[Closed] Car people: C-Max, tubro blown, not convinced…

depends how its "gone", the usual method of turbo death - afaik - is for the oil seals to go, and you end up with masses of smoke on acceleration, and oil consumption goes through the roof, but (a) its not an instant thing and (b) you'd still get boost.

having zero turbo effect sounds more like an intake pipework problem to me, like, for instance, a split intercooler pipe

of course it might be that the turbo shaft has failed in some way, but that's far less likely

disclaimer, I am not a mechanic, this post could be complete guff, etc

....C-Max.... ....Thoughts?....

Given my previous experience with the complete and utter ineptness that is the average manufacturer dealership service department, my "thoughts" are that they've "tweaked" something that won't cause too much damage but will make you bring the car back for costly "repairs".

You've already got your logbook service stamp, so take it to a local independent for any work to be done. And don't mention what's up with it, just ask them to fault-find.

N.B. in the above I'm assuming you've had it serviced/MOTd at a Ford garage.

Ta Flying Ox, don't need to be told what a turd I've bought. The money I've spent on this since we got it (AA Gold Warranty covers **** all when you need it) would have easily funded a VAG for example which we really wanted. But hey, you live and learn.

This was done at an independent, and my gut feeling is ineptness rather than them being a crook so far which might be as good a reason as any to take it elsewhere (although I'm not naive about these things, hence my checking here)

Intake pipework problems have been the cause before, a last minute Kwikfit (yes, we forgot about our MOT until last minute) job resulted in a cracked intercooler pipe (they were the ones that forced it on).

I've got no black smoke, no oil burning, engine sounds fine. It's just as if the turbo is off, hence me immediately thinking it's limp home mode that's kicked in :-/

Defo sounds like an air intake problem, especially with it driving quite normally off boost.

Ok, lets tackle the "No boost" bit first:

4 main causes:

1) Turbo is blown (seized shaft/bearings or failed due to bearing wear then imbalance resulting in catastrophic failure)
2) Compressor pipe work no longer conected to manifold (hose split, or off)
3) Exhaust wastegate (or VTG in this case) actuator failed or jammed open (insufficient exhaust energy through turbine to make boost

4) EMS has gone into "limp home" to protect the engine due to some other cause

Typically a full turbo failure is indeed accompanied with much smoke out of the exhaust (and sometimes a runaway engine) as the oil fed to the turbo bearing system can now leak freely into the exhaust and compressor housings. Often this sort of failure occurs after the turbo has been noisier (strong whistle) for a while (caused by the larger orbit of the less restrained compressor wheel in it's housing)

In any of those cases the EMS will set an appropriate error code in the OBDII system, that will tell you what it thinks the failure is. The simple check on the turbo condition is to remove the intake hose from the compressor, reach in a "twiddle" the compressor wheel around. It should spin freely, and only have approx 1mm of radial play. You should expect to see a small amount of oil in the inlet hoses (pre and post compressor) but not pools of oil!

for 3),When you turn the ignition on, or rev the car at idle, you should see the wastegate actuator and arm moving freely to control the VGT position (Don't force this with fingers / tools, it runs on a worm gear and will be damaged!) look for the bit attached to the compressor that looks like this:

[img] [/img]

If you can't see that moving at all, then either the actuator has failed (very very very unusual) or more likely the VGT system has siezed within the turbine housing.

Checking the compressor exit pipework and intercooler for splits or disconnected hoses should be simple, and often, if you rev the car at idle with the bonnet up you hear a massive whistle / rush of air sound from the leak!

Thanks Maxtorque, very comprehensive!

would have easily funded a VAG for example which we really wanted

Trust me, they are pretty sh*te on things going wrong prematurely and outrageous on cost as well, especially if you are thinking a Touran.

I'd have liked an Octavia Estate tbh but the Touran was very much on the list. I did consider a Accord/Avensis Estate too but I couldn't bring myself to own one of those while in my late twenties. C-Max was bad enough…

Edit, STW is pretty awesome. Also posted this on the C-Max owners club at the same time. Zero replies. I've had several already here 😀

Friend had a similar problem.. The garage did not put the air filter on properly. Worth checking.

Yeah but soon it will descend into an argument and you will forget what on earth your original post was about.

With a split pipe I would expect loads of sooty, black smoke out the exhaust when the revs get high enough to engage the turbo...

I thought that my turbo had gone on my old 307. It hadn't. It was the the sensor on the output side, that was showing full ouput and therefore not kicking the turbo in. New sensor and all good. The car was driveable in a flat non turbo kind of way

Edit, STW is pretty awesome. Also posted this on the C-Max owners club at the same time. Zero replies. I've had several already here

But what makes you think that anyone here has a clue what they're talking about? 😉

Which engine?

Turbo failure is not uncommon on the C-Max engine.

Right, I had a 54 plate cmax fitted with the 2.0 tdci engine and had exactly the same issue and it was caused by two things.......

1st was the dpf filter was blocked and also the eloys fluid that us injected into the dpf to help burn the carp off had run out. This fluid us meant to be replenished @ 80 or 85 thousand miles can't remember which.

2nd problem was the egr valve was blocked open causing all the carp which should get recycled to end up going into the dpf filter causing it to clog.

I should point out mine started with symptoms like yours occasionally and it would drop into limp mode which is as though you have no turbo but also limits the revs too. It became more and more frequent until it just died!

Hope this helps

Steve

Hey Steve, interestingly that's exactly what happened to mine not long after I bought it, I've had that exact same work done about 3 years ago… hmmm, suspicious of the DPF again now.

Basically a DPF car is not for us as we're only short trips most of the time. I was assured by the dealer it wasn't a DPF equipped car, next thing I know, DPF needed sorting and the dealer had gone out of business. I hate this car, I hate cars in general 🙁

Well I've got a few things to pursue anyway, will keep you all posted.

Always a second opinion in such a scenario.

Service depts in main dealers are replace everything at your expense outfjts rather than master technicians using their years of experience like you are led to believe....

don't need to be told what a turd I've bought

Yip. Toyota are some of the worst toe rags as well

Rockhopper - Member

Turbo failure is not uncommon on the C-Max engine.

Ford had problems with that engine, same one that goes in the Focus diesel too. I can't remember the cause but it's something to do with the turbo failing.

When you picked it up did the turbo work ?

Is the EML on ?

^^ this Cmax desiels have a recuring fault with the turbo, which i believe that Ford main dealers are aware of.

I thought that this was only on the 1.6 TDCI engines ? ( Same engine fitted in the Peugeot/Citroen range, Mazda, Volvo, MINI to name but a few )

The O.P.'s car is a 2.0TDCI.

So why are 2.0TDCIs popular with high miler mini cabbers?

If it was THAT fragile theyd go bust.

Renton,not sure if a 2004 TDCi C Max will have a dpf.I have a 2006 2.0 TDCi Mondeo and there is no dpf.

I also thought the 2.0 was supposed to be generally better. Gary - would you mind updating this thread once you know what the outcome it?

Joeegg I can guarantee that my 54 plate cmax had a dog filter!!

Ford changed the 2.0l Tdci engine from 54 onwards from the chain driven puma engine with no dpf to a pug/citroen 2.0l Tdci with a cam belt and a dpf. Same power and torque but better emissions for the stricter euro emissions. Hardly a step forward in reliabilty. Mondeo's didn't get the dreaded dpf till 07 but the cmax and focus had the dpf earlier or you could specify if you wanted one.

Possible faults could be the vacuum pipe to the actuator can split/rub through around the back of the engine or the ones by the oil filter housing
Could be a m.a.f problem (sometimes left disconnected )
Egr can stick

Personally disagree with hora's comments , some of us trained techs try to logically work out faults !

Ford changed the 2.0l Tdci engine from 54 onwards from the chain driven puma engine with no dpf to a pug/citroen 2.0l Tdci with a cam belt and a dpf

Is that CMax specific? I have a 2006 2.0TDCI estate and it has no dpf. It has the pug engine.

Incidentally, as far as the focus being a steaming turd, mine has been impeccably behaved over 85k miles. Maybe I'm just lucky.

My mum had the same problem recently after having the cambelt done on an A4 TDI. Turns out the bloke who did it hadn't put the pipework back on (christ knows why he took it off to do the cambelt) and thus it wasn't boosting properly. If a turbo goes, its usually smokey and makes a lot of noise.

I know you can get a DPF blanking plate for VAG which removes it. Might be one available for F(ix)o(r)r(epair)d(daily)s?

Hi guys, thanks for everything, I'm talking to the Garage this morning so will update then.

I thought that this was only on the 1.6 TDCI engines ? ( Same engine fitted in the Peugeot/Citroen range, Mazda, Volvo, MINI to name but a few )

There's a design fault on the 1.6, the boost pipe tends to split. A modified replacement is available - I know this because it happened to ours recently.

We didn't get the problems Gary experienced though - just a bit down on power and a sucking sound from the engine, so I guess it's something else.

Any news on this yet?

Pitcherpro always some good with the bad.

I think up until 07 you could specify if you wanted the DPF fitted or left off on the 2.0 Tdci. After 07 you had no choice as the euro emission regs made it mandatory to have it fitted. There are lots of companies that will replace the dpf when it fails with a dummy and modify the ECU so that the car thinks it's still fitted. The last time I checked it was about £1115 fitted at ford or 1015 supply only so approx 100 quid labour to fit it. The dummy can is about 200 quid fitted. You will also need the special fluid that is added to the fuel supply to help the dpf work properly if you have it replaced. Dpf's have an average life span of between 80 and 100k. Urban driving at low rev's reduces the life of Dpf's accordingly.

Right, Garage has confirmed Turbo is fine and well, have checked what they can but have put their hands up and said they're not kitted out to deal with it any further (can't do computer diagnostics) but have recommended an independent Ford diesel specialist across town.

Wife has collected it and driven it home, no engine management light anymore and reckons it's getting a good boost. I'm off out for a spin in the morning so I'll report back.

Gut feeling is one of the younguns hadn't bolted something on properly and in pulling it apart and putting it together again, they've sorted it. I hope so anyway.

Thanks again and I'll post up once I've driven it myself.

My Mundano did something simmillar, but the engine light was on. Just stuck in low power mode, garage recoded the injectors & all good. Well, as good as a 170k mile 52' TDCi can be. 🙂

If turbo hose goes you can usually hear a hissing sound by the way.
Anyhow glad it's (hopefully) sorted for you OP.

cheers inbred

Ok, update.

Driven and it's the same. So it's off to 'Harris On Ford' in Keynsham next week…

I'm not joking about his garage name either!

any news?

With a split pipe I would expect loads of sooty, black smoke out the exhaust when the revs get high enough to engage the turbo...

Argh, so the recommended 'specialist' had it all weekend, didn't contact us, didn't answer the phone and then still had the bonnet open and hadn't fixed it when I arrived Monday morning to pick it up. Baring in mind I had just returned a hire car and he knew I wasn't local, this was pretty poor form.

I don't know for sure but my suspicion is that he had only just started looking at it that morning. Eitherway, I drove it away as I had no choice, and have decided to just take it to Ford which is practically next to where my Wife works and is at least convenient. Very frustrating though!

However, I do know that the Turbo is fine and this second Garage found a fair amount of oil all over the back of the engine and there was quite a lot in the drip tray while he was 'working on it'.

*sigh*

If you're thinking of replacing, steer clear of the VW Touran. Big heap of sh*te they are, and costly when they (often) go wrong.

Mine has had at least £1,000 of repairs every time the bloody thing goes in for what is jokingly referred to as a 'service'.

The turbo is one of those things that's already been replaced.

I would strongly recommend against the Touran. Buy ANYTHING else.

Yeah unless the inlaws decide to buy us a new one, I can't see replacing it ending up any more economical than maintaining this one (they've offered but we want to avoid as we're hoping for house deposit help soon!)

Skodas seem to score well on reliability but it shows in the residuals. Octavia Estate would be nice but £££

Did think about leasing new when we got the C-Max but banked on long term ownership being the shrewder option given we were planning on children (and have since had one). If we were to replace the car now, that would be all of our saveable income gone so not really an option I want to consider.

*sigh* I chuffing cycle to work too!

Tourans are the same inside as any other VAG car really.

As for £000s of repairs every time it goes in - you may be being taken for a ride. Is the car fine until they find loads of things that are mysteriously just about to fail?

Skodas seem to score well on reliability

Again, same as Tourans underneath. Engines and running gear are the same.

Engines and running gear are the same.

I assumed this to be the case, yet when you look at driver power survys etc, Skodas are consistently top, Superb and Octavia, even older versions.

Tbh, I thought the Focus reliability looked ok which is why I bought the C-Max, turns out the C-Maxs are made in a different factory and have much worse reliability record than the Focus hatch despite same engine and running gear.

I hate cars.

I know that Seat were using older versions of engines than VW, when I test drove cars last at least. So maybe they let the VW brand take the hit on early issues, I dunno..

Still, a 2.0 TDI 140 is the same in a Skoda or a VW, afaik.

Or maybe as you say it's a factory issue. One of the biggest issues VW had was catastrophic engine failures when just driving along, caused by the oil pump - it was a dodgy design used in one factory, but it was one of the first big issues that started to tarnish the brand image.

I think they still are overall pretty reliable, but they had a few dramatic single issues. The injectors were the other problem on my car - they'd suddenly pack up without warning. Apparently took years of campaigning to get VW to issue a recall.

Right, I think we have a resolution! Well, mechanic to wife to husband translation anyway.

Two things disel vacuum pump needs replacing. Which is fair enough as a local garage cleaned and bodged it two years ago claiming it would do us 'a few months at best'.

Otherthing is Mass Air Flow something, I'm assuming sensor from a bit of googling. Anyway, reckon it'll be fixed tomorrow and could have been worse based on my OP…

Seems a bit steep at £400 including the diagnostics, but we've been let down by two independents now so sod it…

Not convinced by it being the mass air flow meter as if thats faulty then the car would run like a lumpy bag if poo all the ttime!!

Renton, interestingly, we did have it running like a lumpy bag of poo over the winter but I put it down to being so wet…?

I can image if the airflow metre is screwed, it would go into limp home mode which is exactly what it currently feels like?

we did have it running like a lumpy bag of poo over the winter but I put it down to being so wet…?

solution located 🙂

diesel vacuum pump wouldn't do it, that's just making vacuum for your clutch/brakes/etc

Renton, interestingly, we did have it running like a lumpy bag of poo over the winter but I put it down to being so wet…?

Diesels not affected by wetness like old petrol cars used to. And modern petrols should not be lumpy in the wet anyway, this isn't the 1970s 🙂

Ok I'm still not convinced that it will cure your problem!

Fingers crossed fir you though!!

Diesels not affected by wetness like old petrol cars used to. And modern petrols should not be lumpy in the wet anyway, this isn't the 1970s

Of course you'd think! But I did read some stuff online that the C-Max diesels don't like getting too wet…

Man, what a POS…