I presume lease cars do as well - does your deal include tyres then?
I pay for fuel and the lease that's it.
dubber, I have to say that (irrespective of the debate raging all around) in your particular position, leasing a car to sit on your drive seems a hell of a waste of money. Your money, your choice but your current system already works well from what I can see, have an old banger for occasional use, and don't be scared to splash out on a rental when you've got a big trip. You can do that a lot for the cost of a lease car.
More generally, bangernomics really is a good way to go for someone who doesn't need a reliable comfortable car for daily use. Once you need it for a commute, of course I can see the appeal of paying a bit more for reliability and comfort, but it's not a position I've ever let myself get into. My two vehicles cost £4400 in total to buy (plus a significantly smaller amount on maintenance) for ~10y use so far, I only got rid of the first because I emigrated, and the second looks like it will keep going pretty much indefinitely so long as I'm not scared to spend a few quid every so often.
This thread is daft.
If you want a new car, and you can beat the depreciation by leasing - do it.
If you want to own and justify a second hand car - great. But it's not a new car and doesn't have the benefits of.
I've had loads of s/h cars. They have always lost loads of money and cost a fair bit to run in terms of servicing and wear and tear. That doesn't mean you won't pick up a bargain every now and again. But it will be the subject of market forces in terms of value.
It should actually be about leasing versus buying.
[quote=rone ]If you want to own and justify a second hand car - great. But it's not a new car and doesn't have the benefits of.
Is there something other than shiny? Dead easy to justify, because it's significantly cheaper.
I've had loads of s/h cars. They have always lost loads of money
Well of course they do, all cars do, but the biggest hit is the first couple of years people leasing pay for.
Why anyone in their right mind would pay £xxx a month to rent a bland and dull Eurobox is beyond me! Oh but then it's new I guess? Sh*t but new!
Including maintainence, the extra fuel, insurance and depreciation (now minimal) the 9 year old RS4 avant we have works out cheaper per month than if we leased something new but boring like a Passat or Mondeo estate. Know which one I'd rather be driving. Each to their own I guess.
My experience of s/h is limited but my last was a Focus that I'd had new, sold to my Mum, then bought back some 5yrs later. It was a great car and well looked after and never missed a beat until an unexpected £800 MOT bill which I paid. Around the same time the clutch began to slip, it was due a belt change and it had started to struggle to start when cold. A mechanic friend had a look and narrowed the problem down to 3 or 4 things. He said it could be a cheap fix, or far more expensive. At this point I traded it in as it was going to cost far more than it's value to fix and I didn't have the cash to take the chance. It went to auction and someone will have bought a very tidy looking car for £1500ish that was about to cost a lot more.
We got my wife a 3yr old car a year ago for 12.5k. Had no end of problems with it, luckily fixed under warranty but it still wasn't just right (Had clearly been treated horrendously from new) and the Mrs lost faith in it. Just got rid at a fair old loss but before the warranty ran out. She's now in a new version of the last car and is very happy.
Some of the s/h cars bought by workmates are always in the garage (A4's seem the worst, especially around 10yr old). One had to replace the engine which then also blew a month outside the warranty!
You can be lucky with second hand but there's plenty of trouble waiting for you, especially after 6/7/8+ years old.
As much as new costs more it's worth it for us to have a couple of cars that need no thinking about, are great places to sit for 10k miles a year and turn in to another new car just as the gloss is fading. We've gone for PCP but same rules apply for lease.
If you're happy in your old car then great, just stop trying to convince us it could pass for a new car or that the chances of a decent bill are slim. Modern cars cost a lot to fix when things wear out.
Oh, and having been in my brother in laws Berlingo I'm happy to pay the extra to not make the 20 mile work commute a soul destroying experience. 😉
[quote=chestrockwell ]If you're happy in your old car then great, just stop trying to convince us it could pass for a new car or that the chances of a decent bill are slim.
I'm not - I'm suggesting that functionally there isn't a difference even if it's not as shiny, and that the amount you save is more than enough to pay for a few big bills. We're talking thousands a year difference in basic cost.
and that the amount you save is more than enough to pay for a few big bills.
That's dependent on quite a lot of variables though, no?
From my experience the money I saved would find a way of being spent so the big bills can cause a problem. I prefer the predictable monthly payment with no surprises route.
Lots of people couldn't care less about their car and that's fine. I do so would prefer to pay a bit more for a new one because new cars are ace. 8)
It also depends which lease car you're comparing to. You can get them for around £100 per month if you want something basic.
Leasing needs to be compared buying new not bangers.
Everyone has different attitudes to spending money, and experiences with cars. All I can say is that historically, based on the eight cars my wife and I have owned over the last 20 years (all second hand, typically 3-4 years old when bought, sold after 2-4 years), we saved by not leasing. We're very happy with this, even happier to have used the money saved to help pay off to mortgage.
You can be lucky with second hand but there's plenty of trouble waiting for you, especially after 6/7/8+ years old.
Depends if you buy well, research on common faults and then actually look after the thing once you get it. Most people just don't have a clue when it comes to this.
I always buy performance cars and normally you'll find that the owners of such cars care more about msintainence and looking after the thing than more mundane metal. You can easily spot the owners who don't. In over 20 years of buying performance machinery in the 5-10 yr old age range I've never yet broken down or had a horrendous bill that you couldn't consider routine maintainence or unexpected. And I've saved 1,000's over the years by driving rare and special cars, when I could have spent a lot more and had something bland and boring on lease.
You can't compare leas g to running bangers, but it does compare well I think to buying something around the £8-10k price point assuming that you need some sort of finance to buy that car.
The bank loan for our 330 plus VED and MOT would have been more expensive than leasing a GTi at the time we bought it. With hindsight maybe I should have leased something.
If the intention is to keep a car for a long time then buying is the way to go, if you get bored and want to change every few years (I guess I'm the latter) then leasing suddenly looks pretty attractive because the monthly cost is fixed and you beat depreciation.
In the case of the OP, I'd stick with your old car if it spends most of its life on the drive not being used.
I'm enjoying the fact that lease cars are all brilliant and perfect, and then the day you hand them back they become unreliable heaps of crap that will cost thousands of pounds a year in repairs. I didn't know that.
I'm enjoying the fact that lease cars are all brilliant and perfect, and then the day you hand them back they become unreliable heaps of crap that will cost thousands of pounds a year in repairs. I didn't know that.
We'll that's what the industry would have you believe - they need to sell cars after all, and what better way to sell a new car than to convince someone that by spending £1,000's on a brand new lease arrangement (that's carefully split into manageable monthly chunks to hide the true cost) that they're making a financially prudent decision and avoiding the certain financial ruin that a 'catastrophic' few hundred pound repair bill on a risky and unreliable 3 year old motor might bring?
[quote=wrecker ]
and that the amount you save is more than enough to pay for a few big bills.
That's dependent on quite a lot of variables though, no?
Well I suppose you could get a lot of big bills, but it's extremely unlikely - because you're saving thousands a year.
[quote=Drac ]Leasing needs to be compared buying new not bangers.
There is of course a middle way, which is what I'm comparing to - my car certainly isn't a banger (though it was on the cheap end of 3-4yo cars).
[quote=mindmap3 ]You can't compare leas g to running bangers, but it does compare well I think to buying something around the £8-10k price point assuming that you need some sort of finance to buy that car.
The bank loan for our 330 plus VED and MOT would have been more expensive than leasing a GTi at the time we bought it.
and when you'd paid off your bank loan you'd have an asset sitting on your drive, which you could continue to run, or sell if you want to. As discussed above, the ling price (if you want me to use anything else for comparison you'll have to give a link or provide prices) for a basic Focus is £200 a month, so £7200 over the course of 3 years. Here's a 2yo one: http://www2.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201510077602808 - the PX on a 5yo one of those is listed at £5k - so that's a £3.6k ownership cost (including VED) + cost of MOTs, leaving you £3.5k to cover those expensive bills. You'd have to be very unlucky to get anything like that on a 2yo car.
Dracs calculations are exactly where we got to with our Family car (Kuga) replacement decision. Notwithstanding accidental damage caused by the kids, the cost of getting a decent small estate / xc60-a-like vs lease for that purpose doesn't stack up. We'll be in the same "asset" position in a few years as we are now - we have an 8 year old no better than good condition Kuga in the garage which is worth £7k PX on a 2yo replacement.
Fine, but you'll have a second hand car with the associated maintenance. In any other area you'd expect to pay more for a superior product. A new car is superior to a similar second hand so will cost more. If you are happy to pay it, good. If not, great.
I'm enjoying all the people insisting that second hand cars never go wrong while ignoring all the examples of second hand cars that have gone wrong. 😐
Depends if you buy well, research on common faults and then actually look after the thing once you get it. Most people just don't have a clue when it comes to this.
Not necessarily. On the face of it my old Focus would have been a great buy as it had been in our family from new and been fully maintained. It was almost spotless inside and out. The clutch would be obvious to anyone with half an idea but the other issues could easily be missed.
To be fair our Kugas maintenance issues amount to one Alternator at £330. It kind of outweighs the lease costs - granted I may have been lucky...
Leasing needs to be compared buying new not bangers.
Wrong, leasing was purely devised as a way by the car industry to boost sales figures for the manufacturers.
It allows people who couldn't otherwise afford to buy a new car, yet feel that they simply must 'keep up with the Jones' to now drive around in a new (probably white) car and feel good about themselves. Until of course after a few months of ownership, the car is now not quite as white as when it left the showroom, and the Jones new nanny across the road has leased a new Mini that comes in an even whiter shade of white than her dazzling white teeth (which she's still paying off monthly), and certainly several shades whiter than your now 6 month old car. Damn and Bug*er !!!!
New cars never go wrong chest.
I have as many anecdotes for family and friends brand new cars going wrong terminally or worse - dealers refusing to fix their new cars on the warrnety ,,, as i do for second hand cars
You can get a brand new lemon as well.
As for your focus . It was at an auction - thats the clue to impending bills.
Dracs calculations are exactly where we got to with our Family car (Kuga) replacement decision. Notwithstanding accidental damage caused by the kids, the cost of getting a decent small estate / xc60-a-like vs lease for that purpose doesn't stack up. We'll be in the same "asset" position in a few years as we are now - we have an 8 year old no better than good condition Kuga in the garage which is worth £7k PX on a 2yo replacement.
One of the reasons we decided to change the car we got a year ago was that we got it at 3 years old, got a 9k loan over 5 years (12.5k paid) so at the end of the loan the car would be 8 years old with 100k+ on the clock and we'd be looking to replace it again. The value of our asset once the loan had been paid would realistically be around the amount we'd want as a deposit on the next so we'd be looking at a similar priced car (12.5k) with a similar loan required.
The new, higher spec version version costs about £100pm more than the loan but for that we get a much nicer car that we know the history of and one that should need minimal money spent on it during our ownership. The old one whould need more spending on it (Tyres, MOT's, belts, etc) during the 5 years so that eats in to the £100 saved. Money well spent in my opinion.
As for your focus . It was at an auction - thats the clue to impending bills.
Only because it was too old to go on the franchised deal forecourt. It will have been bought, put on any number of second hand forecourts and sold on. It will have looked great polished up at the garage but further costs were on the way.
New cars never go wrong chest.I have as many anecdotes for family and friends brand new cars going wrong terminally or worse - dealers refusing to fix their new cars on the warrnety ,,, as i do for second hand cars
Really? As many as second hand? If that's the case you have some very unlucky new car buying friends.
Wrong, leasing was purely devised as a way by the car industry to boost sales figures for the manufacturers.It allows people who couldn't otherwise afford to buy a new car, yet feel that they simply must 'keep up with the Jones' to now drive around in a new (probably white) car and feel good about themselves. Until of course after a few months of ownership, the car is now not quite as white as when it left the showroom, and the Jones new nanny across the road has leased a new Mini that comes in an even whiter shade of white than her dazzling white teeth (which she's still paying off monthly), and certainly several shades whiter than your now 6 month old car. Damn and Bug*er !!!!
I'm sure you didn't mean it but that post gives the impression you're sat behind your computer turning greener than the Hulk. Great generalization btw. 😉
No i have alot of friends that buy/rent/ new cars every other year......or at least used too... I imagine that kind of frivolity will be stopped now that the oil price is depressed.
Hence its skewed in the new cars non favour...
Slight segue if I may...
I've always bought ex demo soggy barges (A6's, 5 series, v70's), paid cash and kept them for around 5-6 years. I like the initial warranty, condition and general 'tidiness' and clearly I'm not overly bothered about 'brand new'.
I've always assumed buying this way 'has' to be cheaper than leasing and as above, I have the asset if my circumstances change.
However, that overlooks the fact that lease Companies may be negotiating vast discounts (more than the initial demonstrater depreciation?) which is factored into the value drop over the lease term though presumably, overall depreciation will be the same however the car is 'bought'.
What are people's thoughts on the pros and cons of lease vs buy in this circumstance please?
There are some weird comparisons here. Bangernomics (sub £2k cars) is quite clearly the most cost efficient method of motoring. It's not without its drawbacks but it's not even remotely comparable with leasing a brand new car. They are opposite ends of the motoring scale.
[quote=chestrockwell ]Fine, but you'll have a second hand car with the associated maintenance. In any other area you'd expect to pay more for a superior product. A new car is superior to a similar second hand so will cost more.
I pay for servicing for my car - which as noted above probably costs me less than servicing on a leased car. Otherwise the £1k DMF I mentioned and a few minor things. You did notice the £3.5k spare in my calcs above to cover those? A new car is more shiny - a s/h one fulfils all the other functions of a car in just the same way. If you're happy to pay thousands a year for shiny that's fine.
I'm enjoying all the people insisting that second hand cars never go wrong while ignoring all the examples of second hand cars that have gone wrong.
As above, new cars go wrong - I'm simply suggesting it's extremely unlikely you'll get anywhere near £3.5k worth of going wrong in 3 years (based on a Focus, clearly that amount is related to the cost of purchase/lease - for my Mondeo it would actually be ~£4.5k over 3 years)
Not necessarily. On the face of it my old Focus would have been a great buy as it had been in our family from new and been fully maintained. It was almost spotless inside and out. The clutch would be obvious to anyone with half an idea but the other issues could easily be missed.
Your old Focus was 8-10yo? Not quite comparable with my examples - at that price point you take your chances and if you get a lemon you just get rid and buy another one.
Something isn't quite adding up with your figures -exactly what car did you pay £12.5k for at 3yo, which you can lease for £250 a month?
The old one whould need more spending on it (Tyres, MOT's, belts, etc) during the 5 years so that eats in to the £100 saved. Money well spent in my opinion.
£6000 worth of tyres etc.?
[quote=boblo ]What are people's thoughts on the pros and cons of lease vs buy in this circumstance please?
Just do the calcs - how much did you spend, how much could you get px after 3 years, how much is the lease. Should be fairly simple, I've done some imaginary ones above. Your method is probably the most expensive way of owning a s/h car, should still beat the leasing deals if not by as much (you are correct about their purchase costs, though I'd have expected still more than a demo?) - but you're in much the same position in terms of expected bills as those leasing for those worried about such things.
@aracer. That's my view. I think they come out pretty similar in overall cost, mebbies buying just noses it though there's upside in owning the asset and downside risk in the (hopefully unlikely) event of a big bill.
I know overall it's not 'cheap' but that's not the aim.
Something isn't quite adding up with your figures -exactly what car did you pay £12.5k for at 3yo, which you can lease for £250 a month?
1 Series Sport. 12.5k, 9k loan at £170pm.
Replaced with 1 Series M Sport. 2k down then £280pm. It's not on lease, it's PCP with option to buy.
£6000 worth of tyres etc.?
No, but as mentioned above I would expect to pay more for a better car.
I've got a lease, currently on a £34k car. Soon I will be swapping for a £39k car.
To buy the car on a normal loan over the same 4 yr period would be approx £750 a month + interest.
Currently I pay £340 pm for the lease with full maintenance and insurance. So that saves me approx £20k over 4 yrs, which would roughly of being optimistic what the car would be worth after 4 yrs.
To me it's hassle free way of driving a nice car.
I've done buying cheaper cars outright before, PCP's etc and my current lease is the nicest ownership experience so far.
Agent007 seems very tense.
No, but as mentioned above I would expect to pay more for a better car.
Yes but it's often not is it, it's just a newer car, not better? My 9 year old RS4 is probably better in almost every respect than 95% of all new cars on the road. Yet for what it has cost me to buy and run on a monthly basis over the last few years, it works out roughly the same monthly cost as leasing a brand new Vauxhall Astra, and that's with me doing roughly 15k miles a year.
I've been curious about lease vs buying 3 years old, so I did the calculations for a BMW 320d Msport, 20K/yr. I didn't spend too long looking for the best deal, but hopefully the one I used is illustrative.
Assumptions: Lease new on 3+35 @20K/yr. Buy 3yr 60K, sell 6yr 120K, finance 3yrs @3%
Lease 422.24/mo, 3(422) + 35(422) = 16,045
Buy 3yr old, 15K purchase price, 435.95/mo, 36(434) = 15,694
Sell 6yr old, 7.5K, 15,694-7,500 = 8,194 depreciation+finance
Add in MOT, VED, and maybe a clutch/flywheel to the older car for maybe 2K, and you're at about 10K. For simplicity I've taken the cost of tyres, brakes, batteries, etc to be the same over both periods. There's likely to be some additional minor costs in the older too, but I don't think I can accurately estimate them.
So the lease will cost you an extra 6K over 3 years, or about £167/mo, or about 62% more. Of course, change the variables and assumptions and you can get something wildly different. It's up to the individual to decide it the costs are worth it to him, but in my mind the costs aren't "comparable".
My son was just looking into buying a used car around £10k with a loan to replace a 10 yr old punto ,until he found this - https://www.centralukvehicleleasing.co.uk/vehicle/choose_your_lease/71909/mercedesbenz/a_class/a200d_amg_line_5dr.html
£130 pm with £2k down (sell punto) 8k miles a year, he likes the fact its a new car and does not have to have a £10k loan over his head I kind of agree with him 🙂
yankee, I recently got a quite around £400/month for an m sport touring inclusive of tyres and maintenance. Of course the lease will cost more, but with the buy, at the end of the term you'd be driving a car with 120,000 miles on the clock compared with one with only 60,000. There will be a cost for that!
Careful that's not as awesome as an RS4.
Careful that's not as [b]awesome[/b] as an RS4.
Is it? Can it be?
Apparently not.
Ah, crossed wires. I thought you were hinting that agent007 was a "surfy" ex member.
Hahaha! That didn't cross my mind but see why you though that.
Yes but it's often not is it, it's just a newer car, not better?
Wrong. Our new car is basically a new version of the old but has more standard kit, inc nav and DAB. The ride has been improved, the engine is quieter and more efficient, the tax is less for slightly better performance and that's before you factor in it being new and not worn, scuffed, scratched, stained etc. It's a better car.
My 9 year old RS4 is probably better in almost every respect than 95% of all new cars on the road.
With the greatest of respect, the RS4 is not a great comparison as it's a different breed of car all together. What will a clutch cost you? A pair of tyres? Exhaust? Proper service?
I'm curious about leasing, but have a (well earned) reputation for being a bit neglectful with cars. What happens if you try to hand it back with a few scratches/dings etc? If, for example, you had an accident, would the repaired car be devalued on return to the leasing company?
Another one here who thinks comparing a lease to a S/H car is apples and oranges really, especially at 5+ years old.
