SUVs were conceived to boost flagging sales by creating a new niche.
Heavier, with all the downsides of excess weight and an exercise in compromise, they are a huge success due to the vagaries of fashion.
The manufacturer conveniently makes a higher profit margin on SUVs, when compared to a regular car.
A win-win.....for the manufacturer!!
My instinct is to avoid them as to me an estate or a roomy hatchback is better in every way. More space, better fuel economy, easier to get into as it’s lower.
That’s contradictory. Yes, there may be more space, but fuel economy is dependent on many factors, not just the height, in fact many criticise SUV’s but are happy to sing the praises of van-based vehicles that are as big or bigger, and getting in and out of a vehicle where the seat is a foot or more higher than a saloon/estate is much, much easier, common sense should tell you that.
I bought an EcoSport, a Crossover rather than a full SUV, specifically because it’s just so much easier to slide in and out without difficulty.
My job over the last six and a half years has involved getting in and out of hundreds of different cars, vans, MPV’s, SUV’s, etc; recently mostly school of motoring cars, and the Peugeot 308’s are bloody awkward to get into, they’ve got a horrible hexagonal steering wheel that obscures the speed display, and unless I have the seat at its lowest, I can barely get my knees under the wheel, but with the seat at it’s lowest, I’m barely looking over the top of the wheel, and I’m nearly six foot.
It’s a fact that a population that’s increasingly older will prefer vehicles that are just so much easier to get into and out of - my Ford is just about the most comfortable car I’ve driven as regards access, driving position and cabin layout; I love it to bits, there’s no way at all I’d go back to a saloon, or an estate. Oddly enough, because of the body shape, I can get out of a current model Mazda MX-5 than I can a Fiesta.
The fact that I’m 69 this year, with arthritis in my knees, has dictated my choice of car, plenty of others are making the same choices.
However, it’s also the case that there are SUV’s that are just stupidly big for no other reason than to just show off, the middle class version of a big-bore exhaust, a huge subwoofer and pseudo track-racing accessories, like alloy towing eyes and ignition cutoff switches. Or an F1 light - like a fog light, but it’s on all the time, and can be made to flash. Like on the tarted up BMW that a lad at work drives… 🤦🏼♂️
SUV's cover all sorts of sizes and weights. Ones that are more normal car sized are fine, it's the massive ones, ICE or EV that are an issue - just no need for that size, especially the stupidly fast ones.
Totally agree. Even little cars (like Polos, Fiestas etc) aren’t little anymore
I drive an Argo, it is as small as small cars used to be and looks ridiculously narrow compared to other cars. Makes parking really easy, still has room to take lots of stuff to tip for example and does 60mpg however I~ drive it. Don't need anything bigger.
Argo, you mean Aygo.
We've got one too, its my preferred car for nipping out and about, and commuting if I'm not riding - super frugal, easy to drive, no pretenses, and folk let you out ! Fair amount of space if the seats are down. Bit basic and noisy, but it's about 800kg only.
But the Aygo comes in a SUV one now ! Why, as does the Yaris - that's one fugly car Yaris X
SUV's are attempt to make the blow of owning an MPV (eurgh based on a van darling) more cool. Look I got a pretend off road car sport thingy. Did I mention Sports, yes I do sports.
Add in 80k worth (Polestar) of environment saving. As you pull onto your drive the neighbours will be out to give you a standing ovation, maybe pots and pans, as a national hero doing your bit for the greater good.
fuel economy is dependent on many factors, not just the height,
Yes, but those factors are independent. Yes, you can have an SUV that's as efficient as some car, but if you apply the same fuel saving tech as the SUV has to the car you've selected, it would be more efficient. Like for like, an SUV is guaranteed to be worse on fuel regardless.
I found the fuel economy of an Argo abysmal. Quite liked the 8-wheel drive and the ability to go on water though.
But the Aygo comes in a SUV one now
Yes, they couldn't leave it alone could they and have made it wider and taller and heavier but kept same engine. Can only assume their research has suggested that is what the consumers want to buy.
.
A BMW X1 SUV hybrid is 60kg lighter than the 330e hybrid estate.
So much for the heavy argument!
Over the years I’ve had estates, hatchbacks and an SUV.
The SUV is by far the most practical and useable out of them all
we currently have a BME X1 and a Merc E-Class estate. The Merc wins on overall space but it’s less useable space.
I’ve had Mondeo hatchbacks in the past that are just as useable as an estate.
The X1 is fast, comfortable, handles well, good mpg, you can see out of it, get in and out very easily etc etc. Much better than the 3 series estate I had.
"There is a dearth of 4×4 cars that aren’t SUVs. For some folk, that makes them difficult to avoid"
That's summed it up perfectly for me.
As someone who's had estates for 20+ years, they are getting rarer. Can't get a Mondeo estate now in reality, Volvo stopped making the V70 and XC70 (the ideal vehicle for me) half a dozen years ago and their 2nd hand price is ludicrous, etc.
And those that are around have ended up with 'aero' back ends which stuffs up space and practicality (get square a dog cage into an aero shaped boot without wasting loads of space or making the space for the pup cramped). A few over priced audi and Mercs if you have the £££ (and I don't want an Audi as they're driven by waaankers).
So... SUV it was, out of necessity. At least I can get it up and down the driveway when there's a hint of snow (unlike all previous cars) and the extra clearance underneath is useful st times.
No, we’ll have solid state batteries soon with much higher capacity
I call shenanigans on this.
Lithium has been around as a tech since the mid 80s. Commercialised in early 90s. Workable as a commercial entity from around mid 2000s onward. We're now in the sub-fractional phase of increasing capacity on lithium.
There's no other technology out there at any stage of that path.
There’s no other technology out there at any stage of that path.
We'll look at where lithium is on the period table, we can't do better than lithium. We maybe able to get better at using it (and hopefully reusing it) but as you say the big gain of jumping to lithium is done.
A BMW X1 SUV hybrid is 60kg lighter than the 330e hybrid estate.
So much for the heavy argument!
Indeed, an apple contains less vitamin C than an orange. So much for an apple a day being healthy.
Conversely, a 330e (a massive car, @1890kg), weighs ~150kg less than the x3 xdrive30e (@2040kg).
Indeed, an apple contains less vitamin C than an orange. So much for an apple a day being healthy.
And even more odd, our 2.0 petrol gas guzzling eco unfriendly SUV does better MPG than either of the 1.0 Polo and Fiesta that we have owned in the past which were a fraction of the size and lighter.
Its not the size of the car thats the issue, the whole bad press with SUV's has come about from the those that have big v8's etc in them that are lovely places to be but get about 20mpg.
Anyhow the real answer is - buy a van. They are allowed on STW even though they are bricks on wheels, not that economical and handle like shit
Anyhow the real answer is – buy a van. They are allowed on STW even though they are bricks on wheels, not that economical and handle like shit
Yeah baby !
Only on STW, buying a large BMW, Audi, Merc, Van totally acceptable when you could just buy something smaller. Buy an SUV over a Focus and you're the devil incarnate...
Completely irrational behaviour from people trying to be 100% rational.
We’re now in the sub-fractional phase of increasing capacity on lithium.
It's the electrolyte that they are working on. There are lots of significant improvements to be made there.
Its not the size of the car thats the issue
It is AN issue. Like for like, an SUV wastes more fuel than the same tech in a normal car. This is unavoidable. Modern SUVs are more efficient than old cars because of the technology in them. But put the same technology in a car and it will be more efficient still. There's no getting away from that.
It's up to you what you do with that piece of information.
Only on STW, buying a large BMW, Audi, Merc, Van totally acceptable when you could just buy something smaller.
If you go back to the ultimate MTB transport thread there are lots of people advocating estates there too.
Only on STW, buying a large BMW, Audi, Merc, Van totally acceptable when you could just buy something smaller. Buy an SUV over a Focus and you’re the devil incarnate…
Completely irrational behaviour from people trying to be 100% rational.
There are possibly only 1 or 2 EV vehicles on the market that have gone down in size rather than up there's a certain amount of irony there too from manufactures, government policy and people who buy them
It’s up to you what you do with that piece of information.
Well, you could realise that very few decisions humans make about their lives are solely based on cost...
You happily call someone insane for not buying the most fuel efficient car, but not for any other choice in their life. Just seems rather odd to me...
The Mini Countryman SUV is coming, my main objection is calling it Mini! The photo angle doesn't help - makes it look the size of a truck.
There are possibly only 1 or 2 EV vehicles on the market that have gone down in size rather than up there’s a certain amount of irony there too from manufactures, government policy and people who buy them
I'm not sure what the irony is?
It's blatantly obvious when you look at cars on the road that frugalness (made up word) is not a factor when people buy them. The car pool is far newer than it needs to be and has a large number of premium, larger numbers.
Many people in this thread seem to be under the misunderstanding that the only way to choose a car is based on lowest mpg, yet I bet virtually none of them are driving small cars. Some even tow caravans!
Not sure I agree with your 20% efficiency disparity – my SUV is broadly equivalent to the preceding Estate I had, it’s certainly not 20% adrift.
Just checked a set of vehicles with exactly the same powertrain and driveline.
The SUV version is 8.4 l/100km, the jacked up estate is 7.6 l/100km and the normal estate is 6.6 l/100km.
Get the FWD instead of AWD and you knock 0.7/0.9/1.1 off that.
It'll also be impacted by wheel size as well as weight and aerodynamics.
Molgrips
Yes, but those factors are independent. Yes, you can have an SUV that’s as efficient as some car, but if you apply the same fuel saving tech as the SUV has to the car you’ve selected, it would be more efficient. Like for like, an SUV is guaranteed to be worse on fuel regardless.
But how much worse ??
Exactly the same except height .. everything on a journey at near 40-50mph I don't think there is going to be much difference and there are so many other factors such as tyres/roof bars and how its driven
Excluding the specific sporty things I think its realistic to assume a fairly significant proportion of people will drive differently - my own perspective driving the van is its more pleasant to just accelerate slowly and drive more sedately.
I guess an example is when I hit a 50mph limit (say A470) I often find I'm only doing 55mph anyway vs I'd probably have been at 70mph and this is without making a specific effort.
Like for like, an SUV is guaranteed to be worse on fuel regardless.
Probably far better than a large Merc towing a Caravan though....
Exactly the same except height .. everything on a journey at near 40-50mph I don’t think there is going to be much difference and there are so many other factors such as tyres/roof bars and how its driven
There's no point in trying to have a rational discussion. It's an SUV therefore the owner is the devil incarnate. The fact he's burning far less fuel than the Merc towing the Caravan next to him is completely irrelevant.
I think manufacturers figures are also claimed on the base car are they not? So by the time you pack it with electric seat, sunroof, leather, big wheels LED Matrix headlights, etc you can easily increase the weight by a couple of hundred kilos and affect the drag.
Not for a decade or so, there is a minimum weight tied to a range of spec levels, some things are included, i'm not up on the detail as that's a different department altogether.
I do however know that a major manufacturer got a huge fine a few years ago because they FA&FO and tested cars that had a made up spec that their systems wouldn't allow you to build/buy.
Some were approaching 200 kilos lighter than the actual minimum spec on the system.
Mechanical winders in all four doors, no AC, no sound system/stereo at all. All cloth seats. No spare tyre, and so on.
They were already notorious for including very little in the base spec cars and EVERYTHING being an option, even if the system wouldn't let you build a car without it. And they're still doing it today, but in a different way.
How many people know or care what their car weighs?
Cars are cheap and fuel is cheap. Just drive up the motor way and you see 10,000s of large, new cars all driving above 50 mph, which tells you that no one* is making car purchase choices based on minimising purchase or running costs.
* maybe less than 1%
Things to remember are that SUV's in UK/Europe are different to SUV's in the US. A lot of people confuse them with 4x4's such as Landrovers, Land Cruisers etc
What we'd likely describe as an small/medium SUV here is a high H-Point Hatchback. Basically you repackage a family hatchback to sit a bit higher on its wheels (but not that much compared to a proper 4x4), raise the seating position a bit to get a higher driving position (but again, not that much compared to a proper 4x4), crucially ditch the 4x4 system and use a stock fwd drivetrain (as 4x4 systems are heavy, complex and expensive and basically pointless for motorway, urban and city driving where most cars are used). The looks a bit more chunky so looks like it can protect the occupants and looks more tough (hey guys, there this new thing called mountain biking/snowboarding/kayaking/hiking other outdoors activities and its social trend...). Its not that much heavier or super high on its suspension so drives more like a "normal" car, a slightly bigger car is easier to get through new more stringent crash testing requirements...etc
So to explain SUV"s (in the European sense) :
Once upon a time a company called Nissan is wondering about what to do to replace the 2nd generation Primera (which is rather good but not a Mondeo/Vectra, 3 Series or Passat) and poor selling Almera, consider all the above ,say, "lads, I have an idea..." and lo...
Qashkai is born in the early 00's . Rapidly becomes a bestseller because of all the above. Rest of industry, after mumbling "but, but, but the Mantra Rancho..." takes note and marketing, sales and product development teams start talking. Nissan makes a lot of money with what is basically a high riding mk2 Primera in drag.
BMW build the X5 as they had recently bought LandRover, realises the products are great but not great however there's a lot of knowledge and potential (there were a lot of LandRover technicians in the staff canteen in Munich when I was working there in 1997...).
Later, the bottom will fall out of the traditional European family saloon/estate car market (with the notable exceptions of the BMW 3 series and STW fave, the Octavia).
Family hatchbacks become small and tough and a bit more practical. Bigger more sporty estates get tougher. Only BMW drivers and taxi drivers by saloon cars until the mk3 Prius turns up. Customers are getting older and realise they don't actually like sitting low down in vehicles. Crash test regs get far, far more stringent as customers realise that it's nice to survive a crash unharmed. Plug in hybrids appear which demand a load of battery package space requiring a bigger vehicle and an SUV form is ideal. Dog owners stop buying estate cars. Everyone realises that while MPV's were a good idea but frankly, if you really want to drive a Van/Minibus, simply just go the whole hog and get a VW T4/5/6 etc. EV become a thing and its far easier to package these new LiIon batteries into a a single block on a skateboard type chassis so normal cars have to get taller. And the rest, as they say, is history...
Honestly, what's so hard to understand - some people like them, some people don't. Do people seriously lack the perspective to be able to see why others may prefer an SUV over other kinds of vehicles?
Vehicle choice, just like bike and component choice, is about deciding which compromises best fit with your own wants and needs.
Some people are far too concerned with what other people choose to spend their money on.
Classic singletrackworld - SUV bad, van good...
footflaps
There’s no point in trying to have a rational discussion. It’s an SUV therefore the owner is the devil incarnate. The fact he’s burning far less fuel than the Merc towing the Caravan next to him is completely irrelevant.
Well, obviously...
I guess what I see FAR more often is the Estate with 1-2 bikes on the roof.
Buy an SUV over a Focus and you’re the devil incarnate…
Good work sir, deserved more recognition
Classic singletrackworld – SUV bad, van good…
...Camper - OMFG!!! 😍😍😍
For me just really widens the debate as to how much impact all of your choices - aggregated are making, rather than one choice which is boils down to - 'I don't like your choice.'
Some choices are subject to - 'on balance.'
As for Green - it's got to come from top down, full on government intervention otherwise consumers just take the hit for operating within a frame-work supplied by the private sector.
Take this 2030 ban on ICE - well it could happen if the government *made it happen*. Just expecting the market to deliver yields rubbish results. The government has to spend the money on making the infrastructure work - or it's not going to happen.
Leaving it to the consumers and a multitude of random charging points - it will fall apart. I have sympathy with consumers they constantly have to make up for economic short comings with poor government macro choices.
But how much worse ??
Well there's my earlier example of Ioniq 5 vs 6, but there's also tons of information out there. I gathered figures last time we did this I can't be bothered to do it again.
Probably far better than a large Merc towing a Caravan though….
They put the same engine that my large Merc estate has in large Merc SUVs, and guess what that does to the fuel economy?
There’s no point in trying to have a rational discussion. It’s an SUV therefore the owner is the devil incarnate.
Not really - I mean there are all sorts of negatives associated with driving anything anywhere, after all. The thing that grates slightly about the SUV trend is that for MOST people it's just about image, and that is often not considered a worthy reason to use more fuel.
As for Green – it’s got to come from top down, full on government intervention
It absolutely does, which is why we need a complete societal revolution so we can vote for governments that will sort it out.
Only BMW drivers and taxi drivers by saloon cars until the mk3 Prius turns up
Re Priuses, there's a cool looking new Prius coming out in the US that is very much a normal car shape, but they won't sell it here because we like SUV shapes instead. So much for the eco car I guess.
It absolutely does, which is why we need a complete societal revolution so we can vote for governments that will sort it out.
I'm totally with you on that.
The thing that grates slightly about the SUV trend is that for MOST people it’s just about image
You really think a Sportage or a Kuga is a status symbol to people ? I'm not convinced... We bought our Kuga for the space/area, the clearance for ruts and the viewing area/driving position. Status didn't play a factor in the slightest.
The thing that grates slightly about the SUV trend is that for MOST people it’s just about image, and that is often not considered a worthy reason to use more fuel.
Funny thing is, worthy reasons only seem to apply to SUV drivers and no one else on the planet...
They are also really nice to drive, we often have a Sportage for a few months and I have to say, lovely place to be and I imagine most SUVs are the same.
Just to give a bit of perspective on the difference between an estate and an SUV fuel economy, I've had a BMW 5 series estate and an X5 with the same 3 litre diesel engine in them. The estate car long term over the same type of driving was about 3-4 mpg more economical, that's it, just under 10% difference. But crucially the X5 can carry the 6 of us in my family, there are no estates available any more with extra seats, and lots of SUVs have an extra row of seats in the back.
Cars are cheap and fuel is cheap. Just drive up the motor way and you see 10,000s of large, new cars all driving above 50 mph, which tells you that no one* is making car purchase choices based on minimising purchase or running costs.
I'd slightly disagree - few people buying an expensive new car cares about minimising running costs. If you've got, say, £30k to spend on a car, the fact it might cost an extra £200 a year in fuel (worst case) than an estate is
a) easily swallowable - its a tiny part of the overall cost
b) probably offset by the improved resale values of an suv anyway
so people just choose what they like most
