MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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If a work place decided that the dust masks that people have used for the last 20 years now don't seal to your face can they enforce you to shave your face.
Clean shaven every day not even any stubble.
No mention of it in contracts afaik.
People who aren't clean shaven Monday will be sent home.
Who's right and who's wrong?
If it's a H&S issue then I would think they can
If it's about professional appearance then less so - especially as beards and stubble seem to be en vogue at the moment
Why would you want to not have a functioning dust mask?
That said, there's a solution to these kind of 'problems' - we had some chaps with religious beliefs that meant they couldn't shave their beards, so an alternative solution was sought.
Is yours a religious reason?
only if its a health and safety issue otherwise its freedom of expression and covered by the human rights act.
e.g a fireman has to be clean shaven so he can wear a mask safely, a banker does not.
it also falls under religious expression, muslims can not be forced to shave unless its an H&S issue (see above).
I had the same issue in my work and I told them where to go. Remember they are contracted to provide you with so many hours work at set times, if they try and send you home they are breaking that contract.
however, if it is a H&S issue then there must be a risk assesment to cover it.
Can you use a full face mask? I use a 3M Adflo thing because I have an odd-shaped head and normal masks don't seal perfectly.
Facial hair – stubble and beards – make it impossible to get a good seal of the mask to the
face.
If you are clean-shaven when wearing tight-fitting masks (ie those which rely on a good seal
to the face), this will help prevent leakage of contaminated air around the edges of the mask
and into your lungs. You will therefore be breathing in clean air, which will help you stay
healthy.
If there are good reasons for having a beard (eg for religious reasons), alternative
forms of RPE, that do not rely on a tight fit to the face, are available.
- Slide 13, Page 14
Ask to see the risk assessments and ask what alternative arrangements they have made. Then you can judge if this is a reasonable instruction.
What does your union say?
Edit - the other reason is do you have any good reason for not shaving ( I don't like it is not enough) like your skin gets infected / rash etc - thats also a health risk and should be taken into account.
As an ex union rep its not a case I would like to take on unless the person had good religious or health reasons for not wanting to shave given that his is a decent reason for getting you to shave
We could wear full face masks but workplace have said they are too expensive
Buy your own then?
Best check your religious beliefs then...
Or shave.
I don't think you're allowed a beard or stubble if you work at an Aldi supermarket.
I'm not sure they could force that on sheikh employees though.
They'll be going under "so far as is reasonably practicable" then Yim.
HSE won't like it though as the hierarchy of works will stop them at the point an alternative is easily available.
If I shave every day I'll get a huge rash all up my neck and face which is why I don't shave very often. nothing to do with designer stubble.
Some lads at work have had a beard for 20 plus years and have now been told it's got to go.
I've already bought my own dust mask as the ones supplied are the crappy paper ones. I can't see how having a slight bit of stubble affects the sealing to my face.
bigyim - no doubt stubble / beards effect sealing on masks. Folk who have worn full beards for years however have a decent case as would you if you can show the rash effect.
How many staff involved? How many don't want to shave daily? How good is the solidarity? could you be replaced easily?
I can't see how having a slight bit of stubble affects the sealing to my face.
Ever done a respirator fit test? If your face has hair on it then the seal will not be as good.
I used to have a shave when I needed to go into respirator/mask areas and kept a pack of bic's at the office just in case. It was better than breathing in the dust.
You've got solid historical evidence then Yim that it's been acceptable.
They'll need far more than just a revised RaMS set to force shaving.
If they are on about using standard masks then the cost savings over the initial purchase of full coverage ones, with filters will appear good but get them to work out the TCoL and it'll change rather quickly.
For a face fitted mask you must be clean shaven. However we have several hood type mask for people with beards that can be used. They must provide alternatives.
WE have the same complications but if you have a beard you get a full face thing. But we have them anyway because while we can wear dustmasks for some jobs some of the stuff we deal with (spraying isocyanates, highly sensitising materials and some othe fairly nasty chemicals) means we keep them in stock anyway.
Just because you've been doing it for 20 years doesn't make it correct. Personally I'd welcome them stepping up the H+S as far as inhaling dust goes.
Are they doing proper face fit testing - you can get companies/equipment that help you establish if what you are using is effective. My face doesn't fit the paper ones so I use a 3M 4255. You may find these are better for non clean shaven but not beards.
FWIW I would try and engage your employer in a rational discussion. Weigh up the pros and cons of forcing the staff to all shave, especially those who've had beards since before it was fashionable. Equally one arguement that held weight at our place was the definition of clean shaven. Occasionally people forget to shave, what do you do? Equally at what point does my 5 o'clock shadow become stubble? Full mask may not work out much more expensive if you consider they are serviceable and last a long tim unlike disposable dust masks. Also better for the environment.#
I can't see how having a slight bit of stubble affects the sealing to my face.
Have they done 'fit testing'? (Where you wear your dust mask in some special 'smoke' and they ask you if you can taste it) They should have done (legally) - it will confirm that the chosen RPE is effective and tell them / you whether the stubble causes a problem or not. (But usually it does, because it stops the rubber around the edge of the mask sealing against your skin.)
Buying your own isn't the answer - the employer has to identify something suitable for *you*, provide it and maintain it. The fact that they've let you do this suggests that they haven't really been on the ball.
We could wear full face masks but workplace have said they are too expensive
Too expensive isn't a valid reason for not providing suitable RPE.
Ultimately, if they can't find suitable RPE (cost not withstanding), you could be "transferred to other duties" (if nothing suitable exists, then there may be no job).
AFAIK, they can't make you shave unless there's something in your contract of employment about this - you've a general duty to cooperate with your employer's arrangements for Health and Safety and to wear any PPE required, but the PPE must be suitable.
It's in your best interests not to breathe whatever is on the other side of the mask.
If there are good reasons for having a beard (eg for religious reasons), alternative
forms of RPE, that do not rely on a tight fit to the face, are available.
If I shave every day I'll get a huge rash all up my neck and face
If your invisible friend dictating your beard is deemed a "good reason" I'd argue that a medical condition certainly is. Can you get a doctor's note maybe?
They are providing the required safety equipment, if you don't want to shave they can offer cost towards an alternative to the value of the one they provide. I really don't get why you won't just shave.
Drac it sounds like the employer is paying lip-service to the regs and trying to make it the OP problem if the supplied equipment doesn't fit/work correctly. The equipment has to be suitable and sufficient. (Based on the info we have above from OP).
OP is this dust/fume or vapour the masks are dealing with? If dust then airstream or a really good quality paper FP3 mask should be sufficient with a beard. Point out to the employer that £5 saved per mask order will soon disappear if they manage to give an employee industrial asthma due to inadequate equipment.
Ask to see the CoSHH assessment for the substance that is causing the problem (they have got a CoSHH assessment carried out by a nominated specialist who is competent)? There should be other controls considered before PPE and saying it costs a bit more is no defence for the employer.
The equipment has to be suitable and sufficient.
It is.
I really don't get why you won't just shave.
Because,
If I shave every day I'll get a huge rash all up my neck and face
And, because he shouldn't have to.
It is.
Clearly it's not, it doesn't work with his stubble.
If he were to comply and shave and get a huge scabby rash on his mush, would that not interfere with the seal also?
If he were to comply and shave and get a huge scabby rash on his mush, would that not interfere with the seal also?
Well I reckon he should give it a go, how big is the scabby rash?? It's well shown that facial hair screws with the seal, it's actually interesting getting a good seal having had to do annual tests on it that were measured. It did make me feel a little more worried during site exercises when I had a beard as I knew the emergency respirators wouldn't work properly.
Stubble isn't a just reason.
If the rash is proven to be a medical reason they may fund the full cost of the mask or they may look at the capability of him in his role.
They are providing safety equipment that works for a majority is appropriate, unless the employee has a disability, religious reasons or just medical reason then they aren't obligated to provide an alternative. They can however offer a subusary towards an alternative.
At my place they can, we wear Avon N10's so not your crappy little paper masks 😀
They are providing safety equipment that works for a majority is appropriate, unless the employee has a disability, religious reasons or just medical reason then they aren't obligated to provide an alternative.
It (the law) doesn't work like that - the PPE has to be appropriate to the individual. A 'one size fits all' approach is not acceptable. Unless there's something in the contract of employment about appearance or PPE compatibility (some places have this), the employer has to take the individual as they find him/her and make appropriate arrangements.
(Employers can't cite [u]capability[/u] because of PPE issues - it seems that suitable PPE is available in any case, but is more expensive.)
Does anyone ever get a good fit on those paper dust masks?
We banned them on site and got some purestream ones that make you look like something from Alien.
We then have proper masks and the like for properly nasty stuff.
I never really understand the positions employees take on these kinds of requests, which on the surface sound reasonable and in your best interests.
It won't be popular, but I don't see why if they pay you a fair salary and generally treat you well why you'd want to push back on this, and cause them further problems.
If they are not generally a good employer, then you could always leave and be unshaven somewhere else.
e.g a [s]fireman[/s] firefighter has to be clean shaven so [s]he[/s] they can wear a mask safely
Someone of the girls have more stubble than the guys 😯
How about they provide full face masks, but you all have to grow big bushy beards and talk like pirates for six months?
As an ex union representative, I'm all for the win/win.
Yes they can if it is a condition of working there. I am supposed yo be clean shaven to potentially wear a full respirator or SCBA, if I refused then I'd be shown the door.
Fit tests prove that anything other than a positive pressure mask will have a compromised seal if the wearer has facial hair or stubble. Even then they can be a pain in the arse. Tornado hoods are available but I'd imagine the cost would go beyond reasonable provision for all but the most hostile environments.
It's part of my role to be a member of the nuclear emergency team and as such I'm supposed to be clean shaven in the event of having to wear breathing apparatus. 😯
In reality I'm a scruff but have a razor available if required.
Fit tests prove that anything other than a positive pressure mask will have a compromised seal if the wearer has facial hair or stubble.
It's part of my role to be a member of the nuclear emergency team and as such I'm supposed to be clean shaven in the event of having to wear breathing apparatus.
sounds familiar... live or have a beard
I am supposed yo be clean shaven to potentially wear a full respirator or SCBA, if I refused then I'd be shown the door.
That sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
That sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
AFAIK there are a number of exemptions like when that sort of thing is the required equipment for the job. It certainly was for nuclear work and I wouldn't want anything less for my own H&S
Not at all cougar - if a condition of employment is that you are clean shaven then thats it. The only allowance the employer needs to make is for those who don't shave for religious reasons.
Different to the OP where it is a [i]change[/i] in the terms and conditions. IMO getting those who don't shave daily to shave is OK but getting those who have worn full beards for years is not
big yim, what is it that the dust marks are being issued to protect against? Depending on the substance, it is likely that the potential adverse health consequences are a lot worse than a shaving rash.
I am not suggesting you put up with a shaving rash, but rather that your priorities are wrong, and that you should be most concerned firstly with making sure you understand what the risks of breathing the substance in are, and satisfy yourself that the controls in place (including the masks being provided) are appropriate.
I've already bought my own dust mask as the ones supplied are the crappy paper ones.
This worries me - the cheap paper masks without a valve that you can get in any DIY store do NOT provide significant adequate protection: fine maybe for a DIYer doing a quick one off couple of minutes with a power saw at home, but absolutely not OK for workplace use where there is prolonged/continuing exposure to a substance significantly hazardous to health.
I genuinely hope I am wrong about this, but it sounds like your employer may have got its risk assessment and the resulting controls badly wrong, if it is issuing cheap paper masks and making a fuss about everybody shaving. That is the sort of thing which someone who does not really understand H&S might do.
You probably already have a good idea/feel for whether your employer takes H&S seriously and does things properly, but a big clue will be what are the other controls in place to protect you from breathing in the substance in question. RPE/PPE is a last resort (this is written into H&S legislation), because it is not the best means of protection (it's effectiveness/performance is difficult to maintain and measure, because of the variable fit etc.). So, in the hierachy of controls, the business should already have sought to eliminate/minimise your and your fellow employees' exposure by other means, most obviously by effective Local Exhaust Ventilation (which itself needs to be appropriately specified and installed to be effective - a classic example of getting it wrong is installing the exhaust capture hood above someone's head, ensuring fumes are drawn though the worker's breathing area).
In your shoes, I would want to cooperate with the employer, and do everything I was told necessary for safety. The problem is if you think/know the employer is getting wrong and seriously endangering your health as a result. In that situation, I would hope it was an honest mistake and try and very tactfully get them to review things/get some specialist H&S help (a consultant and/or possibly send someone on a H&S course like the NEBOSH Certificate). However, if the employer is looking to take a tick box approach and say the the paper dust masks mean that it does not need to bother with any other other controls, and it's now your look out to wear the masks, then that is somewhere I would not want to work.
A beard or my future health?
I was talking to our asbestos guy about this the other day. He's currently fit testing himself twice a day while he grows a beard. So far, it seems that a couple of days of stubble are a problem but after that, the masks we use become functional again. Once he's got enough evidence, he's planning on taking it to the hse for review.
If your place is serious, they should be offering a fit test, if they're not, then they're only paying it lip service anyway.
They are providing safety equipment that works for a majority is appropriate, unless the employee has a disability, religious reasons or just medical reason then they aren't obligated to provide an alternative.
It (the law) doesn't work like that - the PPE has to be appropriate to the individual. A 'one size fits all' approach is not acceptable. Unless there's something in the contract of employment about appearance or PPE compatibility (some places have this), the employer has to take the individual as they find him/her and make appropriate arrangements.
+1
Our fire brigade used to have this policy. If you couldn't get a seal on a BA face mask then you didn't get in.
Now though, if the standard mask doesn't fit you get a personal issue mask.
If they're insisting that you shave and won't stump up for the extra PPE get them to sort you out with a STW approved shaving kit, or maybe stop off at the local Turkish barber every morning and put it on expenses.
It's protecting against dust from sanding but all the equipment is vacuum attached so dust is very minimal.
Also use isocyanate products and those employees have full face air fed masks. We had a meeting a few months back saying we all needed to wear full face air fed masks if you weren't clean shaven.
Now they have said those are too expensive so we all have to shave
As its a change to your terms and conditions its a different situation that joining a workforce where being clean shaven is a requirement.
What does your union say? You need an opinion from a real expert not just armchair experts
The only allowance the employer needs to make is for those who don't shave for religious reasons.
They don't actually have to even do that. A bit like you can write a job spec that says "must be able to lift and carry 25kg up stairs" that intrinsically discriminates against wheelchair users. You can state that beards aren't allowed if face masks are to be worn.
I've no idea how it would work if you refused to shave off an existing beard if the requirement is brought in when you already work there. I suppose if you went down the medical "I get a rash from shaving" route they could eventually get rid of you by saying you're not fit for the work and no suitable roles were available. Either way if a risk assessment's been done properly (which it sounds like it has) then they can't let you work on Monday doing that job. Whether they can send you home without pay is a different issue.
Seriously though, beard Vs your health? Just shave. If you want to prove manliness and/or be hipster, learn to use a cutthroat.
Source:
H&S engineer, formerly bearded before starting a job where masks had to be worn.
It's not that appropriate HSE is available, but rather that they're too tight to pay for it.
If you sacked a Muslim man because he refused to shave his beard for religious reasons when perfectly acceptable HSE was available, well, I wouldn't want to be part of your HR department.
Buy a false beard.
Shave.
Wear the false beard unless instead wearing the mask????
Profit.
plus either a waste worn battery powered filter/air pump thingy or a main airline filter set.
If the company wont stump up for these then find a company that isnt such a bunch of tightarses
If you sacked a Muslim man because he refused to shave his beard for religious reasons when perfectly acceptable HSE was available, well, I wouldn't want to be part of your HR department.
Fair point.
Although the OP's is a more nuanced case than some as it's not emergency equipment therefore you could argue they could provide a different mask that's not so easy to get on, but does seal around the neck rather than face and/or positive pressure breathing apparatus. The religious rights are trumped on some petrochemical sites handling toxic gasses (H2S, CN, etc), if you turned up with a beard you'd not be allowed on site, no ifs no buts. It's a danger to you, and the person who tries to drag your limp corpse to safety when you pass out.
OTOH the OP's objection to being told to shave isn't religious so the point is moot.
If the company wont stump up for these then find a company that isnt such a bunch of tightarses
Still wouldn't seal against a beard though?
It's protecting against dust from sanding but all the equipment is vacuum attached so dust is very minimal.
Assuming it's wood sawdust, then it sounds like your employer is being responsible. As per this [url= http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/wooddust.htm ]HSE page[/url], inhaled wood dust has the potential to cause cancer and occupational asthma (and the latter is not something that would just mean using an inhaler: it means becoming permanently sensitised to the substance, such that you would have to stop working in that type of environment and suffer permanent ill health). The fact that the Local Exhaust Ventilation is reducing the dust quantities, does not mean that RPE is not necessary. As the HSE document indicates, where the risks are so serious as cancer and occupational asthma, then the risks must be reduced to a level "as low as reasonably practical", so RPE in addition may well be necessary (but that means proper RPE with a filter/cartridge, not a cheap paper disposable).
As others have said, RPE should be fit tested to assess its effectiveness. There is also a bigger picture regarding what should be done, what happens in practice, and what should be prioritised.
According to the law (COSHH), there are legal limits for the maximum amount of wood dust to which you should be exposed, both long term (averaged over an 8 hour shift) and short term (15 minutes), the latter because a small amount but concentrated in a very short time may be more likely to trigger a sensitisation etc. than the same or even greater amount spread over a lengthy period. Employers are required to ensure that the exposure is below those limits, and to reduce the exposure even further where "as low as reasonably practical" also applies.
This means that the employer should arrange for measuring of the exposure levels. This should be done by an occupational hygienist who would take samples of the air in the workshop, preferably by getting some workers to wear a portable sampling device (to measure what the worker typically breathes in during the day). Analysis of the samples will tell the employer if they are above or below the statutory limits.
RPE will have a 'protection factor', so it possible to calculate by how much the RPE further reduces your exposure from the level measured by the portable sampling device.
The problem with all this is that where cancer and occupational asthma are concerned, there are no known precise safe limits or cut off points, hence the requirement to go as low as reasonably practical.
The reality is that many smaller businesses will not get this sort of sampling done, and will jump straight to introducing the controls without measuring. That is not necessarily the end of the world: I have sat in a room where the then chairman of the scientific committee which sets the legal maximium exposure limits, made it very clear that that the priority should be spending money on controls more than measuring (not saying don't measure, but that controls should be the priority).
big yim, it sounds like your employers are being reasonable, and taking the line that not providing full air fed masks only because someone does not [u]want[/u] to shave is probably justified (although if I were the safety manager, I would take the view that respirator masks are a poor control due to the unreliability of the fit, the discomfort, and the liklihood that people would take them off - so I would simply go for air fed full face masks, which would save wasting money on fit testing). I think the onus initially is therefore on you to try to cure the shaving rash problem (and yes, a traditional razor and soap with a bit of practice to get the technique right or an electric razor, instead of a multi-blade and aerosol foam, might be the answer). If despite your own best efforts you cannot cure the rash, then I would approach your employer and explain the problem, point out what you have done to try to fix it yourself, and ask if they will provide an air fed mask. Hopefully they would agree, but if not I would probably buy my own.
HSE measures should be "As a far as reasonably practicable" What is the expense against employees health and well being.
[url= http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/healthrisks/hazardous-substances/isocyanates.htm ]http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/healthrisks/hazardous-substances/isocyanates.htm[/url]
Respiratory Protective Equipment (RPE) – you may need RPE where ventilation does not provide enough control – particularly in enclosed spaces if you are creating an aerosol (eg by some rollering work) or using products with significant amounts of TDI. Wearers should be fit tested where needed. It is particularly important to select the correct filter. For example, P3 particulate filters provide protection against spray mist but do not protect you from vapours. You will need the right gas / vapour filter for these. Change them at suitable intervals. Check with your supplier if you’re not sure.
Union?
The religious rights are trumped on some petrochemical sites handling toxic gasses (H2S, CN, etc), if you turned up with a beard you'd not be allowed on site, no ifs no buts. It's a danger to you, and the person who tries to drag your limp corpse to safety when you pass out.
TBH, I think religious exemption for H&S law should be done away with anyway. It exists for a reason - to keep people safe - and should apply to all regardless of "beliefs." Your faith in your god won't do you much good when you're lying on the floor with your skull in several pieces, though I suppose it'll provide some comfort that you're going to a better place.
But that's another discussion.
TBH, I think religious exemption for H&S law should be done away with anyway. It exists for a reason - to keep people safe - and should apply to all regardless of "beliefs." Your faith in your god won't do you much good when you're lying on the floor with your skull in several pieces, though I suppose it'll provide some comfort that you're going to a better place.But that's another discussion.
I think the only exemption in law is Sikh turbans and hard hats. And even then it can be subject to a risk assessment (i.e. they may not be allowed to work in areas with a higher risk of dropped objects but may be allowed onsite in other roles). There are no other religious (or otherwise) exemptions.
Although the exemption is that turban wearer is allowed to not wear a hard hat on site. In all other cases you can't not wear the required PPE and you're allowed to not employ someone on the basis that they can't/won't wear it (i.e. you can refuse to employ a Sikh, Muslim, Orthodox Jew, Amish, if they don't shave for religious reasons).
It's part of my role to be a member of the nuclear emergency team and as such I'm supposed to be clean shaven in the event of having to wear breathing apparatus.
In reality I'm a scruff but have a razor available if required.
If I'm right we may well be doing the same job on sister sites. 4755?
It would also appear we have a similar policy. Don't tell anyone I'm a BA instructor. (oops)
TINAS - they actually have a "hard hat" specifically designed for turban wearers now that is out into the top part of it as they finalise the wrapping.
No excuse.
Back to the OP - for me it comes across as a blanket "this is what we are doing like it or walk" scenario.
Go in tomorrow, be prepared to shave BUT push for the COSHH, RaMS, data, etc to show they have done the sums correctly rather than bulk buying from Arco.
I know what my money is on them having done.
I'm really tempted to shave but leave a Hitler moustache. Not sure this would really help though
I work in environments which require a face mask.
Sometimes full face ,sometimes not.
We have mask fit tests and are not allowed to work in the "environments" if you fail the test. Or have a beard.
I'm a mercenary ,pay me and I'll shave.
Through my PhD and subsequent work I have been working with various nanomaterials and spraying nasty solvents and isocyanates. In the lab it all gets handled in glove boxes or sprayed in fume cabinets but I would still wear respirators. The only time I have needed a full air fed mask was when spraying lacquer in a proper booth as it was a large part, when spraying in the fume cabinet common sense on the risk assessment prevailed so a conventional mask (but top of the line) was seen as good enough. We also had a full face mask with the highest level of filters in an emergency kit ready for anyone responding to a lab incident to use.
At the moment I am desk bound producing reports, managing projects etc and have a semi beard. I hate shaving as I get a rash and have to choose the right creams but if I was back in the lab I wouldn't hesitate to make sure the masks I used fitted correctly.
I guess you could always slather your face with Vaseline where the mask sits but I suspect shaving might be easier!
Just in case it helps OP. I use a trimmer to go down to 0.4mm and it's not much longer than an electric shave. I have trimmed several days in a row without irritation and like you suffer from very severe shaving rash when I wet shave.
I would be surprised if 0.4mm was an issue - but someone may know better...?
Jamj1974 they've said that's too long. That's the annoying part
I still think as this is a change of policy enforcing it on anyone with a full beard will be tricky when alternatives are out there to solve the issue
<since nobody else has done it>
I used to have a lovely moustache but my boss made me shave it off. He said it tickled.
I don't think you're allowed a beard or stubble if you work at an Aldi supermarket.
I'm not sure they could force that on sheikh employees though.
I wonder if any sheikhs work in any Aldis? Not this one, I doubt he has ever needed to wear a dust mask either.
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just shave where the mask touches? 😉
I always try to make Ppe the last resort, better dust extraction and damping down as much as possible.
Update on the situation.
Didnt have a shave as ordered on Friday and neither did about 5 other lads. No one got sent home but we all got called in the office one by one with the manager.
Can I buy my own mask? no
Will you offer an alternative? No
Can I wear my airfed mask? No
If I shave every day then my neck will come up in a big rash. Not their problem apparently
Basically said I get 2 weeks then have to be clean shaven, then after that get sent home without pay