[Closed] Can social networking sites be used to insite and organise civil unrest?

I saw a post on Facebook recently trying to organise a game of "Urban Laser Tag" for employees of the post office.

Don't think it ever got going though.

Short memory ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15756260

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-18536940

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/16/uk-riots-four-years-disorder-facebook

it has been hasn't it?

Isn't that why the egypt facebook revolution is called the egypt facebook revolution?

year late?

Actually I was hoping for an intelligent discussion on this subject and some more information.

I haven't been on STW lately so thought I would ask this question get some feedback and then gain a better perspective of the question and other peoples view points on it.

So we agree that a precedence has been set that facebook can be used to create civil unrest and violent crime?

Does anyone not agree or have anything else to add?

I remember a 'free the Asda bike rack one' campaign that had the potential to go global.

kaesae - Member

So we agree that a precedence has been set that facebook can be used to create civil unrest and violent crime?

So if facebook can be used to create or escalate civil unrest what is to stop unscrupulous or politically motivated individuals from using it as a tool to influence the global political landscape.

The riots in the UK proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it can be abused, what can be done to ensure that this does not happen again?

It has been in the past but it was proved illegal to incite civil unrest in the UK and those that did were charged and found guilty, as they should be. IMHO

Perhaps you are correct druidh, however if we say that a lot of the individuals who got involved would not have been involved without mobile phones or access to face book.

Then can we not say that the portion of civil unrest that was caused as a direct result of facebook / mobile phones was created by these factors?

what can be done to ensure that this does not happen again?

Nothing.

It's a form of communication.

Like talking, or writing letters.

It's just that it's easier to reach a wider audience, faster.

No. "Civil unrest" exists within the mindset of the individuals. Facebook is merely a communications vehicle.

The Toxteth and Brixton riots took place before the advent of social networking sites.

I think we may be able to say that the spread of the civil unrest was due to both the traditional and social media.

Actually - going back to the title of the topic - No and Yes.

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

The question boils down to "can a communications medium be used to communicate?" to which the answer is, of course, yes, otherwise it'd be a pretty crap communications medium.

If some people choose to use it to, say, incite civil unrest, that's not a fault of the medium (directly, anyway, arguably there should be T's & C's and active moderation to prevent it).

But that's not what you asked exactly is it. You asked if Facebook can [i]cause [/i]civil unrest, whether that was intentional or not I don't know, but it's leading wording. Facebook can't [i]cause [/i]anything in and of itself. Can television cause civil unrest? Newspapers, radio, instant messaging, spam, a targeted leaflet campaign?

Actually I was hoping for an intelligent discussion on this subject

I think that was rather optimistic. 😉

I think that they influence the speed of development of unrest,by making co-ordination easier,but would someone join a riot just because it was arranged on Facbook? I don't think so i.e I think the conditions leading to unrest have to already be in existence.

So people in Egypt will join a revolution, but people in the UK wouldn't join a riot?

Even though people in the UK after being notified on facebook and via mobile phone, did join a riot?

I'm not sure I understand that argument or the reasoning behind it!

I'm not saying that K,I think that the people who rioted were unhappy with their social lot and inclined to do something about it,Face book just made it easier to organise.

Try thinking about it in reverse,would you join a riot if informed about it on Facebook?If so,what difference would it make if you heard about it in a pub,orsomeone rang you to tell you about it?I think you are trying to blame the messenger,not the message,a common mistake.

Face book just made it easier to organise.

I agree with you Matt,unfortunately governments of many political hues do not share our beliefs,and will inevitably try to impose controls on these media,sp Peoples Republic of China.

I disagree facebook is already being used by the US government in ways that are questionable, the question for me is what is the extent of the US security services involvement with facebook?

How much access do the security services have to the information on face book and also how much more access and influence will they have if they continue to use national security and terrorist attacks as an excuse to alter legislation?

facebook is already being used by the US government in ways that are questionable

[Citation needed]

if any assumption is being made that your data in facebook is in any way secure - it's a false one. It's not just governments you need to worry about accessing it.

I don't have an account. Glad its still optional 🙂

K it would be normal behaviour for governments,not just the US,proving it can be difficult and dangerous to one's health sp Bradley Manning and Julian Assange.

if facebook can be used to create or escalate civil unrest what is to stop unscrupulous or politically motivated individuals from using it as a tool to influence the global political landscape.

I disagree facebook is already being used by the US government in ways that are questionable, the question for me is what is the extent of the US security services involvement with facebook?

I am not sure this forum is the place for you to discuss conspiracy theories as we tend to not buy into them to the same degree you do

i am sure there will be a suitable forum on conspiracies out there somewhere...it would be a rich irony if it was run by the CIA to track you all down but I doubt it somehow.

the question for me is what is the extent of the US security services involvement with facebook?

You should have asked that question then really ?

Rather than the one you did ask.

So we agree that a precedence has been set that facebook can be used to create civil unrest and violent crime?

I actually think that on a broader level, facebook, twitter and all of these other social media do have a causal role in the revolutions of the last few years.

One of the tools employed by warmongers and despots is the dehumanisation of other people and populations. By creating a common enemy a populace can be controlled. Facebook and related social media allow populations to look straight through historical borders and into the lives of other people who were formerly thought to be 'other'. They can now inform them selves of how others live and see that they are not so different from ourselves.They can see the rights afforded to others and can start to demand them for themselves.

Facebook may not be able to incite violence in an individual but it has contributed to a new cultural climate in which we no longer have to rely on our governments and our media for information and can see through the propaganda. Not so important here, but vital in places like Egypt and Syria.

On second thoughts... 😉

Hello Barnsleymitch, how you gettin on?

Havent read all of that, but regarding the people who went to prison for starting pages calling for people to go and riot - did those pages lead to people going and rioting? I know that they didnt in Dundee, but the folk still went to prison.

Try thinking about it in reverse,would you join a riot if informed about it on Facebook?If so,what difference would it make if you heard about it in a pub,orsomeone rang you to tell you about it?I think you are trying to blame the messenger,not the message,a common mistake.

Probably no difference to most people, but that rather misses the point. If only 1 person in a hundred can be encouraged/enthused to take action as a result of any given message, getting a good turnout becomes a numbers game. Social media is a broadcast medium. Conversations in a pub, telephone calls etc are not.

For me the content of the messages and posts being circulated in this issue of war and similar issues and incidents around the world are of paramount importance!

Facebook should be forced by law to make all information pertaining to acts of violence or civil unrest available to an international commitee for independent evaluation.

Far too often of late the website facebook has been mentioned in wars and other global matters, this is far too much responsibility in the hands of a select few in my opinion and is unacceptable, all of these websites should have all available information evaluated by independent means!

The riots in the UK proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it can be abused, what can be done to ensure that this does not happen again?

What's the problem with civil unrest, bit soft minded are we? Or are you scared because you're a rich city boy from London and suspect the rest of us might murder you in your sleep À la French Revolution? Or are you a 'safety' lemming, who spends the whole of his day worrying about the threat of terrorism, crime or SARS and what the government can do to save you from a horrible death at the hands of monkey aids or left wing anarchists?

Civil unrest can be a good thing - see Burma, Libya, Free France, The American Revoloution etc etc etc for further details.

For details on controlling mass media and stropping the free flow of information to stop civil unrest, see the Soviet Union, Mussolini, Tito, Nazy Germany, Franco, China, North Korea etc etc etc.

Far too often of late the website facebook has been mentioned in wars and other global matters, this is far too much responsibility in the hands of a select few in my opinion and is unacceptable, all of these websites should have all available information evaluated by independent means!

How the **** is it "in the hands of a select few" - it's the ultimate form of democracy!

Fraaaack - seriously are you that blind? I really don't get a lot of people.

How much access do the security services have to the information on face book and also how much more access and influence will they have if they continue to use national security and terrorist attacks as an excuse to alter legislation?

Oh so the Arab Spring is a CIA plot now? The Arab people get no credit, it had nothing at all to do with them? I mean Libya was lovely... they must have loved living under Gaddaffi! No way in hell you would rise up against a murderous dictator who kept one of the Jewels of Africa in permanent poverty whilst some of their neighbors flourished. Even if the CIA did goad them on a little, who gives a shit? Personally I prefer the CIA to eastern dictatorships.

Far too often of late the website facebook has been mentioned in wars and other global matters, this is far too much responsibility in the hands of a select few in my opinion and is unacceptable, all of these websites should have all available information evaluated by independent means!

acebook has been mentioned in wars and other global matters

Facebook should be forced by law to make all information pertaining to acts of violence or civil unrest available to an international commitee for independent evaluation.

I don't see how you can possibly think this would be a good idea- especially given that you obviously give this stuff a lot of thought.

Far too often of late the website facebook has been mentioned in wars and other global matters, this is far too much responsibility in the hands of a select few in my opinion and is unacceptable

You really are a[i] weapons grade [/i]muppet aren't you.

Words fail me. Seriously.

Blackberries were used extensively in London because of the security and anonymity they offer

Far too often of late the website facebook has been mentioned in wars and other global matters, this is far too much responsibility in the hands of a select few in my opinion and is unacceptable, all of these websites should have all available information evaluated by independent means!

True. I thought the Blackberry to blackberry messaging was free, so they were popular as they ere basically free texts for life with the handsets.

I've got a question, do group forums count as social networking sites?

I don't see how you can possibly think this would be a good idea- especially given that you obviously give this stuff a lot of thought.

A lot of thought does not necessarily turn into good ideas, particularly if the thinker is [i]"a proper, swivel-eyed, frothing conspiracy nut who sees the dead hand of covert government departments in every fracking thing"[/i]

So we are to have full access to facebooks database concerning the riots in the UK and be allowed to see everything that was done by British citizens on the site so that it can be used for prosecutions.

But we are not and no one else is to have access to the information relevant to why we went to war with Libya or why these uprising are starting?

Also why has the UN and NATO not done anything about the peaceful uprisings in Saudi Arabia?

If there are no conspiracies and nothing covert and secret is going on , then why the **** do we spend so much money on global intelligence services?

Facebook should be forced by law to make all information pertaining to acts of violence or civil unrest available to an international commitee for independent evaluation.

If you pay them they'll provide you with whatever information you want!

So we are to have full access to facebooks database concerning the riots in the UK and be allowed to see everything that was done by British citizens on the site so that it can be used for prosecutions.

Is it possible to access the records on facebook from certain time periods if they are open to the public?

Is it possible to access the records on facebook from certain time periods if they are open to the public?

They aren't open to the public at all.

I thought you had been "researching" this already ???

I have been researching media and online sources for the facebook pages from Libya but so far I haven't been able to find them.

There are some interesting facebook pages for The Day of Rage, which is the name of the peaceful protests. I'm a bit confused by this name, however I'm assuming that the media wouldn't lie and that you can have peaceful protest called "THE DAY OF RAGE!"

However reports are that a group using facebook were demonizing the sub Saharan Africans and that claims were made that they were all Gaddafi mercenaries and used viagra and condoms to rape countless women, a lot of the violence and bias that continues to this day against dark skinned Africans, is from the initial facebook reports and information.

Although I have a broad idea of what is being said and it is not nice at all. I would like to see the information for myself.

Anyone have any idea how I could have a look at the data circulated by facebook so that I can investigate it further, I really do want to know what happened in Libya and I am not willing to trust Media bodies.

Anyone have any idea how I could have a look at the data circulated by facebook so that I can investigate it further, I really do want to know what happened in Libya and I am not willing to trust Media bodies.

Ok, kaesae, a little tiny bit of research will tell you this about Fb and the London riots:

One real advantage of the BBM network for rioters – and also for Arab spring activists in the Middle East – is the network's security.

Unlike Twitter, where messages are usually public, and Facebook – whose privacy settings are not used properly by many users and which for technical reasons is easier for authorities to access at a later date – BBMs are private to recipients and encrypted during transmission, a fact of which many rioters were aware.

"A friend explained to me that they're closed servers and no police or anyone can monitor them," said one 23-year-old from Newham. "Because it's not open, it's not a public server so no one can know, they can't track them; like if you put it on Facebook anyone can see that, the police can see that and stop it straight away." Not all rioters thought this way, however; some threw their BlackBerrys away after the riots for fear of being incriminated.

The presence of encrypted, hard-to-track but easy-to-use communication devices in the hands of thousands of young people prone to riot was the result of a series of unintended consequences, according to one legal expert.

"BBM's security measures weren't designed to circumvent the authorities – it's the result of two unintended effects. BlackBerry's original key market was not teenagers, it was business users, for whom security is crucial as they transmit confidential information," said Mike Conradi, a partner at DLA Piper.

"Since then, young people have taken to it in droves as it is cheaper and has more functionality than texting. These rioters weren't using BBM because they thought it was secure, they were using is because it's what they use every day."

Conradi also suggested authorities and BlackBerry manufacturer Research in Motion (RIM) alike might find the current situation – unintentional or otherwise – difficult to alter, owing to the legal protections all BBM users are entitled to.

"It's legally questionable whether RIM could take any action to monitor BBM messages," he said. "It would be unlawful for RIM to identify users sending such material without appropriate authorisation from police or the courts, as this would involve searching users' messages. So, oddly, RIM could face more legal issues if it tried to take action than if it does not."

I have been researching media and online sources for the facebook pages from Libya but so far I haven't been able to find them.

are you searching in Arabic? [url= http://www.zeitun-eg.org/keybrd.htm ]with one of these?[/url] - that might be a good start. My G.F. has lots of libyan facebook friends, infact the only reason she grudgingly signed up to FB was to stay in contact with them, which is ace in every sense except she can't read a word any of them writes.

The role facebook really played in Libya was simply as communication, part of Gaddafi's weird legacy is ....... nobody in Libya has and address. You'd wouldn't be able to send your libyan friend a birthday card because theres no way for it to find them.

You want to discover what "really happened" in Libya by reading Facebook?

Within a half mile radius of your front door Kaesae you'll have scottish Libyans who would have returned Libya during the conflict to either fight or more commonly to have helped the wounded and help bury the dead. Go talk to them, you'll find them to be lovely, sensitive sensible people, and they'll give you much more insight into what Libya was like before the war, what the turning points were, what it was like and what its like now.

Can you tell me what it is like now?

Kaesae, I think you are confusing the medium with the message.

P.S and you were more fun when you were with the Sunshine Band.

P.S and you were more fun when you were with the Sunshine Band.

Hels wins the internet!

Who ever controls the medium controls the message!

Hello Maccruiskeen, How do I use that translator?

An excellent idea - I'll bring it up at the next meeting of the State Peace and Development Council, which is a council for planning peace and development, and could perhaps propose a good independent body for scrutinizing the accuracy of information published by websites which, as I am sure we all agree, can be false propaganda news that produces social chaos.

Propose an independent body? Because the UN and International Institutions are not open to political corruption, oh no, never heard of that..... like ever.

Who ever controls the medium controls the message!

In the case of the internet, except in China (even they can't keep a lid on it) no one really controls any 'message' like say.... the Murdoch papers insidiously propagate certain messages. If you think someone does, then you lack a basic understanding of how mass media works on the internet or you are delusional. You can use the internet as a tool for PR work but there is always someone that can answer back.

Also why has the UN and NATO not done anything about the peaceful uprisings in Saudi Arabia?

Because Saudi Arabia have **** loads of surface to air missiles, share intelligence, supply oil and aren't bestest for everest friends with China and Russia but instead our political allies? Did you ever stop to think that countries like Saudi Arabia are undergoing slow political change and that is preferable to bombing the shit out of them if it can be helped?

why we went to war with Libya or why these uprising are starting?

Because we had a score to settle with Gaddafi-duck and took the political opportunity to smite the little bastard?

Without the medium bwaarp, there would not be a way to convey a message?

Is this statement true or false?

Yes but you are an idiot if you think anyone has control over the message of net based mass media.

What the hells your problem with the net, you do know that besides the London riots the ease of data flow has helped millions? Helping to expose human rights abuses, organize responses to humanitarian disasters, overthrow corrupt regimes etc? You have an incredibly selfish UKcentric world viewpoint.

Kaesae, I think you are confusing the medium with the message.

Facebook / Twitter / BBM's role in lots of things gets overstated in lots of things - either overly blamed for things like the London riots, where a lot of the messaging and tweeting was really the latecomers. The riots started in the streets, not in peoples bedrooms - or its roles in overplayed in the things like the Arab Spring and natural disasters.

I remember in the aftermath of the Haiti earthquake there being a small raft of stories in the media about the loss of telephone infrastructure and mobile transmitters being knocked out meant that people were turning to facebook to contact relatives and co-ordinate the response (how when theres not phone or mobile infrastructure I'm not sure). The stories appeared so uniformly and neatly across the media you really did have to wonder whether it was a PR campaign by facebook.

If you really want to get a [i]feel [/i]for how revolutions start than Sean Macalister's film about the revolution in Yemen is well worth a look - it costs £1.50 to download but its a magnificent film. In countries like Libya there was no opposition movement, no campaign, no organisation. People spontaneously picked up whatever they could find and joined the fight. Not all at once but one at a time. In Seans film you see the little incremental steps from being part of the status quo one week to standing barechested infront of the guns the next. You'll see death - and by that I mean you will really will see the lights going out - but framed in absolute compassion its one of the most beautiful cinematic moments I've seen. Its astounding and terrible and brilliant and funny and its all mixed up in Macalister's car-crash life and its £1.50.

[url= http://www.seanmcallister.com/films/reluctantrevolutionary.php ]Reluctant Revolutionary[/url]

Hello Maccruiskeen, How do I use that translator?

Its not a translator - it allows you to type in arabic characters with an english keyboard. You need to be able to speak/read/write arabic to make any use of it though

?? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?????.

Which means...

He has done so much research he can't find Google translate.

I speak English atlaz, therefore it is logical for me to investigate all relevant information in English before I can start to move onto non English material.

Bwaarp, the internet in a remarkable tool and has great power, however to say that the global security services are ignorant of it's potential or are above miss use of it or any other resource in order to further their Global goals is simply unrealistic!

Why would they ignore it and why would they not use it, do they not have goals and are they not active in the fulfillment of these goals globally?

the internet in a remarkable tool

I think in the context of things like the Arab Spring or the London Riots the internet / social networks were just and available tool, rather than a remarkable one. The internet speeds things up, thats all

When I was I kid I found myself in the middle of the last arab uprising in Tunisia. As a first ever holiday abroad for me and my parents that was quite an experience - came back to school with new words in my vocabulary like 'curfew'. They managed to organise that without facebook, perhaps they used ceefax.

These revolutions are driven by how people feel, not what they told to do, or not do, and they certainly aren't organsied. Libyans can not, and I mean [u]absolutely [/u]can not organise anything! With or without facebook.

maccruiskeen - Member

the internet in a remarkable tool

I think in the context of things like the Arab Spring or the London Riots the internet / social networks were just and available tool, rather than a remarkable one. The internet speeds things up, thats all

When I was I kid I found myself in the middle of the last arab uprising in Tunisia. As a first ever holiday abroad for me and my parents that was quite an experience - came back to school with new words in my vocabulary like 'curfew'. They managed to organise that without facebook, perhaps they used ceefax.

These revolutions are driven by how people feel, not what they told to do, or not do, and they certainly aren't organsied. Libyans can not, and I mean absolutely can not organise anything! With or without facebook.

When I say that the internet is a remarkable tool I mean for Humanity

Interesting, that we have so much evidence from the actual court cases of individuals inciting riots and civil unrest using facebook and then subsequently being jailed once evidence of this is produced and yet we also have individuals stating that you cannot use facebook to incite civil unrest.

To argue that facebook does not have this ability and cannot therefore be misused is to say that the riots did not occur!

Because if the riots did occur and individuals were convicted for using facebook to encite civil unrest, then surely it must be possible?

maccruisekeen if the libyans cannot organize anything who do you propose organized the revolution?

the internet is a remarkable tool I mean for Humanity

There will be a little irony in the fact that "the Internet", or at least the Transmission Control Protocol on which it is partly based, came about from a US DoD requirement to build a military communications network capable of withstanding nuclear attack, then.

Rachel

maccruisekeen if the libyans cannot organize anything who do you propose organized the revolution?

it happened - but it wasn't planned. Libya had no opposition politics, no revolutionary armies. People in a very piece-meal fashion picked up what they had to hand and started to resist. But it wasn't everyone and it wasn't all at once. It caused alot of distress to them to be called "Opposition Forces" "Freedom Fighters" or a "Resistance" by the media, they were just guys, people, folk, who the day before would never have imagined they'd be facing tanks with home-made weapons and defenses. There was a lot of resentment to being described as more of an organised 'force' when they were mostly people who'd never even held a gun before, or thought to fire it in defense of anything.

A big part of Gaddafi's holding down of the population was he just ruined people's plans. If something, anything happened to be successful - a market, a cinema, a library his forces would come in a spoil it all. I'm not taking about cinemas showing progressive films or libraries deseminating revolutionary texts. Just any old thing that was proving to be successful or popular. After 40 years of that he'd spawned a generation who didn't want to do, or try to do anything. They were listless and apathetic and directionless.

When the revolution was sparked it was pretty much the first time the guys involved had done [i]anything[/i] let alone do anything and succeed. The people I've met - its like they've had a light switched on inside them. They've seen absolute terror - lost their homes, swathes of the their family, lost their limbs.... and they are alight. Not like fire but like sparklers. Enlightened.

But try and plan anything ..... "I'll see you guys at your place at noon" about as easy a time and place to organise as I can think of.... one will have not woken up yet, one will have only just gone to bed, one will hopped (literally) on a bus to god knows where. Chaos. Its what british Libyans refer to as "Libyan Time" in reference to Libyan Libyans. Hilarious and endlessly frustrating comedy cluster****.

Sounds interesting, how do you explain the great increase that has been verified by countless independent agencies in the literacy rate from 23% upto 80+%?

How does someone learn with this attitude and mind set? After 40 years of that he'd spawned a generation who didn't want to do, or try to do anything. They were listless and apathetic and directionless.

Also you are missing out the fact that Benghazi is and always has been an Al Qaeda strong hold

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=Benghazi+al+qaeda+hot+spot&oq=Benghazi+al+qaeda+hot+spot&gs_l=serp.3..33i21.242.5802.1.5953.17.17.0.0.0.2.1297.3028.14j0j1j1j7-1.17.0.cghsbq..0.0...1.zbjhXgxeGJs&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=83e30220983779b9&biw=1920&bih=918

Are you saying that armed Al Qaeda fighters simply sat about doing nothing whilst they had mass protests going on, are they blind, def and dumb?

Al Qaeda strong hold

"strong hold" is a pretty meaningless but emotive phrase. You can't put it to any kind of measure or verification unless you count google search results as a measure. "Al Qaeda" means as much or as little as you want it to as well

EDIT, but lets not go there

I'm really getting the impression you're a proper, swivel-eyed, frothing conspiracy nut

You really are a weapons grade muppet aren't you.

TJ would have received a ban for posting stuff like that.

TJ would have received a ban for posting stuff like that.

only if he preceded it with the phrase "And I say yet again....." 🙂

When I say that the internet is a remarkable tool I mean for Humanity

Interesting, that we have so much evidence from the actual court cases of individuals inciting riots and civil unrest using facebook and then subsequently being jailed once evidence of this is produced and yet we also have individuals stating that you cannot use facebook to incite civil unrest.

To argue that facebook does not have this ability and cannot therefore be misused is to say that the riots did not occur!

Because if the riots did occur and individuals were convicted for using facebook to encite civil unrest, then surely it must be possible?

maccruisekeen if the libyans cannot organize anything who do you propose organized the revolution?

The point is - even if facebook/the internet can be used for those means why do you care. If you moderate the internet with a supranational institution it's going to be more open to political bias and corruption than it ever was.

This is like hitting your head against a brick wall repeatedly.

my little brovs got a blackberry and most of his mates have as well, they have them 'cos its free to text messages to each other, not because it's secure.

I'm glad I've got rights, care to share what they might be? 😆

Sounds interesting, how do you explain the great increase that has been verified by countless independent agencies in the literacy rate from 23% upto 80+%?

If you look at a lot of the countries that top the literacy rate, it's not exactly ****ing hard. Whooo yeah he managed to turn Libya from a failed state to a barely failed state! The thing is he didn't ever do much better than that did he, you're underestimating libyans if you don't think they can produce a better state than Gaddafi did. In effect, you are a racist.

Like Mussolini, he did a few good things that were vastly overshadowed by his later career.

Ernie, I only felt the need to say it once. Not rehashing it over and over again.
Kaesae, perhaps your obsession with social media would be better turned towards things like this:
http://www.businessinsider.com/trapwire-everything-you-need-to-know-2012-8
America now, but it's only a matter of time, they don't care about borders.

Interesting that you do not evaluate the facts, but simply distort and fit them to your views?

How exactly was Libya a failed state? compared to the rest of Africa they were doing very well for themselves!

compared to the rest of Africa they were doing very well for themselves!

Maybe the problem was they weren't doing very well for us.