... is something that is touted in the press every so often. Sometimes it refers to school leavers, graduates or experienced persons. Especially with regards to technical / engineering areas. What I'de like to ask is how many peoples employers offer technical training and have you taken any of it up? If you're an employer do you offer technical training? Are other countries any better?
I appreciate training is expensive to give hence outside of a few big employers it seems very limited. Utility companies seem to offer good training as do oil and gas companies but outside these areas? I work in technical industry and there is zero training offered by the company, nor has there been in any of my previous jobs. I feel mentoring seems to be a thing of the past. I've never received any when I left university at my jobs and despite being autodidactic I feel I have defiantly missed some valuable knowledge transfer. Have I been unlucky with my employer or is this representative. It feels as if many companies are missing out on getting the most from their employees.
Training has always been necessary, college and university course have only ever given the theory side of training but employer now seems to talk as if they expect people straight from university or college to be bang up to speed and to be up to speed as an experience person with minimal on the job mentoring or training.
There are calls to rebalance the economy to include engineering and that there are a shortage of engineers but a shortage with a demand will usually result in a increase in price. I don't see an increase in engineering jobs pay so is all this talk of a shortage of people with technical and engineering jobs a lie? Trying to get colleges and universities to pump more engineering / technical person to depress market rates further?
**** knows
[\brain dump]
The jobs are going abroad
That's exactly why I moved into utilities. I couldn't find practical training enywhere else. Seems like the modern cry from most businesses. We want x but we don't want to pay for it.
I think "job for life" and "highly skilled workforce" don't seem to be linked in the same way they used to be.
The on-the-job training I've had has managed to be barely one week a year over the nearly 30 years of IT.
I'm a professional engineer within the automotive sector - major Vehicle Manufacturer.
We have access to as much training as we want. I can book onto all sorts of technical training courses through the company I work for. I'm currently doing some training that can/will lead to an MSc - via a connection with a local University.
We have trouble finding Engineers with suitable skills. I'm involved in recruiting for our team and we probably interview 1 in 10 applicants and employ 1 in 3 of them.
The larger outfits do. Arup put me through Uni and on more courses than you can shake a stick at. The smaller companies don't. At all.
It's reflected in the salary though. I earn a lot more as a senior engineer at a small outfit than they do at arup. Have got a car too.
Is it just me or does this have frightening similarities to the 80's & 90's education policies of the Thatcher government?There are calls to rebalance the economy to include engineering and that there are a shortage of engineers but a shortage with a demand will usually result in a increase in price. I don't see an increase in engineering jobs pay so is all this talk of a shortage of people with technical and engineering jobs a lie? Trying to get colleges and universities to pump more engineering / technical person to depress market rates further?
During that time I was lecturing in Birmingham and was made redundant 3 times because I was working in media & the arts and the government pulled all the funding and insisted that it went into engineering instead.
Looks like it worked really well, doesn't it. It'd be nice if our current leaders could have some original ideas for a change.......
There's a fear, I think, that if you train staff they'll leave. The solution to which, of course, is pay them competitively as well.
As an IT 'professional' of 20 years, I can count the amount of formal training I've had on the fingers of one hand. I don't really mind too much; if you've got qualifications they want experience, if you've got experience they want qualifications, and if you've got both you're overqualified.
interview 1 in 10 applicants and employ 1 in 3 of them.
To be honest that does not sound a bad ratio for any skilled job. The interview to hire seem especially good.
Arup put me through Uni and on more courses than you can shake a stick at.
I know two people who work for arup and I must admit they both say its a good company to work for. You can tell because people seem to stay
I should say as well that my current employer (been working for them for over 15 years) is a large global employer in the IT industry and as part of our 6 monthly reviews always asks about training required, yet every one of my close colleagues has had every request ignored in the last 6 years at least yet we're expected to support tools that no-one has had any formal training in.
They have a very clever model. Great grad scheme (but not well paid), and that's who do all the work. A few senior engineers oversee and check stuff. Being arup, they charge a lot. Kerching!
There's a fear, I think, that if you train staff they'll leave.
I've herd that one from management, but I would offer the Arup and others counter examples.
if you've got qualifications they want experience, if you've got experience they want qualifications, and if you've got both you're overqualified.
Management speak for too expensive!
I have worked in aerospace for 12 years, and, whilst the graduate and apprentice intake fluctuates we have always had a good number joining each year. In fact, of late it seems the intake is higher than ever. However, what we struggle with is retaining people and convincing them that the technical roles are worthwhile. I am a structural analyst - we have been unable to 'recruit' from the graduate pool for years and I have spent a huge amount of time trying to support placements and offer a good experience. The feedback is always good and, but the response is always 'it's not for me'.
So, my experience is somewhat different in terms of the training, but it appears some jobs just aren't popular, no matter how much you try to sell them - even though people with upwards of 3 years experience are extremely sought after.
I work in aerospace engineering for one of the largest corporations in the world and there's as much structured training as I want really. Just ask and if it's justifiable, ye shall receive. It's a (very) American corporation though, not sure if that has anything to do with it. We also have a large and well resourced apprenticeship scheme.
Also worked for small firms (family run etc) in the past and training has been virtually non-existant. Although one in particular did have a truly excellent apprenticeship scheme which they were rightly proud of (Ipeco)
20000+ employees in the 'direct' company I work for, which is part of a global business which in turn is part of a global monster. When I joined there was personal development training, professionally recognised structured training, mentoring, sponsorship etc etc. Its pretty much all gone reflecting the general fortune/profitability of the company. If a company (big or small) makes money (oil & gas, utilities), it can invest in training. No money, no training, and dare I say, dubious future.
I work for a small (40 staff) civil/structural engineering firm and we push training hard. some of our best/senior staff were school leavers joining at one point. We push staff at all levels from day release for the younger techs to gaining professional qualifications for senior staff.
as a team leader it can be a right ballache resourcing projects but the end result is better staff and more people in engineering.
I think most companies lack the vision to see the need.
we dont make mega bucks but we survived the crash and are busier than ever.
Engineering rates in the contracting market have increased very significantly in the last two years. Staff engineers are generally poorly paid and treated as an 'overhead'. Companies are pretty short sighted, so for staff, there is generally not much training on offer, and a lot of shit for not much money.
Companies are now desparate to get projects implemented, so pay highly for contractors with experience...they don't want to increase staff rates, as they have to do it across the company.
As I see it, there is a big shortage of decent engineers due to companies shortsightedness, so you have to position yourself to take advantage.
As I see it, there is a big shortage of decent engineers due to companies shortsightedness, so you have to position yourself to take advantage.
Become a stress engineer then - so many opportunities at decent pay and very little competition 🙂
I'm stressed already. Technically only a kind of engineer though.
Good to hear some positive stories here, but still seems like there has been a bit of a general decline, probably in lien with how engineering has generally decline in importance to the U.K. over the years.
We have the same in our industry (outdoor centre) - a lack of qualified (to any good standard) and experienced staff.
Larger companies seem to do more and more 'in house' and only 'on site' - so low level training, and few proper practical skills beyond do what they are told.
Many college and training courses put people though base level or training only, and none through driving.
We run our own year long training course and apprenticeship as a part answer, and 50-80% of our staff come in this way.
The problem is that I then work with them for three years or so to get some good qualifications and practical skills, and then one of the larger companies sucks them back in at a senior level 😐
Technically only a kind of engineer though.
Exactly - so the World is your lobster. But the effort of trying to describe what you do to people wears very thin after a while!
Just out of interest, are there any contractors on here? I think the pay discrepancy is reducing, so i was wandering if it is still really worth it given the risk, lack of pension etc.
However, what we struggle with is retaining people and convincing them that the technical roles are worthwhile.
Technical jobs stop half way up the ladder in this country. You have to join the management class if you want the social status and salary to boot. Different In some other countries. At every review I get asked if I want to do management or "stay technical". But if I do that, I won't be doing designing, making and test real things that do stuff for clients. But lots of people don't think like me.
Contractors at my place doing broadly the same thing as me can get 35/ph which is a good chunk more than I get and I've been tempted on occasion but I don't want to give up the final salary pension. That scheme closed a couple of months after I joined and if I wasn't on it Id be off contracting like a shot...
Interesting Guardian article on the issue [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/10/alan-sugar-apprenticeships-britain ]here[/url]
lack of pension
Ha! I dream of employer contributions.
Lots of STEM graduates go into banking.
Roter Stern - Member
Interesting Guardian article on the issue here
Interesting but it only cover the apprenticeship side and graduate training is also lacking. I find the guardian seems to miss the a point there, it also pedals the typical line that a degree in a good subject result in well paid jobs.
The company I work for is currently screaming out for qualified electronics/power/fpga engineers, I lose track of the number of vacancies we have, but it's also a reasonably specialised industry. But I was at a conference last year where one of the main topics of conversation was the lack of talent coming through from the universities compared to how many we actually need!
As for training, the company I work for is relatively small compared to some, although it is part of a much larger group of companies, but training is actively encouraged. I'm currently finishing a short course at the local Uni, and I'm trying to sort out getting some of the younger engineers onto an MSc too. The company has now realised that as we can't seem to employ people already qualified, we'll have to make our own!
Interesting to hear thoughts on the whole.
I'm currently at College studying an HNC in Engineering systems. With the view of moving offshore into the oil industry. I want a hands on position, and to actually be doing things!
I have applied to University for Degrees, but would rather get a training type position in industry.
Despite college having all the equipment, we don't get any practical courses as part of our HNC. Metal work, or maintenance are all separate NVQ's.
I know that down the line I'd like to move into a more office/managerial job (hopefully rig management!) I'd rather learn hands on, and work my way up than have all theory and no practical experience.
Ah yes, the pension. I missed out of the defined benefits scheme at our place. Like most of the recent intake, it's defined contribution. A day will come when the big buck of contracting will win over and most of who they've trained recently will leave. I just wonder how many will go before they decide they need to do something about it.
Simply_oli_y my advice then would be to skip uni, go in on the tool and work hard. I wish I'd done it that way. I'd be a better engineer now and further along in my career. (assuming things work that way in the oil industry)
Oil and gas here.
More training courses tan you can shake a stick at , in house and external.
Going by my office alone maybe 50% staff retention from each new intake
. Money always wins over training benifits and folk chase the dollar
Still dont see an incentive yet to go management.... Take a 30% paycut to stop doing what your trained in and do paperwork till you eyes bleed ?
Onza dog, if he is going oil and gas he will reach a glass celing. Quick unless hes willing to start at roustabout and go down on the job learning at the coal face path and going to uni in later life to progress .. Not one i recomend if you have the ability and drive to get through uni when younger.
We have the same glass ceiling but once you're in the job, the company fund the degree. I feel like I've missed out on a lot of valuable experience getting the degree first. Plus it cost me a lot of my own money.
Depends if he wants to load and unload baskets and mop the deck 2 weeks in 4before moving on to throwing slips and mopping the deck , before being the derrickman, throwing pipe and mopping the pits and shakers, then using his brains alot when hes AD , driller , pusher
Its a different path altogether to that of an engineer.its like being a groundsman then a digger driver then a site foreman. but you always wanted to be a cival engineer designing and doing calcs
Ah, that would be the difference. We run a lot of craft apprenticeship and look to turn the best of the craftsmen into engineers.
I'd be looking to start as a technician Terry.
Preferably production, or instrumentation! But something along the lines of a service position, with the (hopeful) progress view of:
Production/maintenance technician > Lead Technician > Shift Supervisor > Production/maintenance Supervisor > Ops management (rig management)
We have trouble finding Engineers with suitable skills. I'm involved in recruiting for our team and we probably interview 1 in 10 applicants and employ 1 in 3 of them.
That doesn't sound like too high or low a ratio.
My previous company were going through a very transitional time and training dropped out of the radar totally - before reappearing a little for those who shouted loud enough. We had previously had a 1 hour in-house educational talk/seminar of some kind maybe once a month. In 3 years they didn't send me on any external training. I learned the software packages through working closely with my lead engineer and the built-in tutorials.
My current job had put me on several training courses (6 days) within the month I had started to get me up to speed on the software they use (Solidworks - previous job was ACAD and Inventor). We had a critical delivery a few weeks ago.. they cancelled a seminar lots of us were booked in to and brought the speaker in-house for a day-long session the week after. They're also a lot more prepared to buy new computers, equipment and invest in the engineers to get the jobs delivered.
Oil & Gas industry here as well. I work for a global service company and we are screaming for suitably experienced engineers just now. Due to the shortage, all of the service companies are poaching the staff from each other and the wages are going through the roof. It's not only engineers. I work in QHSE and by moving companies managed to land a 30% wage increase and a load of benefits.
The company do have a graduate engineer training program but they take time as new graduates don't have the required practical experience. Most of them like to think they know it all but they are brought right back down to earth when they first go offshore as the classroom does not prepare you fully for working in the field.
In my experience in oil & gas,you only really need a university degree if you want to be a design engineer. All other engineer type jobs can be learned through on the job training and training courses. The main problem is holding on to people once they are fully competent.
I am finding this thread interesting. Degree is in mechanical engineering. Spent 9 years working within the opencast mining sector. Really interested in a career change in my mid thirties and was considering oil and gas. Sounds interesting and I am sure many of my skills are transferable.
"In my experience in oil & gas,you only really need a university degree if you want to be a design engineer. All other engineer type jobs can be learned through on the job training and training courses. The main problem is holding on to people once they are fully competent."
see i think things are changing and i dont think its for the good , sure if you have experiance you can get in on grandfather rights but now my company wont even hire non degree staff for a field engineering roll. There is a corporate policy that certain roles require certain education levels - and looking at job vacancies i see requirements for degree in all but the most basic of basic menial task jobs in oil and gas.
In simply_oli's case i would be looking at opito training scheme where they work in conjunction with operators to provide an apprenticeship in the correct enviroment coupled with paid for further education up to degree level if you wish - competition for this course is tough though due to the doors it opens.
also i agree with the last point. I started as a grad 3 years ago and ive recently just done my break out job as lead project engineer for the whole shooting match.litterally the day after i was approached for 3 jobs all doubling my salary..... tell me why i dont move ?
"Most of them like to think they know it all but they are brought right back down to earth when they first go offshore as the classroom does not prepare you fully for working in the field"
its so true - had a graduate recently who thought he was going to africa to supervise people doping pipe- he didnt like it much when i handed him the dope and brush and showed him how to dope pipe. Meanwhile i was at the other end doping the box connections. (we are not casing hands but we do use a propriatory casing in our completions)
The main problem is that due to the skills shortage in the industry, compainies are unable to find "the perfect candidate" and are having to take on less experienced staff in order for them to fulfill existing contracts. I don't believe that you need a degree for most engineering jobs if you are capable of doing the job. Some people are hopeless at sitting exams but are smart and can do the job with their eyes closed. Same goes for the opposite. I have a mate who is a subsea engineer working abroad and earning £130000 per year. No degree and he joined the army after school. The army gave him skills that could be transferred to the industry.
trailrat - funny you mention the pipe doping with the graduates. I had a very similar incident when i was an inspectors and doping drill pipe threads with a new graduate. He complained when he got some dope on his boilersuit sleeve so complained to his manager that he wasn't going to carry on with it as it was below him. He was swiftly shown where the gate was if he didn't like it!!! needless to say he had a face on for the rest of the day.
athgray - you most certainly could transfer your skills to the oil & gas industry. Get your CV updated and put it on oilcareers.com and see what happens.
More training than I can shake a stick at here, although 90% of it's low budget either internal stuff to get everyone up to speed on how to do stuff using the internal software/standards, or presentations from vendors.
My previous company were going through a very transitional time and training dropped out of the radar totally - before reappearing a little for those who shouted loud enough. We had previously had a 1 hour in-house educational talk/seminar of some kind maybe once a month. In 3 years they didn't send me on any external training. I learned the software packages through working closely with my lead engineer and the built-in tutorials.My current job had put me on several training courses (6 days) within the month I had started to get me up to speed on the software they use (Solidworks - previous job was ACAD and Inventor). We had a critical delivery a few weeks ago.. they cancelled a seminar lots of us were booked in to and brought the speaker in-house for a day-long session the week after. They're also a lot more prepared to buy new computers, equipment and invest in the engineers to get the jobs delivered.
You forgot to mention the final kick in the teath for us UK engineers, you're in NZ enjoying the summer!
