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Interesting that several countries who have 'signed up' to this have already said it will probably need to go to a national vote to be agreed.
So the uk could yet be far from the only one....
:"We chose to pick up the ball and leave the pitch before the game started", according to Lord Kerr, Britain's former ambassador to the European Union under Margaret Thatcher and then John Major. He told the BBC that he found it "odd" that Prime Minister David Cameron had chosen not to negotiate on the new treaty, saying it is "conceivable that the management of the Conservative party was a factor in his thinking"
maybe they dont want to end up paying for the markets reckless behaviour
But Germany is the country that has now put in the treaty that the 'Markets' no longer need to take a 'haircut' on their exposure to Greek debt. Prior to this agreement, that has always been the case.
I'd think that this is due to the 'Markets' in this case mainly being German banks who recklessly fueled a southern European property bubble.
If it was British, or American banks that were mainly exposed, do you think the present agreement would have the same clauses?
Love this pic
[img] 
[/img]
Wonder what CMD was thinking there 😆
I think the press are being somewhat disingenuous to suggest that its only Britain that has reservations about the whole project
Disingenuous is what the press do - they're professionals. It suits their agenda (and that of numerous other countries - notably Germany and the others who haven't signed up or might pull out) to have a baddie though.
aracer
On the figures, latest news now shows 24
(Hungary added to the earlier 23 from here
)
with 2 (Sweden and the Czech Republic) putting the proposal to their respective parliaments.
I'm not "making assumptions" about scope for Cameron to negotiate, just observing that 26 other national leaders , all with their own complex political issues and independant agendas, found scope to negotiate before forming a mutally acceptable agreement.
Cameron did the opposite and chose to have no influence on the formation of the ageement, just veto it. Choosing that option is completely different to " walking away from an ageement he had no influence on". It also severely undermines the UK's power of veto in future European negotiations, as now there is a new Treaty under which 26 members can hold negotiations without UK representation.
(BTW I'm not surprised you've not been challenged on anti-German rhetoric, there's plenty more of it in the British media today)
EDIT: I agree our Euro Sceptic media like a baddie, hence my comment above.
I'm not "making assumptions" about scope for Cameron to negotiate, just observing that 26 other national leaders , all with their own complex political issues and independant agendas, found scope to negotiate before forming a mutally acceptable agreement.
Cameron did the opposite and chose to have no influence on the formation of the ageement, just veto it.
Did they? Or did they just accept the agreement which was cooked up by Merkozy? My reading also suggests that CMD did attempt to negotiate, but Merkozy were unprepared to yield at all to his suggestions. Given the same agreement whether or not he signed, I don't really see how much more influence he'd have had if he'd agreed to it.
It also severely undermines the UK's power of veto in future European negotiations, as now there is a new Treaty under which 26 members can hold negotiations without UK representation.
Repeat after me: it's not a new treaty.
William Middendorf in Berlin, Germany emails: The summit will surely resolve the euro-crisis. There is no EU crisis apart from Britain being foolish and not looking towards the future. The euro can easily live without Britain, but can Britain live without the eurozone?
🙄
Just because the Eurozone leaders* have agreed some loose, wooly agreement in theory, means eff all. It doesn't mean for a second they'll be able to get it past tehir electorates or parliaments
What the rolling crisis of the Euro-zone constantly proves is that every single one of these summits always ends with 'the solution', but within ten days its all fallen apart again. Cue the next 'crisis. As none of the underlying structural problems are actually being addressed
This will be no different. It'll give them a weeks grace. 2 weeks tops!
Daves probably got out just so he can save the air fares on dragging everyone to another summit every other week 😀
* as always the word is used figuratively, and does not infer any actual leadership taking place
Both Finland and Sweden have both said they may yet withdraw. Finland does not want qualified majority voting and Sweden has said this
Swedish prime minister Fredrik Reinfeldt has given his backing to David Cameron's position, saying it would be "unreasonable" for a non-eurozone country to sign the treaty that was presented last night.
"It seems a bit odd because the whole text is written to make eurozone members submit to certain restrictions and do certain things," he told Sweden's TT newswire. :"A non-eurozone country can't reasonably sign up to that.”
Mr Reinfeldt said he still had to discuss Sweden's participation in the inter-governmental treaty with the national parliament, but hinted that Sweden, like the UK, would stand outside.
“Sweden, which isn't a member of the euro, does not want to tie itself to rules which are completely tailored for the eurozone,” he said.
according to Lord Kerr
I wouldn't listen to him, his first name is wayne.
Sweden has said this
Sounds like we're not alone. From an economic perspective, I'd far rather be aligned with Sweden than Italy, Portgual, Spain, Ireland, Greece.
Reading around this, I've found a suggestion that Sweden is "obliged" to join the euro, but it seems the majority of Swedes oppose this, and they're putting it off. Is there some timetable saying they have to join by a certain date, or can they just put it off indefinitely (in which case the "obligation" isn't worth the paper it's written on)? Anybody have any more details?
It takes the Telegraph to get to the heart of this
In short, there is no breakthrough of any kind that will convince Asian investors that this monetary union has viable governance or even a future.Germany has kept the focus exclusively on fiscal deficits even though everybody must understand by now that this crisis was not caused by fiscal deficits (except in the case of Greece). Spain and Ireland were in surplus, and Italy had a primary surplus.
As Sir Mervyn King said last week, the disaster was caused by current account imbalances (Spain's deficit, and Germany's surplus), and by capital flows setting off private sector credit booms.
The Treaty proposals evade the core issue.
Did France and Germany really have to cause this rift by throwing in an assault on the City that has precious little do with the EMU crisis? Yes, I suppose they did.
Given that Merkozy cannot bring themselves to accept that Europe's debacle stems from the euro itself, from a 30pc currency misalignment between from North and South, and from an over-leveraged €23 trillion banking bubble that German, French, Dutch, Belgian regulators allowed to happen… given that, yes, I suppose they have to find a scapegoat.
They have to whip up a witchhunt against somebody, so why not Anglo-Saxon bankers? Nasty reflexes are at work. German and French politicians in particular should be very careful about inciting populist hatred against a group that makes such easy prey. We have been there before.
aracer - Member
William Middendorf in Berlin, Germany emails: The summit will surely resolve the euro-crisis. There is no EU crisis apart from Britain being foolish and not looking towards the future. The euro can easily live without Britain, but can Britain live without the eurozone?
Was this guy in an A'stad coffee bar when he wrote this (and then posted it from Berlin)? How many errors in one para:
Error 1: The summit will resolve the crisis
Error 2: There is no crisis...
Error 3: Can Britain live without the eurozone?
Britain can't live with a 888888 Europe but that is a different story
mcboo - MemberIt takes the Telegraph to show eurosceptic xenophobia
I invoke Godwins law
Christ on a bendybus! I never thought this would happen! I've just read an editorial piece in the Telegraph and found myself nodding in agreement with pretty much all of it.
Where did it all go wrong 🙁
Its yer age binners - slippers, stopping smoking, torygraph - all goes together
As it this is not enough, listen to the mild response from Le Monde is France:
“Let us play fair. The British aren’t to be blamed for the euro crisis. They carry no responsibility in the inability of eurozone leaders to solve their sovereign debt problems.”Le Monde goes on to say that the real reasoning behind Britain’s unwillingness to tie its fate to that of the EU is that British “don’t believe in the European idea. They are strangers to this project that is today becalmed, but which appears to be more vital than ever”. The British have always been only interested in one thing– the single market.
“They are indifferent to the remainder of the European project, as long as it is not hostile to them.”
Apparently the cold shoulder clip between DC and NS was take out of context (otherwise it was an amazing clip), they had just shaken hands off screen according to the FT.
I am puzzled? The FT reports Christine Lagarde claiming that EU leaders have committed $200m in a bilateral loan to the IMF so that the IMF is in a position to be able to fun (effectively) the EU???? What am I missing here, is this just another ponzi scheme?
mcboo - MemberIt takes the Telegraph to get to the heart of this
😆
Pulled off the BBC feed
So the markets think the deal will workLatest from the Italian markets: Stocks have jumped more than 3% in trading towards the end of Friday's session. Shares in Italy's biggest bank, UniCredit, led the rally.
a common theme in no UK commentatorsThe New York Times says Prime Minister David Cameron's "fateful decision to veto the idea of renegotiating the European Union treaty on Friday has left Britain as isolated as it has ever been in postwar Europe and effectively left out of future European decisions".
Former Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt, who is currently an MEP, tells the BBC that Britain's David Cameron made a "tactical and at the same time a strategic mistake" in putting Britain outside the new European deal.
Asked by BBC World Service if Britain would lose power by taking the position it has, former Italian PM Romano Prodi replies: "Of course. you've gained freedom but you've lost power!"
glitchy bumpy thingy
As Madame just commented: Cameron is trying to do a Thatcher. Thatcher though was renegociating an unfair deal, Cameron is refusing to sign up to a fair one. Her other comments would get me a ban.
Sorry, double post.
Edit: I take it your first attempt didn't appear then appeared when you reposted TJ?
TandemJeremy - Member
Pulled off the BBC feedLatest from the Italian markets: Stocks have jumped more than 3% in trading towards the end of Friday's session. Shares in Italy's biggest bank, UniCredit, led the rally.
[u]So the markets think the deal will work[/u]
That's quite a leap you have made there.
Yeah? Italy in trouble according to teh doom mongers - shares in italian banks rise says to me the markets think italian banks are OK now. To simplistic?
shares in italian banks rise says to me the markets think italian banks are OK now.
😯
You'll be OK TJ, Scotland will declare independence and join the Euro...
The more Cameron takes the Uk away from the EU the more likely it is that Scotland will vote for independence [i]in europe[/i] as a part of the consensus here is internationalist and outward looking.
I'd rather be 'in' with the yanks than part of rapidly loosening collective of nations that had massacring each other as a national pastime until 65 years ago.
The Euro will fail (eventually) or the southern countries will be kicked out.
Whatever you think, remember Harold MacMillan's quote when De Gaulle refused Britain EU entry after reeling us in for a couple of years - 'the French always betray you in the end'.
So the markets think the deal will work
And of course the markets always know best 😀
If only we had deregulated the markets and allowed them to operate freely without government interference, then we wouldn't be in this mess today 😉
Although it yet remains to be seen whether the EU has done enough to appease the "markets".
But on the face of it, it was indeed a bold move by the EU. After experimenting with limited democracy for a 100 years, and very effectively stifling any moves to replace it, capitalism in Europe has now started to seriously roll back the burdensome process of allowing people to have a say in the policies of their government.
The EU (read global financiers) have now decided that the previous arrangement was untenable and in future all major economic and social policies affecting member states will be dictated by unelected EU commissioners.
So it seems that the threat by global financiers to undermine the creditworthiness of countries such as Germany and France has paid off. And everyone is falling into line, with Germany and France bullying the smaller states into submission.
Of course none of this will work long term, eventually global capitalism will be consigned to the dustbin of history. The only question which remains unanswered is how much misery will ordinary people have to endure before enough is enough.
And of course the markets always know best
When they move to suit!! More likely short positions merely closed over the weekend?
Please do read the details especially the bit about enforcing fiscal discipline - look at juts how this is going to be done. Then shake your head, sigh, sit down and have a drink. Its soo European (ie a complete fudge)
Uncle jez - your position on this confuses me somewhat. Your clearly an avowed democrat. Yet what's happening in Europe is the side-lining of the democratic process. And increasingly the unelected European comision issuing dictatats from a centralised bunker! And imposing their rule on countries that refuse to adhere to their orders
It's bankers and financiers and technocrats that will be increasingly controlling European policy. How do you square that? it's inherently contradictory
About the only correct decision he has made so far !
We heavily really on the Banking sector for taxes and to
let that go would be more than mad.
The eluded €uro is no way out of the dumps yet and still
on borrowed time.
There is no way we should go into it and should be scrapped all together
Just make the trading between countries easier
The €uro is a bottomless pit for other countries to bleed us dry
this is an act of pure folly & fake pique by our prime minister. it would be one thing not to sign this agreement it's complete childish stupidity to walk out of the first meeting, what a knob.
So klunk, what would you have done ?
And walk out of the meeting ? Didn't hear/see him doing that.
So (out of interest) Klunk, do you believe that he should have voted for the EU to have the prior say on the fiscal policy of the UK, before our elected representatives?
in future all major economic and social policies affecting member states will be dictated by unelected EU commissioners.
^^This^^
The EU is moving away from any sort of democracy. This is not a good thing.
Klunk without being present at the meeting and knowing what was said, it's unfair to judge.
So now we have a bunch of elected(well nearly!) morons running GB rather than a bunch of unelected morons. Small mercies, eh?
Mostly, I'm glad we're not in the Euro. At least we have some semblence of control over our monetary policy. I say semblence, because we are at the mercy of the aforementioned markets and particularly the bloody credit ratings agencies.
Whisper it quietly, but this is what I think is going on here. Britain finds itself in the cart. The major cause being individual greed on an international level being fed by corporate greed on an international level - underwritten by unsustainable growth. However, years of government overspeding previously has made the situation a good 25% worse than it would have been othewise.
Now, because of the instantaneous flow of information, anything we do is factored into our credit rating. If we do nothing, we lose our rating, our interest payments go up and it doesn't matter how many nurses we sack, we can't get out of it. So here's what we do. We announce a horrible short-term programme of cuts - we have to. Then we drag our heels over actually implementing them because all the time, we are praying for worse economies than ours to go under. When enough of these have happened and they have dragged their allies/trading partners down to our level, we are closer to the mean average of crapness than we otherwise would be. Then hey, we are, in real terms only marginally less crap than we used to be, but in relative terms we are better off.
Sorry to reduce our national economic policy to a game of brinksmanship, but isn't that what we've always done in a crisis. Threatening to let Greece (there they are again) go communist unless the US helped us out with a loan is a good example.
[i]And walk out of the meeting ? Didn't hear/see him doing that. [/i]
that empty chair is not going to protect our interests is it. There be nothing to sign for months. But hey what do we care, nothing to do with us now is it.
So you would have merrily* signed up to the deal on offer ?
* artistic licence.
we are at the mercy of the aforementioned markets and particularly the bloody credit ratings agencies.
really the agencies follow the markets, not lead them.
Ratings will follow the apparent direction of the spreads.
Where they dont help is when institutions have automatic triggers based on ratings. Whilst they can hold a bond with a notionally sub-standard yield, as soon as the agencies drop the rating they have to sell that bond, compounding the problem by increasing the supply.
Automatic triggers are the most dangerous exacerbator of volatile markets.
[i]So (out of interest) Klunk, do you believe that he should have voted for the EU to have the prior say on the fiscal policy of the UK, before our elected representatives? [/i]
[i]Klunk without being present at the meeting and knowing what was said, it's unfair to judge.
So now we have a bunch of elected(well nearly!) morons running GB rather than a bunch of unelected morons. Small mercies, eh? [/i]
as i said fake pique, he could have easily bided his time and said as the Czech andSwedes I need to take this back to my parliment for consideration, keep a bargaining position and a seat at the table. I say again how does the empty chair protect our national interest ?
Am I the only person who finds it amazing to watch so many people, so much time etc being spent in these discussions with the result that remains so far behind the real world and the financial markets that it beggers belief? It is quite extraordinary that so many able people can continue to misunderstand and misdiagnose the current crisis.