[i]I'm[/i] supposed to be the n0b head, surely?

Gratuitous photo??

Hmm well okay... If you insist ..

[IMG] [/IMG]

Duplicate gratuitous photo

RopeyReignRider - Member
Well I was travelling back from Norfolk on the A1 on Sunday and I was most perturbed to find I had a Honda on my tail and a Ford weaving about in front of me.

I'm supposed to be the n0b head, surely?

Everyone likes to challenge a BMW driver. The best way to pish them off is to pull over smiling snugly, only to zoom past at er, 70mph sometime later....

Nice looking car btw, its more impractical than mine, and should be posted in the thread I started this morning next door... <-------

Yep, you could be right!

Thanks Kryton, I've yet to figure out where the bike goes :-S

re praticality, it's pretty good in that unlike the saloon, it has folding rear seats. Also, the front seats fold all the way forward so installing a baby/ baby seat, for example, is supposed to be not too tricky..