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I am taking a long term perspective on Germany (not this weekend). They created an amazing system that worked for them at the cost of most of the rest of Europe. Created immediate competitiveness for German corporates at the expense of their European competitors and then exported inappropriate IR policies that created the bubbles throughout the rest of the peripherary. And now, ignoring their own fiscal performance, Merkel is insisting that this is only a crisis of fiscal deficits. With this diagnosis she is commiting the peripherary to the likely forthcoming train crash. No one is a real winner in this though.
Succinctly put. All along its been within Germany's power to stop the Euro crisis. All they have to do is step in as the guarantor of last resort. They have the resources to do this. However Merkel knows that as soon as she does this without fiscal union the Italians and Greeks will breathe a sigh of relief and start backsliding on their austerity programmes which will result in the German's having to bail them out big time. If she'd got the fiscal union she was after this week then it would probably all be over my know. As it was Sarkozy blocked her as he knew he could never sell full fiscal union to the French electorate. They've now agreed some sort of wishy washy re-enforcement of the stability pact which is going to do nothing to placate the markets in the long term.
He'll be the far-sighted genius who stopped us from entering the euro.
I agree the one good thing Culpability Brown did was to keep us out of the Euro. Hopefully because he thought it was the best thing for Britain but I suspect he did it because, control freak that he is, he couldn't stand the thought of surrendering some of his control over the British economy.
Gordon Brown. He was about to go down in history as the idiot who destroyed the UK economy. Not any more. He'll be the far-sighted genius who stopped us from entering the euro.
You do have to give him credit for his five tests - a very clever way of making it look like we wanted to be part of the club, but with tests he knew it wasn't possible to meet. There were plenty of people who didn't want us to enter the Euro - he was the one who came up with the scheme of making it look like we did without having any intention of doing so.
Plus Tony Blair wanted us in which was another reason for Brown to keep us out.
TandemJeremy IMO the lib dems best hope of avoiding electoral disaster is to ditch Clegg, collapse the coalition and fight on an anti tory platform - " we tried our best to make it work for the good of the UK but can no longer"
Your so right Tamdemjeremy
But I still think it will be the end for them for years to come
Even seen Clegg on TV this morning He was well embarrassed, but still supporting
the tories to a large degree.
Im surprised no one has interviewed Gordon Brown on his reasons
why he never put us fully in the EU
If milliband can play a blinder?
TJ . That's genius! You've now convinced me that you are the foremost satirical comic presently at work in our great nation! When can we expect to see you hosting Have I Got News For You? Have you recorded it already? 😀
Hence the [b][i]IF[/i][/b] Binners
If milliband can play a blinder?
Thats a very big IF, Tandem and just not going to happen
I think everybody already knows the result of the 'if' though. He's utterly hopeless
Open goal?
It's going in row Z mate
Open goal?It's going in row Z mate
*s****s*
I'd say Dave's current biggest problem is Vince. Can't see him wearing it!
GLITCHY BUMPY THINGY AGAIN
62% support DC use of the veto. 19% oppose.
stillglitchybumpynonsense
I'd suggest that at least 80% of those quizzed have no idea what he was "veto-ing" or why.mcboo - Member
62% support DC use of the veto. 19% oppose.
I'd suggest that at least 80% of those quizzed have no idea what he was "veto-ing" or why.
Make that 81%, and you could suggest that only the "don't knows" fully understand the issue.
😛
uponthedowns - MemberI agree the one good thing Culpability Brown did was to keep us out of the Euro.
And yet David Cameron and George Osborne wouldn't necessarily agree with you.
Cameron and Osborne not only liked the Iron Chancellor's opposition to the Euro, but the were also particularly enthusiastic with two other central planks of Brown's economic policies.
Firstly they wholeheartedly agree with his decision to give the Bank of England independence to set interest rates, a decision which was described at the time as the most radical shake-up in the bank's 300 year history.
And secondly, after 10 years of Brown's tenure as Chancellor of the Exchequer they fully supported his public spending plans.
In fact they were so supportive of Labour's public spending that George Osborne [u]pledged a Tory government would match them[/u].
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6975536.stm ]Tories 'to match Labour spending'[/url]
Quote :
[b][i]"A Conservative government would match Labour's projected public spending totals for the next three years, shadow chancellor George Osborne has said."[/i][/b]
Of course when the devastating effect of the banker's global recession/credit crunch became apparent, Cameron and Osborne, the eternal opportunists, quickly changed their minds. But right up 'til that moment they were very enthusiastic about Labour's projected public spending.
So there you have it...... on the three issues which have come to characterised Gordon Brown's time as Chancellor of the Exchequer - Bank of England independence, UK exclusion of the Euro, and public spending, Cameron and Osborne have fully supported him.
Sorry to piss on your chips lads.
And btw just for the record although I supported Brown on exclusion from the Euro, I did not support him either on BoE independence nor on tax and spending.
Far more separates me and New Labour than separates the Conservatives and New Labour.
Listening to the politicians, I reckon 80% of them dont know what he was veto-ing (and that's in the Tory party :wink:)
Ernie - I think that (GO's comments) were purely electioneering, but now he is spending and borrowing even more. So you right, basically very little of significance between Lab & Tories in terms of real policies - of course a gaping chasm in terms of rhetoric...most of which is pure BS
And yet David Cameron and George Osborne wouldn't necessarily agree with you
So what Ernie. I didn't mention them you just did. You seem to be obsessed with them for some reason.
Far more separates me and New Labour than separates the Conservatives and New Labour
And therein lies Thatchers greatest achievement in shifting the centre of British politics to the right.
So what Ernie. I didn't mention them you just did. You seem to be obsessed with them for some reason.
Yep, it was me who mentioned them, ie, as in : [i]"And yet David Cameron and George Osborne wouldn't necessarily agree with you"[/i]. I can't see the bit where I suggested [i]you[/i] mentioned them - can you ?
And as for "obsessed with them", well one is Prime Minister and the other is Chancellor of the Exchequer, so kinda hard to ignore them......wouldn't you agree ?
Anyway, you sound a little miffed.......did I piss on your chips ? Sorry 😀
It'll be interesting where the Lib Dems in the cabinet sit in PMQs this week (is there one this week? when does the xmas recess start?)
It'll be interesting where the Lib Dems in the cabinet sit in PMQs this week
Well if Cameron can't make it due to the fact that he is otherwise engaged, then the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, will be at the despatch box........putting the case for the government. And presumably defending it from hostile questions.
I bet he's relishing the thought - he has always seemed to.
🙂
Lib Dems? The passive wing of the Tory party.
Looks like Nick likes his ministerial car a bit much to actually MTFU and grow a pair! Pathetic! But he still looks like Conan the Barbarian next to Wet Ed! We're in this mess because we haven't got an opposition worthy of the name!
It's thoroughly depressing really
Anyway, you sound a little miffed.......did I piss on your chips ? Sorry
Sorry to disappoint you Ern I don't take you that seriously- just trying a little wind up on you 😉
Now lets all hope DC doesn't make it the PMQT -it would be great theatre to have NG standing in. What a great thought ernie
Well according to Europe 1 this morning Britain is now "hors jeu", which means off side in footy and reverting to your real self in role play games. The veto is being celebrated in that now the brakes (the UK) are off Europe can really move forward. They even quoted Pompidou who wasn't too keem on Britain joining the union in the first place.
Personally, the EU has opened lots of doors for me and I thank Mr Heath for overcoming Pompidou's reticence.
A financial analyst thinks Cameron's plan to protect the city will backfire, Frankfurt will be more than ever seen as the financial hub of Europe.
Well according to Europe 1 this morning Britain is now "hors jeu", which means off side in footy and reverting to your real self in role play games.
Well it won't be the first time sunshine. And of course once again Europe will thank us.
A financial analyst thinks Cameron's plan to protect the city will backfire, Frankfurt will be more than ever seen as the financial hub of Europe.
Jeez more than ever? That much eh?
We were promised a referendum on Lisbon but Brown dodged it. This is way overdue.
It is noted that it is the same people squeeling now about the veto are the same people who said we ought to be in the Euro.
Mcboo- Brown dodged nothing and there is nothing to have a referendum over here - we need a public vote cos an stupid prime minister beholden to a bunch of deluded xenophobes made a serious miscalculation in an EU negotiation and used a veto unnecessarily leaving us stuck 26:1 on the outside?
"Looks like Nick likes his ministerial car a bit much to actually MTFU and grow a pair! Pathetic!"
...and let the Labour party in?
If there's any M'ingTFU to be done, it's around realising that forming a coalition is always going to lead to serious dilemmas and you don't solve them just by flouncing out.
Forget Europe. It's a busted flush. We should be looking to trade with the growing economies - the "BRIC" nations. I find Allister to be as pursuasive as ever, this morning:
http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis/allister-heath/david-cameron-was-right-say-no
But Woppit, that would require some kind of government support for business growth. And maybe the banks lending to business so they could target and expand into those markets. And we all know that neither of those things are going to happen under this shower
Forget Europe. It's a busted flush. We should be looking to trade with the growing economies - the "BRIC" nations.
Speaking as someone that used to facilitate trade with the B, R and C of BRIC, that's easier said than done.
In any case, even after 20 years of reasonably consistent government support, high economic growth and relative geographic proximity to the rich bits, trade with Russia is nowhere near trade with Ireland or even Denmark for that matter: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/feb/24/uk-trade-exports-imports (OK, those figures are probably particularly bad year but it's still generally true). You can't suggest just shrugging and walking away from traditional European markets like it doesn't matter any more.
But Woppit, that would require some kind of government support for business growth. And maybe the banks lending to business so they could target and expand into those markets. And we all know that neither of those things are going to happen under this shower
Maybe because the banks are terrified of the UK capitulating to Europe and them thefore being on the hook for whatever financial legislation Germany deems fit to land on them to forward the advancement of the 4th Reich, on top of their current exposure.
Take Europe out of the game, focus on the BRICs and I reckon things would look a little better.
the 4th Reich?
Dear God! Which tabloid editorial did you garner that particular gem from? 🙄
The situation in North Africa and the middle east may pay dividends in the future also, if liberal democracies take root and the markets open up.
Big "if", though at least in the short term, although Libyan oil may provide some opportunities if they decide to play ball.
Libyan oil may provide some opportunities if they decide to play ball.
The entire population of Libya is less than that of two regions of Poland, and GDP (PPP) per cap is 20% lower than in Poland.
Or, to put it another way, even if Libyan GDP grew 20% and all trade barriers were lowered to intra-EU levels, it would still be less important to UK trade than the arse end of Silesia.
the 4th Reich?Dear God! Which tabloid editorial did you garner that particular gem from?
Hehe. 'tis a bit Daily Mail, eh?
Seriously though, can you honestly say that the creation of the EU hasn't been overly advantageous to the German economy compared to other members? They seem to have reaped a metric assload of benefits through making their exports competetive in what was previously a difficult market for them, and are now looking around for help to clean up the mess created by the common currency/seperate fiscal policy disaster that is the Eurozone.
Mr Woppit - MemberThe situation in North Africa and the middle east may pay dividends in the future also, if libeal democracies take root and the markets open up.
There is absolutely no chance of any "Liberal Democracies" taking root - its not what the west want and its not what is going to happen
.....if they decide to play ball.
LOL, and you accuse Germany of trying to take over Europe while coming out with such nasty nationalistic gems.
There is absolutely no chance of any "Liberal Democracies" taking root
True Dat Uncle Jez. The law of unintended consequences looks like delivering us at least one new government of psychotic, wacko Islamo-nut-jobs though
Another Western intervention in the Middle East comes up trumps eh? OOPS!
Erm... Just thinking about where we can make some dosh, MSP. That a bad thing now? And, er, I didn't accuse the Germans of anything. Have you had your coffee today, yet?