[Closed] Car drivers - what is your problem?

Cougar - Member
Well, it's got to be one or the other, or you have a particularly atypical demographic of riders around you. Or you're telling porkies, I suppose, but I assumed not.

The only time I have seen motorcyclists filtering has been on the M8 in and out of Edinburgh at rush hour during the winter when the traffic is doing 50/60mph and filterers are doing at least 20mph+ more than that.

They may have a deathwish or think themselves superhuman, but I must admit to being startled by their riding (and I check my mirrors regularly).

Atypical, maybe, maybe not?

Cougar - Member

You know, you're not doing much to support your case.

What you saying? I don't have a case? Car drivers are not cocks?

Don't ever take up riding a powered bike chum, you'll not live long.

Been riding bikes for more years than I care to remember, best advice I offer anyone, ride em like you're invisible, because for the most part you are, cock car drivers use peripheral vision so much and it doesn't recognised bike shapes as a threat to their paint work or the sanctity of their little castle on wheels.

So wether you're filtering or just riding along you need to expect them to pull out, turn left and cut you off exit a roundabout and take you with them having overtaken you on it.

I recently gave up the bike, one close call too many, it's too busy and the drivers are too unaware and definitely not bike aware and as to riding a road bike, you couldn't pay me even if i had ceased with the hetracil.

Just went to the last page I'd read there.. TJ, ta for that helpful and positive comment about me needing to improve my observation skills. I'm not infallible but the fact that I checked all corners, looked at the traffic all round me and was flashed out by someone who made me a space meant I felt fairly secure. For the record I also had a White transit van behind me but I pulled forward enough to have a clear view all round including my shoulder check.
Btw, I'm trained to IAM standards as well as being driver 2 blue light trained so I don't think my observation skills are so bad that they need improved that much. Sorry if I didn't jot down a full driving plan and DRA tho..
Typical though, someone on here making a judgement about someone else on the basis of a couple of posts. Sheesh.

Dammit.. Too late to add that I was indicating for ages prior to moving, that's why I was flashed out..

Mr Ox. I have nothing against sensible filtering. I always give bikes the right of way anyway regardless. Maybe I was stirring the pot by saying ill be allright cos im in a big metal tank, but that is the point. I just wish they would slow down a bit when weaving through traffic. Everyone of my mates bar one who has had an accident on a bike, thankfully nobody that badly hurt was being reckless ie speeding and lost control of the bike, no cars involved.

althepal... You probably realise this but you shouldn't be assuming anything just because someone flashes you out.

Inbred456 - Member

Everyone of my mates bar one who has had an accident on a bike, thankfully nobody that badly hurt was being reckless ie speeding and lost control of the bike, no cars involved.

Aye, bikers like to think that they're most at risk from cars but the accident figures show they're most at risk from themselves.

NW.. Appreciate it was a while ago in the thread but yes, I cycled into the city centre every day a few years ago. Didnt risk filtering very much after someone turned left and knocked me off my bike despite the fact I was slightly in front Of them. They weren't indicating btw..For the record. I'm not in the habit of blocking anyone, cars, bikes or motorbikes. Why would you think that?
I've also had my wingmirror knocked by another car, they stopped and offered to pay for the damage. I thought this was a discussion about bikers tho and how they act on the road.. That's why I was giving examples of motorbikers behaviour that I've experienced. Think we all know theres idiots with bikes, cars and or motorbikes

Nw, was just to give you an idea of how long I'd been indicating.. NOT that I thought it was safe to move because someone else told me to..

Had in incident yesterday with a knob head driver (I was also driving) driving along the outside lane (m25). out of no where this Saab 93 pulls across me making me jump on the brakes. So I gave him a flash, he then swerves towards the central reservation (on purpose) flicking up all the lose debris (he knows what he was doing I could see him smile) end result of 1 new windscreen needed! Missive chip/crack. He then missed the run in to the m3 and had to cut several people up tomget his turning causingsome to swerve wildly.

(needs more capital for a rant I know)

althepal - you still failed to see a motorcycle. Therefore your observation was not up to scratch. the motorcycle was performing a legitimate manoeuvre and you failed to see him nearly pulling into his path.

You also appear not to know that this is a legal and legitimate manoeuvres.

Teh answer as I am sure you are aware as an advanced driver is reflective practice and learn trhe lessons - next time you look for that bike. Thats how we all get better

So you didn't find it then TJ?

Thank you TJ. Don't know what I'd do without you sometimes. No, really.
(you just don't give up do you?)
How do you know the motorbike didn't swerve out from behind the White van, how do you know what speed he was doing or the weather conditions? Without being there I don't really see how you can make such a definitive judgement? I get the fact that it should be mirror, signal, manoeuvre too thanks, no need to keep repeating it.
And speaking of repetition, I read it the first time when you said it's not illegal, since then I haven't mentioned the legality of it. Although it does seem stupid and extremely dangerous undertaking/filtering folk at speed on the motorway between lanes 2 and 3.

And please, really- please, don't tell me that the things listed above don't matter, I'm just trying to point out (again) that you weren't there so I fail to see how you can be so sure of your judgement?
Anyways, nightshifts done, goodnight and stay safe out there everyone.

althepal - did you see the bike? No. In that case your observation was not sufficient.

its simple logic.

The bike cannot appear from nowhere.

What you saying? I don't have a case? Car drivers are not cocks?

I don't disagree that [i]some[/i] are. However, by following up your rash generalisation with a claim that you regularly boot off door mirrors, in a thread where everyone's going "all bikers are blah blah blah" is, well, it's not very bright now, is it?

Don't ever take up riding a powered bike chum, you'll not live long.

Odd that, given that I've held both car and bike licenses for years, and here I am.

I'm trained to IAM standards as well as being driver 2 blue light trained

And yet you pulled out into the path of a motorcycle because someone in a van flashed you, and have to ask questions like "is filtering legal?" I call BS, sorry, that doesn't add up.

I've never even heard the term filtering before now Cougar. Prob cos I don't hold a bike licence and it's never been something I've had to study..
Oh, the van was behind me, a car in the other lane slowed slightly to make a space for me to move into and flashed to draw my attention to it. Bs? If that's what you think..

Fair enough then TJ.. I can see your (laboured) point.
Why do I get myself into debates with bighitters on here, I should know better by now..

TJ - you really do seem to have gone very quiet on providing the proof that I changed my story from the original so here you go - unfortunately I cannot find the original thread, but here are a couple of excerpts from subsequent threads where it was brought up again...

Perhaps you refer to the time I posted about the rider who overtook me going up a hill with a blind summit and sharp left bend whilst doing a wheelie on hatchmarkings* then having to drop it and swerve in right in front of me as a car headed around the bend [i][b](that one made my wife scream out loud it was so close)[/i].

POSTED 1 YEAR AGO[/b]

Ohh, and recently (as I posted on here) I had a bike overtake me going up a hill with unbroken white lines. The brow is unsighted and has a sharp left.

Did I tell you he was wheelie-ing as he did this?

Then a car came 'round the bend so he had to drop it quickly and swerve in right in front of my car.

(That is just the latest idiocy I have witnessed, there have been plenty more on this particular stretch of road (Skipton Road out of Harrogate).
[b]
POSTED 1 YEAR AGO[/b]

*I accept I was wrong in stating there were hatchmarkings on one post - it was just unbroken white lines.

A total and unreserved apology will do this time.

Did you see the bike? Did it appear from nowhere?

For it to be alongside as you made your manoeuvre then it must have been in your line of vision for a couple of seconds as it overtook the van and crossed the gap between the vehicles.

I am not attacking you - merely trying to get you to understand this is why two wheelers suffer from "smidsy" its because they are in places that the car driver does not expect and they they are a much smaller frontal area its easy to miss them.

My bet is the bike was in your field of view when you checked your mirrors but it was not the shape or size of a car nor in the place you would expect to see a car so it did not register.

There was some intersting research done on why this happens. Its got some connections with the way the brain processes signals.

YOu only perceive something as a threat when the angle it occupy in your field of view gets above a certain size. as a car is much wider this happens much further away. so that you may see a bike but your brain filters out he signal as noise.

althepal - Member

Fair enough then TJ.. I can see your (laboured) point.

sorry - crossed posts hence more labouring of the point

Fancy saying sorry to me then yet?

8)

TJ, I saw him over my shoulder after checking again (I'm a bit paranoid like that) and braked to avoid any collision.
Was that appropriate?
Just read your post above. Ta.

MF, I have no desire to go searching thru old threads. My memory is that you made other posts about being surprised by an overtaking bike and always your tone is hyterical - i think we are referring to different occasions. One of us has it wrong in their memory. I think you said it, you don't. Thats as far as it goes.

TJ, were you there in the car with althepal or m_f? If not, how can you possibly comment on something when YOU WERN'T THERE??
You don't seem to be able to accept that the motorcyclist's were not riding defensively or safely and therefore in the wrong. To constantly point the finger of nowhere else but at the car driver really highlights your own blind spots when it come to this sort of thing.

MF, I have no desire to go searching thru old threads. My memory is that you made other posts about being surprised by an overtaking bike and always your tone is hyterical - i think we are referring to different occasions. One of us has it wrong in their memory. I think you said it, you don't. Thats as far as it goes.

BIgyinn- do me a favour. at no point have I said the motorcyclists behaviour was acceptable.

as for althepal - there is a simple piece of logic. the bike must have been in his field of view for a couple of seconds.

He did say sorry to me...

That's different althepal - we don't particularly like each other and it must hurt someone like TJ to have to admit that he was very wrong.

MF - I believe that there was at least one other incident you posted about that you have forgotten. One of us has recollected wrongly. No proof is available.

I am quite happy to admit I am wrong where I have been shown to be.

Whether or not there are other times I have mentioned motorbikes isn't really the point - you accused me of changing my story, not to have mentioned wheelies and to have not been concentrating and screaming out. As I have stated I never intentionally lie and for you to accuse me of that is insulting to me. I told the story originally and have discussed it again, all over a period of around 2 years (the original incident happened on our way back from a day out in Skipton in August 2009 so the original post was probably around that time) and I have now provided PROOF of what I have previously said.

On thinking further about it, there was one other occasion (on the same A59, about 2 miles up the road at the Otley Road crossroads) when a motorbike overtook a car waiting to turn right (in a right filter lane) that I have mentioned. And I *may* have discussed the time a girl came off her bike and ended up under my car (but I am not sure about that one) - anyway, that wasn't dangerous riding, just an inexperienced young rider on a moped who clipped a car as she overtook it because she lost balance at low speeds - a simple accident.

I have also stated that I love bikes and have always wanted one - I have absolutely nothing against motorbikes but I have simply seen lots of evidence of dangerous riding. This is probably because I live on the edge of the Yorkshire Dales and some popular biker routes around the Dales and towards the Lakes so every dry and sunny day the roads are very busy with bikes.

TandemJeremy - Member
BIgyinn- do me a favour. at no point have I said the motorcyclists behaviour was acceptable.

To get back to the OP. I notice that after all the fuss with the M4 bus lane (an example of the war on the motorist) it appears that car drivers were slowed down by an average of a massive 60 seconds. The man from the AA explained that actually removing it was : "It's more of a psychological benefit - they feel better not seeing some traffic sailing past them"

& that's also the reason why car drivers don't like people on other forms of transport going past them.

"It's more of a psychological benefit - they feel better not seeing some traffic sailing past them"

I read that as well. Could we balance that against the users of public transport, who'd have to be feeling pretty smug as they blat past an enormous traffic jam 🙂

MF - I have not accused you of lying. I have stated we have different recollections that cannot be reconciled. I do not beleive you to be lying

😆 this one still going

And 500 lines each for TJ and MF

I must not take the internet so seriously.
I must not take the internet so seriously.
I must not take the internet so seriously.
I must not take the internet so seriously.
I must not take the internet so seriously.
I must not take the internet so seriously.
I must not take the internet so seriously.
I must not take the internet so seriously.
I must not take the internet so seriously.
I must not take the internet so seriously.

You can have the first 10 on me 🙂

TJ

Well MF if it was the same incident its a very different story NO wheelie mentioned for starters and no oncoming car or blind summit. Just a bike overtaking you at speeds well in excess of 100 mph and no mention of braking in front of you. so actually a different story. If its the same incident then you really do like to embellish a story to fit your rant of the day

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flow - Member

Boring, etc

And yet you're still here reading it.

MF -

MF - I have not accused you of lying. I have stated we have different recollections that cannot be reconciled. I do not believe you to be lying

If you lie without being certain if you're lying, is it still lying?

I've never even heard the term filtering before now Cougar. Prob cos I don't hold a bike licence and it's never been something I've had to study..

It's in the Highway Code, and it was there when I passed and that was like twenty years ago so it's hardly new.

I don't understand how you can be "trained to IAM standards" and emergency response trained and yet have never come across the term; and, terminology aside, have no idea whether it's a legal manouvre or not.

I don't understand how you can be IAM trained and make comments like:

I thought that kinda thing was only legal if someone was turning and there was a queue behind them..

and

(I) did nearly take one out when changing lane in slow moving motorway traffic. Checked mirrors, shoulder check then doing maybe 30 or more a biker (in full team stormtrooper uniform) whizzed past my door just missing my wing mirror.

Perhaps you could help me understand. What did this training entail?

Oh, the van was behind me, a car in the other lane slowed slightly to make a space for me to move into and flashed to draw my attention to it.

Ok. So a car flashed you out, you then assumed it was safe and moved into the space without looking properly. You'd been waiting ages, someone flashed and you thought "ah, finally!" and swung over. It's easily done.

The biker could well have been filtering too fast. It's hard for you to tell objectively in the split second "jesus, where did he come from" that you saw him as he passed, and it's obviously impossible for us to ever know. If he was passing a van then he should've been prepared for you to change lanes without being able to see him and riding appropriately defensively. Clearly, he wasn't. Conversely, you should've been aware that your rear visibility was reduced due to the van and been making extra checks throughout your manoeuvre accordingly. Vans are hard to see past, but motorways aren't generally known for their corners. Clearly, you didn't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all motorcyclists are saints. There's plenty of nobbers out there giving the rest a bad name. I simply object to the default stance of "the biker was at fault because I didn't see him, everyone knows that all bikers are reckless tossers," and that's irrespective of what they're wearing.

Oddly, bikers like to wear bright clothing that offers a lot of protection for a reason. Can you think what that might be, hm?

Yet you are happy to throw wildly inaccurate accusations at me about what I have previously said on the subject and try to hide behind such an excuse without offering an apology or admitting you were entirely incorrect. My recollection is perfectly clear and accurate - yours was wrong and used to try to belittle my posts.

If you are happy not apologising then you have no spine.

But then most of us knew that already.

Page 7, cool.

Can I add while there is a pause.

That yes often bikers make strange/odd/illegal etc manoeuvres. But on the whole we are making those manoeuvers on purpose and with reason, whereas the average car/van driver seems to mostly on auto-pilot and not concentrating and/or looking.

Can't blame them really, on the A40 this morning (and tbh most mornings) they were queued for over 5 miles (Hillingdon to Perivale) and beyond from what I could see.

And - I'm afraid that when you are on 2-wheels, it doesn't matter who makes the error - we suffer.