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Similiarly, if you ask the census question, then follow it with "Do you believe in Christ", only 48% of all the "Christians" do. And just over half believe in God. That's a bit tricky really.
Amusing
Do you have a link ?
I want to send it to someone
TA
What did Jesus say before he died on the cross?
No-one touch my £$%&ing Easter Eggs, I'll be back on Monday.
"Immaculate Confection"
Edit: too slow 🙁
Much Obliged sir
Does it really matter? Seriously other than people who should know better getting upset because David Cameron said something which might be nothing more than strictly factually accurate does it change anything?
Would "Britain is a multi faith country which accepts your right to believe our disbelieve (an act of faith in its self since disbelief has zero basis in fact , otherwise it would be disprove) what you like, but asks that by and large you observe the Christian traditions of this country and follow the moral code into which you in the UK are educated (which is coincidentally based on the Christian and therfore Jewish belief structure, since predominantly all education in this country stemmed from the church at some point, but is in no way exclusive of your non christian belief), and asks that you largely accept public holidays based on christian festivals and that you consider working Sundays to be something requiring extra pay and or reduced hours since its the Christian holy day, but in no way requires that you go to church, and we accept Jesus wouldn't recognise the church today anyhow since it didn't exist until several centuries after he died and he was Jewish after all." be any better?
Does it really matter?
Yes
Yes. Because if this is a christian country, then it becomes arguable that laws, education, social and cultural policy should reflect that. Since we're not, then it's not. And when it's the Prime Minister asserting that we're a christian country, that's cause for concern. Maybe it's just empty noisemaking, maybe not, but there are plenty of people who do think along these lines and we could do without encouraging them.
I'm not religious at all but I can still see why it's not too nice as a muslim or a sikh or a pastafarian to be told that "this is a christian country not a noodly country". Truth is we are not a religious country full stop, so let's acknowledge the level playing field, whether christian or any other religion, you're a respected minority among minorities. Nothing good can come of misrepresenting that, and plenty of bad.
[quote=Northwind ]if this is a christian country, then it becomes arguable that laws, education, social and cultural policy should reflect that
Though as pointed out above, laws etc. do reflect that.
It seems to me we have two options
1. The state becomes totally secular and we abandon all Christian festivals and holidays
2. We become multi cultural/religious and embrace all festivals and holidays.
In the interests of maximising time on the bike, I would propose we throw our combined weight behind option 2.
Northwind » if this is a christian country, then it becomes arguable that laws, education, social and cultural policy should reflect that
Though as pointed out above, laws etc. do reflect that.
Just off the top of my head:
Sunday trading
Equal marriage
Divorce
Abortion legality/limits
The fact some laws aren't doesn't mean that laws in general don't reflect.
most of the "laws" reflect social norms that predate Christianity in this country . Of the Specific old testament ten commandment's only don't kill and don't nick and don't do perjury feature in our law .Of the few thousand laws scattered through the bible most are about clothing choice, diet, owning slaves and some pretty appalling treatment for rape victims . None of which thankfully feature in "our" laws. Our laws do not reflect Christianity but some pan cultural norms essential to living in stable settled communities.
Truth is we are not a religious country full stop, so let's acknowledge the level playing field, whether christian or any other religion, you're a respected minority among minorities. Nothing good can come of misrepresenting that, and plenty of bad.
I agree with not misrepresenting. So let's start with the truth - we are a religious country with an established church. We also are very tolerant and respectful of other religions indeed we have laws that protect that. All in all, a pretty good place to live. Plenty of bad from trying to pretend otherwise.
[i]we[/i] are a religious country
Speak for yourself.
Edit: Oh. Perhaps you were?
We have an established church yes, but that's merely a historic fact. It doesn't make the country as a whole Christian. Given that Sunday services apparently attract about 1M attendees and a very small percentage of the population actually attend church or believe in God or Jesus as the son of God, I find it difficult to agree that this is a "religious country".
No Woppit....it's fact. Good, bad, indifferent according to your view, but fact nonetheless. It's even on google.
It's when people make stupid sweeping statements like 'we are a religious country' that it becomes annoying. Hardly anyone I know is religious, and very few adults as a percentage of the population actively take part in anything religious.
The idea that the religious have a monopoly on altruism, morality and anti-consumerism is a false and harmful one.
No Woppit....it's fact. Good, bad, indifferent according to your view, but fact nonetheless. It's even on google.
Depends how you define 'religious' - we've already established why the census isn't a worthwhile source of evidence. If we're so religious why don't more people go to church?
'we are a religious country' that it becomes annoying. Hardly anyone I know is religious, and very few adults as a percentage of the population actively take part in anything religious.
Yet 75% of the population identify themselves as having a religion, go figure!
If we're so religious why don't more people go to church?
Isn't faith based on belief, rather than going to a particular building regularly, after all, God, if he exists, is everywhere 😉
we've already established why the census isn't a worthwhile source of evidence.
In a poll conducted by YouGov in March 2011 on behalf of the BHA, when asked the census question ‘What is your religion?’, 61% of people in England and Wales ticked a religious box (53.48% Christian and 7.22% other) while 39% ticked ‘No religion’.When the same sample was asked the follow-up question ‘Are you religious?’, only 29% of the same people said ‘Yes’ while 65% said ‘No’, meaning over half of those whom the census would count as having a religion said they were not religious.
Less than half (48%) of those who ticked ‘Christian’ said they believed that Jesus Christ was a real person who died and came back to life and was the son of God.
Asked when they had last attended a place of worship for religious reasons, most people in England and Wales (63%) had not attended in the past year, 43% of people last attended over a year ago and 20% of people had never attended. Only 9% of people had attended a place of worship within the last week.
Isn't faith based on belief, rather than going to a particular building regularly, after all, God, if he exists, is everywhere
Yes, and most people don't believe in god. Ergo, most people are not religious.
most people don't believe in god
You could ask 'do you believe in god?' and only get a 30% yes answer -
at the same time I reckon that if you asked 'Does god exist?
Yes,
No,
Maybe
I'd be willing to bet my house that you didn't get anywhere near the 70% remainder coming up with a definitive No!
I would love to know how the brain functions in the 65% who say they are not religious having previously stated they are Christian.
I would love to know how the brain functions in the 65% who say they are not religious having previously stated they are Christian.
You're making it sound more complicated than it is. Some people claim they are Christian, when asked "are you religious" which they take as meaning do you go to church regularly, do you pray every day, etc, they answer "no". A fairly simple concept to understand imo, even if you don't necessarily agree with it.
In typical fashion, I have just read the posts above on this page, rather than any of the preceding pages, which clearly gives me every reason to suggest that a belief in whatever one defines as god, need not have anything to do with a or any doctrine.
I would love to know how the brain functions in the 65% who say they are not religious having previously stated they are Christian.
You could read the rest of the thread, where it's been explained several times over?
a belief in whatever one defines as god, need not have anything to do with a or any doctrine.
Offhand, I don't think anyone's suggested otherwise. Though I'm not immediately seeing where you're going with that? Do you mean that the answer to "what is your religion?" could be "none / other" if one believes in a higher power but doesn't subscribe to an organised religion? Makes sense but I'd speculate that that situation would be about as statistically relevant as "Jedi."
But there again, maybe it is pretty common. If pressed, how many people would say "well, I don't know for sure, but I feel there might be 'something' up there"...? Hm.
Oh has this turned into a religion thread? I'd better read back.
Save yourself the trouble Molgrips....
You could read the rest of the thread, where it's been explained several times over?
Do many people read religious threads in their entirety ?
Obviously I would expect the usual religious debaters to do so, but for most people it's always the same argument but with a different thread title. I would have thought.
I would love to know how the brain functions in the 65% who say they are not religious having previously stated they are Christian.
According to [url= http://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/files/files/Post%20Religious%20Britain%20pdf.pdf ]this Theos report[/url], 11% of atheists identify themselves as Christians. 5% of atheists believe god is a "universal life force".
🙂
Yeah, it wasn't very good, was it?
This is a post-Christian country, that's all there is to it.
ernie_lynch - MemberYou're making it sound more complicated than it is. Some people claim they are Christian, when asked "are you religious" which they take as meaning do you go to church regularly, do you pray every day, etc, they answer "no".
OK, make it more complicated, how about the "christians" who don't believe in christ? They're a bit like all the cyclists in here who never ride bikes I suppose.
Yeah, it wasn't very good, was it?
It did have a gem somewhere when someone said "we are a religious country".
OK, make it more complicated, how about the "christians" who don't believe in christ? They're a bit like all the cyclists in here who never ride bikes I suppose.
Is there a poll which identifies Christians who don't believe in Christ ?
As far as the cyclists on here who never ride bikes is concerned how would you know ?
In the last 7 days due to plenty of spare time I've been on an organised ride (either club or with mates) everyday bar Sunday - when it was pissing down, I even bumped into a regular from here at Leith Hill yesterday, but I generally don't like talking about cycling as I consider it to be a deeply personal and spiritual experience.
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[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/04/briefing-britain-a-christian-country/ ]Some more statistics[/url]
It would appear the majority of younger voters do believe in god of some form - probably simon cowell.
The irony of this debate is that the atheists are saying it is divisive, yet representatives from many other religions who reside here have been entirely comfortable with the speech, agree with the fact the UK is a Christian country and are entirely comfortable with that the fact.
The irony of this debate is that the atheists are saying it is divisive, yet representatives from many other religions who reside here have been entirely comfortable with the speech, agree with the fact the UK is a Christian country and are entirely comfortable with that the fact.
Religious organisations/people tend to 'side' with other religious people, rather than people with no religion. IIRC, at least one of the signatories of the letter sent by the National Secular society was a religious leader.
This sums it up for me: http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2014/04/the-debate-over-david-camerons-call-to-christianity-has-taken-a-wrong-turn
It is unfortunate that the debate has turned into "Is Britain a Christian country?" because it opened the doors for those Christians who don't understand secularism (or who prefer to misrepresent it) to turn the whole thing into an attack on their personal faith.
[b]The question we really need to ask is "Would Britain be a safer and fairer place if it had a secular constitution?"[/b]
EDIT: these threads always get depressing.
Not sure what that has to do with anything. I'd like to think a country is more than just its constitution.EDIT: and if these secularistas think society can be reduced to mere documents then that tells you a lot about the narrowness of their view of the world. Glad I'm not one.
Secularism doesn't say anything about a view of the world, other than thinking church and state should be separate.
From [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism ]Wikipedia[/url]:
Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and religious dignitaries.
You can be a secularist [i]and[/i] religious.
Edit: the sentence before the one you quoted included the phrase "Christians who don't understand secularism" 🙂
mefty - MemberThe irony of this debate is that the atheists are saying it is divisive, yet representatives from many other religions who reside here have been entirely comfortable with the speech,
1) The question of divisiveness isn't just about the religious, it's about the irreligious too.
2) Just because "representatives" say it is so, doesn't mean it is so for all.
Edit: the sentence before the one you quoted included the phrase "Christians who don't understand secularism"
There's precious little I *do* understand, now you've just knocked another one off the list 🙁
Nice example from [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2014/apr/07/eric-pickles-britain-christian-nation-athiest ]Giles Fraser[/url]:
Christianity was, among other things, an exposure of the violence of the Roman state towards those who did not share its values. That is what the cross is all about. Christianity went bad when it became appropriated by the Roman empire and the cross went from being a symbol of political oppression to a religious form of state triumphalism. Which is why all Christians should be extremely queasy about any cheap talk of us or anyone else being a "Christian nation".