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Every village hall or landowner with a small space could have a similar, reasonable fee for flat ground, perhaps water and chemical disposal point. Job jobbed.
They could, and I'm sure if the council or gov provided a simple off the shelf toolkit many would. eg. signage, payment system, bin collection, clarity on planning and water etc... Perhaps even a region or countrywide "availability service" (not thinking pre-booking - but some sort of indication of busyness). But it needs a joined-up approach with support from the police or others to move on people who turn up find no space and park stupidly just next to it, or who turn up and get the ghetto blasters out, or the fire pit in stupid places...
...but some would also, I think quite reasonably, rather that tourists weren't cluttering up their village hall car park, likely to add to noise, rubbish, waste etc. And we need to respect the fact that just because a minority of people want to drive a van to the countryside in good weather it doesn't mean the majority of people in the countryside want the invasion! I think its also worth bearing in mind that campervans are very much a middle-class toy, and those who can't afford the silly money they cost to buy and run gain nothing from making them easier to use. The reality is, despite their popularity, its still probably only 1% of the population that want to go roadside camping - and if they make the roadsides worse for the rest that's hardly equitable. Even if you don't think you are making it worse because you are always responsible - does parking your van there encourage someone else to park there tomorrow night? does parking your van there mean someone else can't so they park somewhere less secluded and upset some locals - but it was 10pm they were hardly going to go 4 hrs back home? does parking your van there help feed the ambition of others that "that looks like a great thing to do, lets buy a van"? does parking your van there mean two people with small cars can't park there and they end up leaving them is stupid places to walk the hills etc...
Up here the campsites are all fully booked and often want £40+ for a night. I’d happily pay a £5-£10 for an Aire type site with just a tap and bin though.
Is that a reflection of what the true running costs of a campsite are then (when you have to pay staff, rates, VAT etc)? Bearing in mind that demand will be much higher on a sunny Sat eve in July than a wet Wed in October. You want to stay somewhere tidy, with water, waste, possibly power (if you don't some **** will put his genny on, or run his engine at midnight to heat his van!), etc. I've never met a Scottish campsite owner who seemed to be living a life of luxury. Given many local villages will have an official campsite within the area - are they competing with a local business?
EDIT - it seems FCS do have a scheme!
Jordan
grum
ITS NOT WILD CAMPINGTrue, but it’s a commonly used, if innacurate phrase in this regards.
I think @Grum is right to call it out though. We need to try to stop the use of that phrase because:
1. The media, and therefore the politicians, use it without thinking too and then when it comes time to legislate genuine wild campers will get lumped in with the roadside sleepers.
2. People who are too lazy to understand Scotland's access legislation believe "wild camping is permitted anywhere" and thus assume they have a right to park their van in stupid places!
morning wood as you drink coffee in the doorway
Anyone got any bleach for my mind?
We used to do both (T5-based camper). Tried to avoid the crowds but rarely felt comfortable parked up even in very remote location. Can't see the appeal of anywhere roadside or anywhere with another van parked up - we'd always move on and try to find somewhere else. We sold the campervan eventually, moved to a caravan for a few years which worked great with 2 babies and now moved to a large/family tent, so we're restricted to sites for the facilities. I absolutely hate larger sites though and struggle to find smaller/quieter ones to stay at, and even then there's no guarantee of it being a bellend-free zone.
It does look like some efforts are being made to address the most impacted hotspots locally:
Quite an extensive paper linked in that article.
All sounds logical but it looks like it has come unstuck against the grinding local bureaucracy under the cover of can't do anything because of Covid.
Also suspect that the problem will instantly move elsewhere.
I generally use forest car parks or the like - don't see the appeal of that photo from TJ's article!
Generally will be out walking, cycling and/or visiting the local town or village. Never stayed anywhere more than 2 nights.
FWIW my van has its own shower, toilet, bin and power set up etc so is self contained. It's also the same length as my pal's T5.
That Britstops book looks good!
with support from the police or others to move on people who turn up find no space and park stupidly just next to it, or who turn up and get the ghetto blasters out, or the fire pit in stupid places…
And this is one of the reasons why I'm not in favour of new legislation. In most cases it's already an offence to drive a motor vehicle off the public road and onto private land. However, this isn't enforced.
To give a local example... there are car parks at Loch Morlich. FLS have one designated as an overnight stopover, the rest are clearly marked saying it's not allowed. On any given night in Summer there will be a dozen campervans/mohos parked up against this rule. Who so do we expect to enforce it? A couple of young, green, newly-qualified, minimum wage nature enthusiasts. As a result, the only folk that pay any attention to them are the sort of folk that want to be law-abiding. The groups of drunken (mostly) male idiots determined to play at being Bear Ghrylls, chopping down trees and having large fires don't give a ****. A couple of weeks ago the police put in an appearance and moved such a group on. They "moved on" a few hundred metres until the police had gone and just set up again, taking to kicking the ducks too.
To be clear, I'm not criticising the individual officers but new legislation is pointless if we're ignoring the powers already available (see also: LLNTPA camping permits).
Even if you don’t think you are making it worse because you are always responsible – does parking your van there encourage someone else to park there tomorrow night? does parking your van there mean someone else can’t so they park somewhere less secluded and upset some locals
Yep. Also this.
We thought about heading NW in the campervan last Autumn, once the worst of the throng had subsided but decided against it as we just thought the locals deserved a bit of a break.
I want to see a law change to outlaw roadside camping in scotland totally
As soon as the legislation is tabled the outrage bus will be full due to the impact on some communities....
The Aires thing is the way forward, H&I could set up a grant scheme and how to do it instructions to help get them off the ground. You will still get the Muppets in £60k campers too tight to pay £10 but most will use if sited sensibly
I park and sleep in my van but I would hardly call it camping. I don't hang around. More like eat somewhere (eithe pub or take away or maybe cook) them drive to where I sleep. Then in the morning do the reverse. Drive off and buy or cook breakfast somewhere else. I think it takes the piss when you're set up and do several meals in the same place.
Is that a reflection of what the true running costs of a campsite are then (when you have to pay staff, rates, VAT etc)?
Currently in the process of setting up a small campsite and the investment even for a temporary 28/56 day rule one is more than you think. Occupancy rates I expect to be pretty much only on weekends. I don't expect to make a profit this year and that's doing everything and lots of. Recycling / Facebook market place sourcing of materials. Wouldn't be worthwhile at £5 a night.
Fairly local to us
https://www.strathspey-herald.co.uk/news/kingussies-first-motorhome-aire-opens-for-business-243256/
I want to see a law change to outlaw roadside camping in scotland totally
Be careful what you wish for tj. I'd resist anything that reduces access rights for a number of reasons.
Firstly the issues we're seeing now are hugely exacerbated by the pandemic and permanent legislation is a bad way to tackle what might be a temporary problem for many places.
Secondly, it's not like we've exhausted all the options short of an outright ban, there's plenty of things that could still be done to improve matters short of a nationwide ban.
Thirdly, I use my van responsibly, often in the off season. Why should I have to give up my entirely reasonable usage because of others abusing the privilege?
Fourthly, it will be near impossible to police.
And finally, we all know there are landowners out there who will absolutely take the piss out of any change in the law to limit access far in excess of what's been legislated.
yourguitarhero
Full MemberI generally use forest car parks or the like – don’t see the appeal of that photo from TJ’s article!
I used to camp on that beach, in fact we used it several years in a row as our accommodation for the Fort William World Cup - never saw another soul on it. I imagine many of the people of the photo has similar idyllic thoughts but consider themselves committed when they arrive and see it busy. Also worth noting that there are 6 campsites within 1 mile of that beach!
Bloody depressing comparing my own experiences there with the photos 🙁
Perfectly put Spin.
Put the banhammer away tj.
Be careful what you wish for tj. I’d resist anything that reduces access rights for a number of reasons.
But you have no access rights in a camper anyway (and arguably even for roadside tent camping) so its not eroding rights. I'm not convinced it needs any new legislation though.
I accept spins points but I simply cannot see any way other than a total ban on roadside camping
None of the other suggestions will make any significant difference IMO because people will not pay even a fiver if they think they can go free and the number of vans is just too many
Its very harsh on the responsible people I know
Even if you don’t think you are making it worse because you are always responsible – does parking your van there encourage someone else to park there tomorrow night? does parking your van there mean someone else can’t so they park somewhere less secluded and upset some locals – but it was 10pm they were hardly going to go 4 hrs back home? does parking your van there help feed the ambition of others that “that looks like a great thing to do, lets buy a van”?
This is nonsense. You can't lay all that at my door. I'm responsible for my actions, not those of everyone else who sees me.
This is nonsense. You can’t lay all that at my door. I’m responsible for my actions, not those of everyone else who sees me.
its getting into some deep philosophical points but yes - if one person can do it everyone can. If its acceptable for you then its acceptable for everyone.
A total ban on roadside camping would also affect folk who tour by bicycle, many hikers/walkers etc.
I have some sympathy with TJ on this. I live on Anglesey. Many of the beaches around here have the kind of informal free to use carparking that for years the surfers would use to park up vans overnight. The last couple of years its been getting dramatically over used and last summer was madness. There are villages around here that basically have to close the roads on some days to stop people trying to get to the beach - that is before you even get to people staying overnight. Its not sustainable and i dont see it dropping back to a manageable level.
Many of these carparks are now pay and display. It hits us locals harder as these are our local open spaces we use year round. As a resident there is an annual pass - its £170 per car reg! It used to be free.
None of the other suggestions will make any significant difference IMO
Neither will your nationwide ban because it will be impossible to police.
It's interesting that you seem to be pretty big fan of Scottish access legislation in general and the principles behind it (responsibility, local management, that sort of thing) but not in this instance.
It is an unavoidable consequence of a system that gives great freedom that some will abuse it. I'd rather work within the system to tackle the abusers than give up the freedoms.
A total ban on roadside camping would also affect folk who tour by bicycle, many hikers/walkers etc.
And people without a permanent home. They've had a pretty tough lockdown so I suppose another kick in the nuts won't hurt that much though.
Neither will your nationwide ban because it will be impossible to police.
I don't agree. £1000 fine for roadside camping, a few wardens going round collecting number plates and taking photos, everyone gets a £1000 fine in the post
word of this gets round, no one does it any more
i agree trying to move everyone on every night is impossible
spin - roadside camping is not under the remit of the LRA
Its only my opinion but IMO the situation has become so dire it needs such strong action
cycle touring - I am racking my brains but I don't think I have ever roadside camped when cycle touring - always gone a fair way off the road. closest i can thing of was 100m offroad hidden from the road.
In fact, I canny be arsed.
I don’t agree. £1000 fine for roadside camping, a few wardens going round collecting number plates and taking photos, everyone gets a £1000 fine in the post
We all know that legislation like that will never be passed or if it is it will rarely be applied. The max fine in LLNP is £500 but the reality is people just get told to move on.
spin – roadside camping is not under the remit of the LRA
No, but my point was about the spirit of our access laws.
I don’t agree. £1000 fine for roadside camping, a few wardens going round collecting number plates and taking photos, everyone gets a £1000 fine in the post
So how would that be handled if a van was parked up overnight but the driver/passengers was not in it - i.e. they were in a tent half way up a mountain but their mode of transport was a van capable of being slept in? Or were planning to return from their walk late in the evening and move on (home or to a campsite). Or got there at first light (so as early as 3am in the summer in the Highlands) for a walk but did not sleep there. Could be very messy.
Oh what a black and white world.we live in......
With blinkers on
What if I'm sleeping in my estate car
What if I'm not sleeping in my van
What if I'm sleeping in a van that says bobs building.on the outside
Itll stop the obvious campers -nothing else.
I'd like to see shitting in lay-bys /campspots buried or not outlawed..... But by the same token that's not gonna happen.
Advice is also not to drive when tired. To stop for a rest.
cycle touring – I am racking my brains but I don’t think I have ever roadside camped when cycle touring
It is pretty common.
TBH TJ you're coming across here as a city-dweller with a very narrow viewpoint. You should accept that there are folk with very different experiences who have formed other opinions as a result.
Advice is also not to drive when tired. To stop for a rest.
I have a vague memory from a few years ago of 'no overnight parking' signs appearing in Highland carparks and it being challenged in some way on the grounds that it would discourage tired drivers from taking a break although that clearly wasn't what it was intended to prevent.
TBH TJ you’re coming across here as a city-dweller with a very narrow viewpoint. You should accept that there are folk with very different experiences who have formed other opinions as a result.
Interesting if that is how I am coming over
I have been wild and roadside camping in Scotland all my life - first time was when I was 7.
Part of my strong reaction to this is that I have friends living on the NC 500 and they are in despair over this issue.
Oh I do accept others will have other views - hence me stating its just my opinion. I am actually listening to the other views
You should accept that there are folk with very different experiences who have formed other opinions as a result.
Is this your first TJ arguement? 🙂
I have a vague memory from a few years ago of ‘no overnight parking’ signs appearing in Highland carparks and it being challenged in some way on the grounds that it would discourage tired drivers from taking a break although that clearly wasn’t what it was intended to prevent.
Correct. Highland Constabulary said that they absolutely would not enforce it.
Part of my strong reaction to this is that I have friends living on the NC 500 and they are in despair over this issue
My nextdoor neighbor rents campervans and almost all of them head for the NC500, I can go let their tyres down or sugar the fuel tank if you like?
Joking aside, the NC500 thing is shit and needs to be tackled but it is a localised and seasonal problem so a permanent nationwide ban is not the way.
I do a mix of both. Sadly far too many FB groups full of people desperate to tell anyone of great spots there too dumb to find. Also probably a clamp down on the way as lots of very blingy vans parked up in free spots for too long. Retired lump sum peeps frigging it up for the hippies.
I don’t agree. £1000 fine for roadside camping, a few wardens going round collecting number plates and taking photos, everyone gets a £1000 fine in the post
word of this gets round, no one does it any more
i agree trying to move everyone on every night is impossible
I don't think TJ understands how the criminal justice system in Scotland works.
Poly - similar to parking tickets / speeding tickets?
anyway - looks like my thought have been well and truely shot down in flames. Fair enough.
Joking aside, the NC500 thing is shit and needs to be tackled but it is a localised and seasonal problem so a permanent nationwide ban is not the way.
And there are people benefitting from it, so seems that the burden is on them to provide facilities.
I'm not going to say where I was at the weekend - but I was astonished not to see vans in every layby based on the hype about it being a problem... perhaps those who cause problems are the type who lack imagination not to follow a prepared route and so planning type permission should be needed for publicising a route that causes problems for others.
A total ban on roadside camping would also affect folk who tour by bicycle, many hikers/walkers etc.
Only if roadside camping actually means camping in a tent beside the road. If it meant camping within 100 yards of your vehicle, or even sleeping in your vehicle then it would not. Of course then the issues trail_rat raised come up.
Someone has gone mad with double yellow lines between arrochar and the rest n be thankful, and Blue/red (X) not stopping/waiting signs around Argyle. Seems like there is already a process to stop people parking where you don't want them. It can always be a no parking from 11pm-4am if you want to get rid of only the campers, or no waiting from more than 3 hours if you want to permit resting but not camping. Of course, some people will ignore that - just as they would even if TJ's £1000 fines were realistic; and the FCS scheme above seems fairly sensible, and from my passing observations the LLATNP designated camping spots actually seem to be reasonably effective.
Seems to me that "Campers Welcome here" and "No overnight parking" signs are far more effective than new legislation. £5/10 per night - I expect many people would pay, compared to the cost of running a van its trivial.
It is 12 years since we swapped from campervan to caravan.
We always preferred small CL sites to free camping spots unless we were in the Outer Hebrides where there was not much option then except for Lewis and Benbecula. We did get moved on by the lady (writer and wife of the voice of the ring in LOTR but forget her name) above Barra airport once just as I had poured a glass of wine. We just didn't feel comfortable and we are quite picky I suppose.
It has become quite depressing to see the situation on the west coast and North of Scotland now. When we stay on Orkney mainland we stay at a CL with gorgeous sea views, it costs £10 per night and we are often the only people there in July. We have evening excursions and walks and the car parks are full of vans cheek to jowl and it is really quite grotty for want of a better word.
Poly – similar to parking tickets / speeding tickets?
1. they are not £1000; and needs to be proportionate to the problem caused.
2. they are an alternative to prosecution, which has to be paid in 28-days; expect very few people to cough up £1000 in 4 weeks, so they will go to court.
3. at court the fine will be linked to means to pay - so only the affluent would pay £1000+ e.g. drink drive offences are often less than that!
4. to get to court the prosecutor would need to believe it was in the public interest to pursue. They might, but they might not, especially if that meant bringing someone from say Birmingham to Inverness under warrant to answer the complaint because they simply ignore the paperwork. The courts are creaking with case load - I doubt many prosecutors will be prioritising what is essentially a parking offence.
5. who's liable the keeper or the driver?
6. what about the reasonable "excuses" that trail-rat mentioned - they will all choose to go to court regardless of the level of the fine. (I can probably create another 1/2 dozen easily, 'broke down', 'wife chucked me out', 'horrendous weather so decided safer to stop', etc)
7. almost impossible to recover from foreign drivers
8. parking tickets are mostly decriminalised and enforced by councils - they need to detect enough offending to justify enforcement staff; so it only "works" if in fact it "doesn't work".
9. £1000 fine is very significant; if you were wrongly accused of that - you'd want legal representation to help argue your case. Most people won't qualify for legal aid, and we don't repay legal costs if you win in Scotland - so you'll be out of pocket; e.g. for going to court to prove that the land you were parked on was not council owned and you had permission to be there; or that you'd parked there legally in day light and been delayed returning to your vehicle which was not occupied.
etc.
£1000 was just indicative. I was expecting to run it like parking tickets and make the deterrent effect enough that after a while you would not need the enforcement because behaviour changed
Interesting to read all that Poly, not stuff I was really aware of.
i have discussed this before - but what is 'no overnight parking'? 11pm to 1am?, 7pm to 5am? it just isnt clear. Is no overnight parking the same as 'no over campervans'?
We were in north wales last weekend and found a spot where another campervan was. At 10pm noticed a guy writing down our number plate. I went out and he said you cant stay here overnight and that there is a sign but the other van had reversed right upto it so it couldnt be seen. The reason we were given is that they had had problems with dogs running around after sheep!?! We moved on. However, there was also a guy in his car who had one of those giant CB aerials setup. He didnt get moved on or had his number plate taken - he could also have had a dog for all i know! The spot in question is also a popular night fishing location, so can i park my van there whilst i go fishing all night? Im sure there wouldn't be a problem if that was the case.
Therefore, 'no overnight parking' is effectively 'no sleeping in your van overnight'.
Given that, for example, the campsite at durness is first come first serve and there are no easily reachable alternatives at the end of a day of travel, I would suggest roadside parking is somewhat inevitable right up on the north coast at the moment.
Yes, another suggestion is permits. This could be used to limit the number of campervans in any given area and so control the number of folk turning up without a booked spot, or even to just limit the number of folk seeking roadside spots. Like other suggestions it is frought with difficulty; How big an area? How is it controlled and enforced? What if you're a local and have a campervan?
It is also the case that tourism is one of the major incomes of the area and shutting down much of the trade will put many local businesses at risk and reduce existing services like shops. What is required is a structural move away from Macdisneyland towards other forms of employment but I can't see any Scottish Government taking that on in a meaningful way. Certainly not this one, courting ****rick Harvie and his desire to stop the A9 dualling program in favour of improving the Highland Mainline rail line.
I think the explosion of apps has done it.
No ones got any imagination. Once it's on the App you've hords of people. Unlike booking a pitch the app doesn't tell you 360 people have rocked up that week and the locals are pissed off.
One of my favourite places near a pub now is no camping as the carpark held 8 cars and big Van's just took over and moved flower pots and clogged the place up.
Helmsdale last year the harbour carpark was full of campers. As in door handled. No room for anyone else. But what i dont get is why youd do that. To me if your gonna wild park do it for solitude.