[Closed] Car engine re-map. Super chips?

Snake oil.

benz - Member

The same engine is used in higher spec model which has ~ 180 bhp. Other models in the range use the same drivetrain in ~ 240 bhp petrol models.

Same turbo, injectors, head, cooling system, exhaust, clutch, brakes, wheels, tyres etc ? [/devilsadvocate]. 🙂

We did this topic recently and got some feedback from a guy who made maps. The TL;DR was it might give you better figures, but the hidden cost was emissions went through the roof.

Many folks have had aucceasful remaps, my mates included. As above nit frying the sriverrain / clutch / dmf is important - need to know what parts are fitted - its not just about the engine block

As fir emissions there are many examples of detuned engines in certain models eg bmw 116d vs 118d so extra power isn't just making emissions worse

TL;DR was it might give you better figures, but the hidden cost was emissions went through the roof.

You wont have all the same ancillaries as the bigger engines. If the injectors are undersized then you get poor combustion and produce particulates.

Low down torque is basicly a function of boost pressure (you can only produce power if there is air there), more pressure means more NOx.

Emissions controll devices wont be big enough either. For example a higher capacity SCR would allow the engine to produce more NOx (and power) and meet emissions limits.

They're not cheating you by deliberately hobbling the engine.

maxtorque - Member
I love it how people spout on about how "manufacturers" map their cars. Well here's the crack, i've spent the last 30 years doing exactly that! There's a good chance that quite a lot of people on this thread actually drive a car with 'my' map in it! So, please, don't tell me the old "manufacturers leave loads of headroom" or "they map for the worst fuels" rubbish. Back in 1993, yes, maybe, in the last 10 years er,nope.
Lets discuss the 60mph thing. the original van will do 60mph in top gear, so the remapped one can't downspeed its engine any further. (unless you are also putting the drive ratio up too, which you ain't with a map)

The engine speed at 60mph before the map, is EXACTLY the same as the engine speed at 60mph after the map. And the power requirement is also exactly the same (unless you've somehow reduced the vans CdA as well). So if it's now doing 60mph with "less throttle pedal" then as i said, the pedal map has just been changed...

And lets talk about making torque at low rpm. Being a diesel, the engine is attempting to run lean (excess air ) at all times. The OEMs have thing like smoke limits and NOx limits, in fact, both of those have their own limiting maps, and these maps are the first to get chopped by the aftermarket tuners.

Without a turbo change, you can't get more air in at any given speed, so the only way to make more torque is to add more fuel.

About 5 years ago i was asked (as i run a company that consults on this sort of thing) to run a mapped car over the official drive cycle by a well known tuner (who shall remain nameless). 23 sec into the 22min drive cycle i pulled the plug and stopped the the test, because the mapped car was already 10x over the Particulate Limit.....

So, there are NO FREE LUNCHES in engine tuning these days, and as no aftermarket tuner i've ever met or heard of runs there cars over the official cycles, then i'm willing to bet my reputation that just about any mapped diesel car will be something like 10 to 100x more polluting than a std one.

From reading maxtorque's post again it strikes me that manufacturers are going to some pretty elaborate lengths to ensure diesels look clean.

I wonder what the comparative increases in emissions are for a chipped petrol.

As above, the only way to get more power is to burn more fuel. That requires more air, which requires more boost. Without hardware changes, you are limited to running it rich or crippling emissions controls.

Why do you need more power? 30 years ago, 150 hp would have been considered pretty decent. Personally, I would like a more powerful car, but that's because I enjoy driving like a dick. I'm a bit of a cheapskate though, so when I think about it rationally, driving like a dick isn't really worth the cost.

Why do you need more power? 30 years ago, 150 hp would have been considered pretty decent

Cars are heavier now, so we don't hurt ourselves when crashing them whilst glued to our phones on the way to the shops which are only 2mins down the road.

OP, good luck with this one. Guaranteed to get everyone all of a froth as it does each time the subject comes up.

And a 30 year ago standard is a bit irrelevant as this is now and that was then.

I've had a couple of remaps over the years and the perceived performance differences were marked. Whether this is 'worth' the apparent downsides is up to the OP. Perhaps if he does 10x fewer miles than someone with a stock injun goes some way to mitigate his heinous crime/particulate footprint?

I got a superchips plug in chip for my XR2i years ago. You should have seen it go with the extra 4-5 bhp it promised.

Had my mondeo mk3 remapped, rolling road, took it from 130 to 168bhp. More mpg, was awesome. Lasted 60k more until it dumped it's coolant and cooked it self at 80mph.

Would defo remap again. Just not an xr2i

Plugins aren't a remap are they? Just tricking the engine by knobbling it's sensors.

The downside of a remap is going to be higher emissions I think.

It's a family car FFS, think of your children!

Can you just press the accelerator a bit further down? And drive it a bit harder, I doubt you're driving to the current engine's limits.

I've had a superchips remap done by Falkland performance glenrothes on my VW Caddy 1.6tdi, before the remap it had 102bhp/250NM and after it had 148bhp and 325NM, my mpg dropped from an average of 60mpg to approx 56mpg, i still easily get more than 600miles from a tank of fuel so i'm happy to take a hit of 4mpg and acceleration is much better as i rarely have to drop a gear to overtake. Superchips used to be the official tuning partner to VW racing UK so i guess they know what they are doing.

Depending on make of car there are other makes of remap available.

Companies like ....

Revo
Apr
Shark performance
Oscarli.

I'm going to get my VRS stage 1 remapped at some point. 220bhp - 300bhp

I had a VW remapped with Shark. It was awesome.

Went direct to Volvo for my V60 to keep the warranty and get the gearbox adjusted to match.

Small but important point - don't forget to tell your insurers that you've increased the power. Do forget, then have an accident and they are likely to refuse cover, leaving you with a big bill, potentially life-changing for you if you happen to injure somebody and have to work the rest of your life to support them.

Police in the West Midlands are having a blitz on boy racers and impounding cars which don't have cover for modifications and this means anything that's not standard. The have taken over 600 cars off the road and street racing is much less.

It's a family car FFS, think of your children!

He's got a point, my child loves going in "Daddy's noisy fast car".

Only answer is to sell the diesel and get something less sensible, ideally with 6 or more cylinders or a huge turbo, or both.

Seems easier, and more reliable, to buy the sportier version of current car if you really need that extra oomph.

I have a Fiesta, so am obviously a speed demon, but if I wanted it to go faster, I'd just sell it and get a Red/Black Edition, Zetec S or an ST.

Interesting reading about remaps and emissions. I was thinking about getting my current car done (had a Passat pd130 done with excellent results).
How do the manufacturer approved remaps (Volvo - Polestar, Ford -Mountune) still maintain the required emissions?

How do the manufacturer approved remaps (Volvo - Polestar, Ford -Mountune) still maintain the required emissions?

Are they only petrol remaps? Pretty sure Mountune is not so sure about Polestar.

I think the emission restrictions are only on new designed cars so they can get approval. After you buy it it only needs to pass the MOT, and there aren't any NOx restrictions on diesels in the MOT.

As above, the only way to get more power is to burn more fuel. That requires more air, which requires more boost. Without hardware changes, you are limited to running it rich or crippling emissions controls.

Why do you need more power? 30 years ago, 150 hp would have been considered pretty decent. Personally, I would like a more powerful car, but that's because I enjoy driving like a dick. I'm a bit of a cheapskate though, so when I think about it rationally, driving like a dick isn't really worth the cost.

you don't need to use all the power all the time ...
My remap on the rolling road went from about 240 to 280 bhp but that was before I bought the car...
Never had a MOT issue on emissions and the extra 40 bhp feels like does make a difference when you want to drive like a dick...

When I'm not driving like a dick (which is mostly) I'm getting real world 50mpg on motorways in a 280 bhp car... with a nice balanced V6 diesel... most of the time the engine is in super-economy at 75 mph.. but it can just burn a lot [b]very[/b] quickly when you slam your foot down.

you don't need to use all the power all the time ...
My remap on the rolling road went from about 240 to 280 bhp but that was before I bought the car...
Never had a MOT issue on emissions and the extra 40 bhp feels like does make a difference when you want to drive like a dick...

When I'm not driving like a dick (which is mostly) I'm getting real world 50mpg on motorways in a 280 bhp car... with a nice balanced V6 diesel... most of the time the engine is in super-economy at 75 mph.. but it can just burn a lot very quickly when you slam your foot down.

Sounds like you have the same engine as me (l have a 09 A6 Allroad 3.0 TDI). Do you know who mapped yours?

Sounds like you have the same engine as me (l have a 09 A6 Allroad 3.0 TDI). Do you know who mapped yours?

[quote=sbob ]

Why do you need more power? 30 years ago, 150 hp would have been considered pretty decent

My car's a big, heavy Mondeo. It only has 123bhp (had when new, I suspect a few have escaped) which is plenty. The most power I've ever had in a car I've owned, though I've driven hire cars with a lot more horses. Sure it might be nice to have more power to overtake a few times a year, but it's rarely lack of power which prevents me going for an overtake. The rest of the time there is plenty enough power to make progress, I doubt having more would make the slightest difference to journey times.

Presumably the main reason to have more power is to drive like a loon?

[quote=molgrips ]I think the emission restrictions are only on new designed cars so they can get approval. After you buy it it only needs to pass the MOT, and there aren't any NOx restrictions on diesels in the MOT.

That's fine then - who cares how much pollution you're making as long as you pass the MOT?

Exakerly... only baby robins die don't Day.

[quote=aracer ]My car's a big, heavy Mondeo. It only has 123bhp (had when new, I suspect a few have escaped) which is plenty. The most power I've ever had in a car I've owned, though I've driven hire cars with a lot more horses. Sure it might be nice to have more power to overtake a few times a year, but it's rarely lack of power which prevents me going for an overtake. The rest of the time there is plenty enough power to make progress, I doubt having more would make the slightest difference to journey times.
Presumably the main reason to have more power is to drive like a loon?

Nice attempt at trolling with the last line there, but the peak BHP figure doesn't really tell you how fast it is in real day to day driving.

That's fine then - who cares how much pollution you're making as long as you pass the MOT

Fraction of car owners who buy a chip = vanishingly small.

Bigger fish to fry are available to choose from when saving the rainforest.

Fraction of car owners who buy a chip = vanishingly small.

That's not really the point though, is it?

[quote=retro83 ]Nice attempt at trolling with the last line there, but the peak BHP figure doesn't really tell you how fast it is in real day to day driving.

It wasn't - what is the huge benefit of more power (or more torque etc. if that's what you're getting) in real day to day driving?

[quote=stevextc]with a nice balanced V6 diesel
[quote=stevextc]Actually mines an 06 BMW

[split hairs]That'll be a straight six then[/split hairs].

[quote=aracer ]retro83  » Nice attempt at trolling with the last line there, but the peak BHP figure doesn't really tell you how fast it is in real day to day driving.

It wasn't - what is the huge benefit of more power (or more torque etc. if that's what you're getting) in real day to day driving?

Err, use your imagination! Joining busy NSL A-roads with short/uphill/no slip roads etc.

What is the huge benefit of more power (...) in real day to day driving?

Huge benefit - maybe not. I've had a pickup/4x4 mapped to improve how it tows and a camper van mapped as it lacked the grunt to get up hills on the motorway without dropping down a gear. Both greatly improved the car in day to day use.

My daily driver has been mapped and gave an extra 60bhp (with some supporting mods), is there a huge benefit? No, not really. Is it more enjoyable to drive? Yes, worth every penny.

[quote=retro83 ]Joining busy NSL A-roads with short/uphill/no slip roads etc.

Using my imagination, I should think the peak BHP is important in that situation. Can't even remember the last time that was an issue though (and I regularly make a trip where I'm joining a NSL DC with very short slip roads).

I can understand it might make a difference in something underpowered (which could include towing) - but that's not what people on here seem to be talking about.

How does more 60bhp make your car more enjoyable to drive?

[quote=aracer ]retro83  » Joining busy NSL A-roads with short/uphill/no slip roads etc.

Using my imagination, I should think the peak BHP is important in that situation. Can't even remember the last time that was an issue though (and I regularly make a trip where I'm joining a NSL DC with very short slip roads).
I can understand it might make a difference in something underpowered (which could include towing) - but that's not what people on here seem to be talking about.
How does more 60bhp make your car more enjoyable to drive?

No peak BHP is not relevant at all because I'm not going to sit the car at 5.5K RPM then drop the clutch and buzz it round to the redline every time I need to slot into a gap. It scares my nan in the passenger seat.

What I' m getting at is that the spread of torque over the rev range is far more relevant. Thus your comment that 123BHP is fine even in a large car is not meaningful. You could have two completely different engines, both with 123BHP that drive totally differently.

For example I have 82BHP in a small car and it's not good enough. Equally I had the pre-facelift version of the same car, which also had peak power of ~80BHP but was absolutely fine to drive. They changed something to improve the CO2 which meant it feels very very flat at low-mid RPM i.e. the range you normally drive around in.

The rest of the time there is plenty enough power to make progress, I doubt having more would make the slightest difference to journey times.

Presumably the main reason to have more power is to drive like a loon?

More powerful cars are just nicer to drive a lot of the time.

I've got a 1.4 Fiesta with 94bhp and 2.0 Leon with almost three times that power.

The little Fiesta is a fun little car but you have to absolutely rag it a lot of the time. On a short motorway slip road - unless you want to be one of the people that joins the motorway at 45mph - you have to be flat to the boards in 2nd and 3rd to get some decent acceleration. Changing lanes on the motorway takes a bit of forward planning too

In the more powerful car its just easier. You put you foot down a little bit and it gets up to speed no fuss. Its got plenty in reserve. You can match speed changing lanes on the motorway really easily. Its just easier and nicer to drive in almost all situations

OP here.

The reason for wanting a bit more poke (specifically more torque lower in the rev range) is to allow an all-round easier driving experience without 'ragging' the car. A re-map is also notably cheaper than a new car.

My question was specifically about whether anyone had used a particular provider of re-maps and their experiences of same.

More torque would also be handy as my pedal assist bike is a bit heavier than my old one....

That's not really the point though, is it?

What was the point then?

My question was specifically about whether anyone had used a particular provider of re-maps and their experiences of same.

So I've had a Bluefin from Superchips before (its a little hand held device that uploads the map through the OBDI port). Its easily reversible in a couple of minutes and you can upload it again at anytime. Car had zero issues and I ran the remap for a couple of years

Made a big difference to mid range power.

Superchips were easy to deal with.

My remap on the rolling road went from about 240 to 280 bhp but that was before I bought the car...
the extra 40 bhp feels like does make a difference

If it was done before you got it, how do you know it feels different?

what is the huge benefit of more power (or more torque etc. if that's what you're getting) in real day to day driving?

About the same as 10mm extra travel or 100g lighter forks or .... ???

Using my imagination, I should think the peak BHP is important in that situation. Can't even remember the last time that was an issue though (and I regularly make a trip where I'm joining a NSL DC with very short slip roads).

I can understand it might make a difference in something underpowered (which could include towing) - but that's not what people on here seem to be talking about.

How does more 60bhp make your car more enjoyable to drive?

240 to 280 doesn't stop you ... it simply makes it more effortless and smoother and the fact you only need to put 50% of the available power down.

As retro say's its not really about peak BHP anyway... mine rarely approaches it ... and when it does more often I'm just clearing away the cobwebs in 2nd or 3rd (given the car often sits a couple of weeks)

That's fine then - who cares how much pollution you're making as long as you pass the MOT?

Also you can't really say "my car has enough as I've hired cars with more"....
It doesn't really work like that as there is a lot of adjustment ... when I hire cars they feel horribly under-powered... to me having to use the bottom 50% of the gas pedal just to overtake FEELS underpowered

The fact is I barely touch the power .... it's just having the excess is good so your not running at full the whole time... My car has 155k on it.... the engine is nearly broken in now 😀 as its never really stretched.

Its like you ride the same trail with some crap forks and some really plush ones... or with or without a dropper etc. or single speed vs 1x something... you could probably do a lap at Swinley on rigid forks faster than a mid travel bike... and if that's what gives you a nice feeling then go for it... (Saturday there was a girl on a Spectral riding with a guy on a CX bike - how mismatched the bike were.. I don't know about the riders)

the bloke on the CX might say... who's the point of all that suspension and shape shifter .and the dropper... I can ride round on my CX bike.... but I'd have quite liked an hour on both...
Equally I could have been riding my HT myself ... but I made a choice not to... some day I might even hire an bike for a day...

The main issue with diesels are all the mis-sold ones... mine is used on NSL and motorways and any shorter I'll take a bike (unless I need carrying space etc.) ... on the other hand I see plenty of people pedalling 160mm+ Enduro bikes round Swinley... if they were training I'd understand it but they are obviously NOT training... based on the fact they can't ride even half decently...
My brother is a perfect example... he got mis-sold a Remedy 8 .... he doesn't want to point it downhill nor does he have the skills and he's not fit enough to cycle it uphill ... but someone sold it to him.

The girl riding the Spectral seemed the same .. why pedal round a heavier long travel bike if you don't want to point it downhill??? and as we often sit at the new trail feature that is perfectly navigable on a full-on XC bike (and see plenty fly off it on them) loads of people are riding long travel bikes and can't even do the small drop offs....

Of course DH is a great spectator sport and sells bikes... and some great tech filters down and the same from XC but it seems a lot like diesel mis-selling ... I use mine or the correct purpose.. technology has filtered from F1 and WRX but I'm not driving a F1 or WRX but I get a super efficient engine that is also powerful and a pleasure to drive and in its right environment very clean to drive.

My daily driver has been mapped and gave an extra 60bhp (with some supporting mods), is there a huge benefit? No, not really. Is it more enjoyable to drive? Yes, worth every penny.

This is the point for me... it just feels nicer .. it's like having good small bump suspension... you can live without it and your arms and legs take the vibration but on a everyday sort of thing its just more enjoyable .. same as not bottoming out the suspension for 3 hours in a row... it's nicer to have 10-20% you don't need than constantly bottom out ...

[quote=retro83 ]It scares my nan in the passenger seat.

She's scared by how much you rev the engine rather than how fast you accelerate?

What I' m getting at is that the spread of torque over the rev range is far more relevant. Thus your comment that 123BHP is fine even in a large car is not meaningful. You could have two completely different engines, both with 123BHP that drive totally differently.

True, but it's a turbo diesel like the OP's and what most other people seem to be talking about remapping (the rest seem to be cars which already have lots of power and I doubt are short of torque) and I doubt I have more mid range torque than he does.

You can't actually do a lot with the little cars short of power which are the only ones which seem to have a real problem, which is presumably why nobody here is discussing remapping those? Though I'm a bit dubious about 94bhp not being enough in a Fiesta - that's what my Dad's Cavalier (the model replaced by the Vectra for those too young to remember) had and that went plenty fast enough. I certainly never had any problem accelerating that onto motorways - though nowadays when changing lanes I tend to just carry on without touching the cruise control (admittedly I do tend to use forward planning for that).

[quote=stevextc ]About the same as 10mm extra travel or 100g lighter forks or .... ???

Thanks for the clarification 😆

p.s. found the receipt and it was MOTECH in Wellingborough ....

Don't know if they are better/worse but I don't have any complaints and the remap is very pleasant to drive AND economical when you don't floor it

Aaaaaand they're off! The arguing has begun. These threads always end up like this. Two disparate groups angrily exchanging their polarised views. Ah well, such is STW 🙂

[quote=stevextc ]240 to 280 doesn't stop you ... it simply makes it more effortless and smoother and the fact you only need to put 50% of the available power down.
...
to me having to use the bottom 50% of the gas pedal just to overtake FEELS underpowered
...
The fact is I barely touch the power

So the issue is the lack of mobility in your right ankle? 😉

at 70-75 its producing next to no pollution because its barely idling...

What do the test results say? I suspect you'll find it's doing a lot more than idling.

Compare that with my Mum's last Fiat 500 on the same trip it would consume 1/2-1l of oil ... there is no way that is producing less pollution.

You could of course compare with a non-polluting car with a standard map, but I guess that wouldn't help your point.

Also you can't really say "my car has enough as I've hired cars with more"....
It doesn't really work like that as there is a lot of adjustment ... when I hire cars they feel horribly under-powered...

Now you're comparing apples and chalk - I'm talking about having hire cars with a lot more power than mine (I've had a V6 Vectra and a sporty Alfa estate), or some with just a bit more, and I've never got back in mine and felt it was underpowered - and yes I did drive the hire cars in the way you're supposed to drive hire cars. You're presumably hiring small cars which maybe are a bit underpowered, but then when you talk about adjustment it's you who's adjusted to what you have.

So the issue is the lack of mobility in your right ankle?

You could of course compare with a non-polluting car with a standard map, but I guess that wouldn't help your point.

Now you're comparing apples and chalk - I'm talking about having hire cars with a lot more power than mine (I've had a V6 Vectra and a sporty Alfa estate), or some with just a bit more, and I've never got back in mine and felt it was underpowered - and yes I did drive the hire cars in the way you're supposed to drive hire cars. You're presumably hiring small cars which maybe are a bit underpowered, but then when you talk about adjustment it's you who's adjusted to what you have.

Exactly but it's not small cars as such....its more the fact they need to be revved hard to even move...
We had a Nissan MPV with the clutch matched to the 1.6l petrol and it barely got up the 45 degree drive at the vacation villa... the owner had a Fait 500 (by chance) and didn't even TRY and get it up the drive... we stayed in the same place this year with a 2l diesel MPV that had no problem on the 45 degree slope but the owner still couldn't get their Fait up....

The OH just swapped from a 2.2 diesel to 2l petrol and she is constantly saying it was a mistake... I don't think it is as her work has changed so most of her driving is <5 miles so a diesel would be stupid but she says it just feels gutless on the motorway... and her 13 yr old diesel with 225,000 miles was much better on motorways...

and yes I did drive the hire cars in the way you're supposed to drive hire cars

When you own a high powered diesel (or after the first few weeks) it actually stops being something you drive like a hire car and it just becomes effortless to drive.. it's like the old petrol Jags etc. except it uses about 1/4 of the fuel.... in fact my diesel uses less than the 2.2 Honda 2.2 did by a fair margin and way less than my old 2L petrol (which wasn't meant to be economical)... ignoring tank sizes (which I don't think are that different) I'd get to my Mum's in the 306 Gti6 on a tank and have just enough left to potter about to the petrol station... the BMW I can drive all the way there .. drive it every day and rive back and fill it up when I come off the M25 before going home...

The V6 Vectra from memory was in 2.5 form only 170ps... so a lot less than half the BMW diesel and less than 1/3 of the torque.... so taking of apples to chalk...

The thing I think your missing is the smooth but effortless power delivery a big tuned diesel delivers
More akin to the big V8's but without the inherent instability the V8 creates.. it's like comparing a set of Revelations to some Lyrics or Fox 36's .... yep its way better than a entry level tk coil... but its not really a replacement for serious enduro.... (you can if you want but you'll feel a lot more beat up and the end)

My dad used to have a big V8 Jag and I never understood way he drove it so slowly... but now I do.. its the effortless torque that feels nice and means as a driver it feels effortless....

[quote="boblo"]Aaaaaand they're off! The arguing has begun. These threads always end up like this. Two disparate groups angrily exchanging their polarised views. Ah well, such is STW
The OP wanted to know about remaps...

I don't really care what anyone else drives....
I know what I put into the car and unfortunately know what my mum had to put into her small petrol when used outside its environment...

The only polarised group seem to be those who doubtlessly thought diesels were fantastic when they got told they produced less pollution... and then due to the crappy way the tests are run and cars sold have now polarised the opposite way...

As far as I'm concerned if I had to drive in towns I'd drive a small petrol.... as I hardly do any of that I drive a big diesel... most of my riding is suited to a mid-travel... if I lived elsewhere I'd ride a completely different bike... of course people are free to buy downhill rigs and ride them round XC courses that are their only local riding.... or ride their XC down FW DH if they so desire... but I prefer to use the right tool for the job.

unfortunately know what my mum had to put into her small petrol when used outside its environment.

You know that not all small petrols are like that don't you?

but I prefer to use the right tool for the job.

280bhp isn't the right tool for any job except perhaps towing huge loads or some sort of racing. You like it, fine, but don't go on about tools for jobs. Admit it, you just like going fast.

Asside from the remap car. Who holidays at the top of a road with a 100% gradient (what a 45 degree slope would be)

Has anyone got the source for the 'Maxtorque' post on page 1? It contradicts everything I've read about remapped engine emissions (not that's there's much) and ties in with a load of horror stories of MOT failures which don't seem to happen in real life.

For my sins I had the 140bhp VW CR engine in my Exeo mapped to 180bhp, it was a cheap back-street map (the lad proudly told me it was a hooky REVO map). He was fairly honest about it - the differences between my car and the version that would I have been 180 out of the box was a smaller turbo, smaller injectors and slightly smaller brakes (the 180 is a bit quicker too end, but as I rarely drive more than 80 and my brakes are excellent it didn't seem a problem).

This is where it went above my head a bit - but this is how I understood it these days maps are "3D" so there's a lot more to it than just engine speed and load at play. At a constant 70mph the engine will be doing largely what it always did - chugging along doing 50+ mpg (he said it would be 2/3% more effecient because of fine tuning but I'm not so sure) it only when you really floor it (throttle pedal down, high engine speed) when it will do whatever it does to make it faster. So as per 99% of the time, more fuel (which I assume more emissons) when you're 'giving it some'.

Longevity wise I was told if you drive like a nutter all the time it will wear turbo, injectors and engine in general at a higher rate than if you drove a standard engine like a nutter all the time, but if you drive as you always do it'll be slightly kinder on your engine and it all sort of balances out.

And the fun police will along soon to stop any other non approved forms of enjoyment... 🙁

You know that not all small petrols are like that don't you?

Well that one was particularly crap but non of the small <1.2 Turbo's are designed to do 200,000 miles... not just the engine but the whole car is made to fail like so many modern disposable items lil printers and washing machines etc.

280bhp isn't the right tool for any job except perhaps towing huge loads or some sort of racing. You like it, fine, but don't go on about tools for jobs. Admit it, you just like going fast.

I got over fast years ago.... in terms of 0-60 its not much faster than most hot hatches.and 0-30 there are quite a few 1.6L would beat it.. 50-80 it is effortless though... when I was younger I had quite a few fast cars... I thought diesel was for granddad's....

Now if truth be known I like the idea i could go fast if I wanted .... I just choose not to 😀
I could get the speed limiter removed for example but given I don't usually go past 50% of the limited speed it seems a bit pointless....I could have the M-Sport suspension and even have a limited slip diff fitted and .... but mostly its just a sort of latent power that makes it nice to drive.

It is REALLY nice to drive.... in a grown up sort of powerful car way more than my younger years cars. Its much more civilised and doesn't seem to be trying to jump forwards the whole time ... My previous tuned hot hatches were for example a nightmare in a traffic cues... you let your foot of the clutch and the car wanted to leap forwards... the big diesel just handles it all in a very civilised way.... and at the end of a 300 mile drive you step out feeling like you just drove 10 miles...

Asside from the remap car. Who holidays at the top of a road with a 100% gradient (what a 45 degree slope would be)

My brother has a mini (original) in Ibiza and he can't even get up the road to the drive and his moped needed pushing to get up the drive! The 2l Jeep this year got up no problem though.... the 1.6 petrol last year... lets just say won't have the clutch long... indeed it's probably dead by now

Actually the whole hill has the makings of a great DH track.... 😀

Maxtorque posts on here and pistonheads. His is a pretty good realistic on remapping.

I first met Maxtorque about 12yrs ago when he was building his WRC-a-like car

If he says it, it's right when it comes to this kind of stuff.

[quote=stevextc ]The Fiat is meant to be a standard non-polluting car .. except it isn't designed to last or be driven at 70 mph for extended periods.... I'm sure nipping into the local town and back it was very economical and non polluting.... but on the motorway it's running above it's comfort zone the whole time and as it gets hotter it gets worse.

Sure, but that still doesn't make it a valid comparison - the correct comparison is the diesel which isn't remapped. Or maybe just mine which has half the power of yours before remapping, but still cruises effortlessly on the motorway.

Exactly but it's not small cars as such....its more the fact they need to be revved hard to even move...
...
The OH just swapped from a 2.2 diesel to 2l petrol and she is constantly saying it was a mistake...
...
When you own a high powered diesel (or after the first few weeks) it actually stops being something you drive like a hire car and it just becomes effortless to drive.
...
The thing I think your missing is the smooth but effortless power delivery a big tuned diesel delivers

I think you're missing the point that I own a diesel, so I know about the effortless power delivery - because you don't need a big one, let alone a remapped one to get that.

Out of interest... what is the premium increase for chipping/remapping?

I was toying with the idea of getting an MX5 and a supercharger... but that was getting a bit silly for insurance 😉 Thinking of other ways to get my jollies!!!

like lots of things it depends on he driver - 40yo Man 2 kids and diesel estate, didn't make a difference. 18 year old with a chipped Focus ST may well get done dry and hard.

I was toying with the idea of getting an MX5 and a supercharger... but that was getting a bit silly for insurance

A friend has just that. It's bonkers mad!
Insurance is £250 ish for a 50yr old living in London.

I often wonder when threads like this appear, the Power Outputs and Max Power Outputs...

During any typical day, where and how would anyone use 280hp?

It's a question I ask myself because if I hazard a guess about how much power I use in a typical day it's probably about 70-90hp... and for me that's quite enough.

Emissions wise it'll be the same as the stock car if driven in the same way, though I do wonder if NOX emissions would go up due to higher torque.

I found that in ECO mode the gearbox seemed to shift at the same points and fuel economy was just as shocking afterwards as before.

(V60 diesel, went from 190bhp to 220(?) and a wedge more torque with Polestar)

Flaperon - Member

Emissions wise it'll be the same as the stock car if driven in the same way,

Assuming egr/dpf/cat deletes aren't performed.

During any typical day, where and how would anyone use 280hp?

That's not the point though. If you have more power you can drive more slowly. Anyone in a small, feeble, boring car tries to overtake you, you can show them who's boss!

Emissions wise it'll be the same as the stock car if driven in the same way, though I do wonder if NOX emissions would go up due to higher torque.

They'll reduce EGR which will affect it at normal driving speeds, and they may advance injection timing which may also increase NOx. Probly reduce particulates though.

During any typical day, where and how would anyone use 280hp?

Well I only have 250hp and 340 torque things. I use them everyday on my commute. Not for long but at some point, prob 5 miles or so it's nice just to use it.

The rest of the time I never really use more than about 100hp. In fact most of my 45mile commute can be done using about 30hp, but then it does use about 150 torques instead.

Torques make a car enjoyable to drive power is always top end revving and helps pulling at high speed.

Be carful what your looking for...

but this is how I understood it these days maps are "3D" so there's a lot more to it than just engine speed and load at play. At a constant 70mph the engine will be doing largely what it always did - chugging along doing 50+ mpg (he said it would be 2/3% more effecient because of fine tuning but I'm not so sure) it only when you really floor it (throttle pedal down, high engine speed) when it will do whatever it does to make it faster. So as per 99% of the time, more fuel (which I assume more emissons) when you're 'giving it some'.

My 3L diesel is more efficient at 70 mph with the remap the extra torque means it goes into the super economy mode mostly... (There being 3 main modes in the 3D space....) The factory one is more efficient at a constant 56 mph... because that's either the speed people drive on motorways OR the test the regulators devised! (pick one)

As soon as I go up a hill it slips to the more normal mode... and unless I really hammer it it's in "normal mode" (yep as you say its more of a 3D space but I see the distinct changes on the instantaneous mpg... )

The extra torque seems to let it select the more economical mode which is in the non tuned engine used when using engine braking going downhill.... and 70mph on the flat is more or less the weight of my foot and shoe.

bikebouy - Member

I often wonder when threads like this appear, the Power Outputs and Max Power Outputs...

During any typical day, where and how would anyone use 280hp?

Without context 280 is just a number. Why would anyone need a house with six bedrooms, that's just selfish. Well maybe they've got six kids. In a 2200kg estate 280bhp /300 lb·ft is just about the right amount of power to have nice usable performance.

"I can't understand why anyone would want more than I have" just kind of hints at jealousy.

The new "entry level" Tesla has 260bhp, 317 lb·ft (430 N·m) and weighs 1900kg. Seems like a gratuitous, you might even say dangerous amount of power for a family car unless you want to drive like a tool but I don't think we'll hear any criticism about it.

I think you're missing the point that I own a diesel, so I know about the effortless power delivery - because you don't need a big one, let alone a remapped one to get that.

You own a diesel with half the power so how are you comparing ??

Its like riding the same trail with a 100mm and a 160mm and the bloke with 100mm has the fork set hard, gets to the end and say's I only used 90% of my 100mm travel so your 160mm is just 60mm wasted ... you don't need it because my 100mm fork only used 90mm

The difference being the 160mm fork had small bump sensitivity, good ramp up... but the 100mm was just set high pressure and LSC failed right up and provided a horrible ride

I'm not saying a smaller diesel is a horrible ride.... I'm just pointing out that comparing a 140 bhp with x nm to a 280 bhp with x nm means the mid range etc. are completely different just as a petrol turbo with 140 bhp and X/1.5 nm of torque is different.

In my case the engine was 240 and went to 280 ... torque obviously increased ad the difference is it feels nicer in the mid ranges.... no EGR deletion, no DPF removal...

Another way to see this from the other side is your legs stay the same....but you change from a 5 speed 11-26 or a 11-40 cassette to a 10 speed 11-40 ... the 5 speed 11-40 is full of holes... but the 11-40 is much better...

For most people they prefer the 10 speed... even though the range is the same as it has less jumps and they can get a decent cadence. With more torque and horsepower the engine delivery is just more smooth...

You can argue a single speed is all that is strictly necessary and it's [u]mostly[/u] true but the extra gears can make riding more pleasant. In the same way the extra HP/TQ just make driving more pleasant ... and the engine is taking it easier to deliver the same

I'm not jealous, far from it. Buy whatever you like..

My question is a simple one, out of those 280 horses under the bonnet.. how many do you actually use in a normal daily drive ? My guess is about 25%
I maybe wrong here but aren't there some super cars that switch off half the cyclinders of the engine when cruising ?

I've got a diesel engined SUV thingy ATM, and apart from a stab of the go peddle at junctions, it'll cruise along barely using any input from me. But I'll admit I drive like a grandad in his slippers.

Without context 280 is just a number. Why would anyone need a house with six bedrooms, that's just selfish. Well maybe they've got six kids. In a 2200kg estate 280bhp /300 lb·ft is just about the right amount of power to have nice usable performance.
I can't understand why anyone would want more than I have" just kind of hints at jealousy.

There is this 😀 but its mainly lack of understanding that the majority of the benefit is the part you DON'T use...

6 bedrooms and 6 kids is one thing but 6 bedrooms 4 kids and 6 bikes is another. The estate agent might call it a bedroom but obviously it's a bike room with large screen TV hooked yup the the trainer...

The fact is the ability not to pack each bedroom with beds is nice to have...of course if you live in a 1 bed flat with 6 kids that might make you jealous

The new "entry level" Tesla has 260bhp, 317 lb·ft (430 N·m) and weighs 1900kg. Seems like a gratuitous, you might even say dangerous amount of power for a family car unless you want to drive like a tool but I don't think we'll hear any criticism about it.

What's not to like.... how many bikes does it carry and does it come with a pull out bed... can I stand up inside whilst working on my bikes.... sounds ideal... can you charge these in the BPW car park or do I need to buy a new one to get home???

bikebouy - Member

I'm not jealous, far from it. Buy whatever you like..

My question is a simple one, out of those 280 horses under the bonnet.. how many do you actually use in a normal daily drive ? My guess is about 25%

Depends when the engine delivers peak power. Generally somewhere around 70/80% of the rev range. Maybe an overtake, maybe a junction exit, whatever. If you regularly overtake you're probably more likely to be using peak power in a 120bhp car than 300bhp.

I maybe wrong here but aren't there some super cars that switch off half the cyclinders of the engine when cruising ?

That's true. It's been around for ages. I drove a dodge ram in 2004 iirc which could do that.

My LWB T5 had 174bhp, and pulled like a train. 150bhp in a much smaller and lighter car seems adequate.

It didn't have 6 bedrooms mind, or any kids.

150hp is fine for pretty much any family car. We used to have a VAG diesel with 140hp

It delivered all the power in a very narrow range and was therefore very annoying to drive, it didn't need more power, just could have done with a broader power range.

Mrs FD has one of the 100bhp fiestas very easy to drive, plenty of low down torque for overtaking the only time it suffers is at motorway speeds when it struggles with power.

My Volvo was 200bhp..trust me, it needed it because it was quite a heavy lump.

My fiesta was 150 and was very nippy.

My mates panda was lighter still and 100bhp, very rapid but made out of crisp packets and sticky tape.

Depends on the car really.

FunkyDunc - Member

150hp is fine for pretty much any family car.

If it has loads of torque. Like......

a VAG diesel with 140hp

My question is a simple one, out of those 280 horses under the bonnet.. how many do you actually use in a normal daily drive?

I drive a 4.0 v6 Prado with 280HP. To be honest it takes most of that power to get out of a junction 🙂