Tony - to oversimplify - the profits by the local shopkeeper drops to perhaps to the point where he is no longer profitable thus he ends up on the dole paying no taxes as well. certainly the taxes he pays are reduced as well
the other point tony is that these are no t hard times and we can easily afford it. Its an idealogical choice
jimster - Member
Can someone explain to me how we are going to pay for the public sector workers who's jobs are cut, will stop paying taxes/services start claiming benefits?
Haven't you heard? We're going to unprecedented economic growth in the private sector, Osborne said so.
The public sector pays tax, but the salary they're paying tax on comes from tax taken from the private sector. By it's very nature the public sector isn't a wealth generating sector. Do you pay someone £30k per year to take back £5k in tax or pay them £10k per year in benefits? As harsh as it seems it's got to be more cost effective providing services aren't affected too dramatically. Numbers are a guess but the point remains.
WTF!?
Another example of how the cuts will actually harm private enterprise and cost more money in the long run:
I'm not saying everything should be subject to market forces, of course I don't beleive that essential public services such as the NHS, binmen, etc should be driven by profit. I do think it would be nice to know that the money we pay in taxes to finance these services is spent wisely though.grum - Member
Your faith in market forces is touching, but is something only valid and useful if it's possible to make a healthy profit out of it?
Personally I don't want to live in a society where every single aspect of life is about wringing profit out of it.
Me neither, ortherwise I'd move to America.
BTW the dreaded 'double-dip' seems to happening right about now - well done Dave...
In Dave and George's words "We're in this together"
A bit like Vanessa Feltz reassuring an anorexic!!
Haven't you heard? We're going to unprecedented economic growth in the private sector, Osborne said so.
As I asked later
Who are our trading partners, and are they not in recession too?
more to the point wtf do we have to trade?
canada made it out of its slump because of its huge wealth in natural resources and growing manufacturing base
we have neither
BTW the dreaded 'double-dip' seems to happening right about now - well done Dave...
Hmmm, I think maybe it's too early for this lot to have had that kind of impact - it was gonna happen whatever.
Trading partners jimster? Well the rest of the developed world of course. You know, all those countries coming out of a recession like us and trying to rebalance their economies like us, and hoping export growth will fund the return to, and then sustain growth, like us.
tiger_roach - Member
Hmmm, I think maybe it's too early for this lot to have had that kind of impact - it was gonna happen whatever.
I wouldn't be so sure. Cancelling a huge schools building program is going to have an immediate impact on the construction sector. Plus the markets function - in part - on confidence and future expectations, the new govt has a great influence over that. Impeding job losses in the public sector will impact people's consumption decisions. Cuts to public sector spending will have similar effects for private sector contractors who rely on public monies for work.
Tiger - nope - its two things are impacting on the figures atm - both teh condems fault.
VAT rise and confidence.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10934302
Hmmm, I think maybe it's too early for this lot to have had that kind of impact - it was gonna happen whatever.
Well, except that lack of consumer confidence due to massive job cuts is stalling spending and the housing market etc etc
'm not saying everything should be subject to market forces, of course I don't beleive that essential public services such as the NHS, binmen, etc should be driven by profit.
I'm not sure that your chosen political party agrees with you there.
I do think it would be nice to know that the money we pay in taxes to finance these services is spent wisely though.
Agreed - I just have absolutely zero confidence that Cameron etc actually give even the slightest shit about it, let alone are capable of sorting it out.
kimbers - Membermore to the point wtf do we have to trade?
canada made it out of its slump because of its huge wealth in natural resources and growing manufacturing base
we have neither
How's the drilling going off the Falklands? Did they hit oil yet? It's all gone quiet.
Fingers crossed that could solve all of our problems - lots of lovely oil money to the rescue, and another war with Argentina to boot! There's nothing like a good war (that we might be able to win) to divert everyones attention.
CaptJon / TJ
Yep but it's still too early to see the impact in the stats; house prices are starting to fall it seems but that ain't because of the new Gov't.
the inside buzz in the oil industry is that any oil thats in the falklands is very hard to reach and theres not very much of it, theyve been looking there for at least the last 20 years and not found any so far
it says more about the lack of oil left in the north sea that they are willing to send rigs from there to the bottom of the world
The Bank said the main factor behind its prediction that inflation would remain higher than previously forecast was the government's decision to raise VAT to 20% from 17.5% at the start of next year.
house prices are starting to fall it seems but that ain't because of the new Gov't.
Why is it then genius? How can you be so sure.
Nationwide's monthly consumer confidence index released today also shows households are growing more wary about making major purchases, are more cautious about the housing market and increasingly believe their income will fall over coming months.In its first report since George Osborne presented his emergency budget in late June, Nationwide said its headline consumer confidence index for July stood at 56, down sharply from 63 in June and the lowest since the depths of the recession in April 2009. It has now fallen for three straight months.
The expectations index – which reflects how people feel about the economy, labour market and household income over the next six months – was also the weakest since April last year.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/aug/11/recession-unemployment-economy-government-cuts
Cuts to public sector spending will have similar effects for private sector contractors who rely on public monies for work.
Yeah, even if you can get them, you'd be mental to agree to a long term public sector contract now, with them cutting random stuff, as the link to the playground cuts above shows.
Joe
Hmmm, I think maybe it's too early for this lot to have had that kind of impact
Certainly having a huge impact in IT!
It's all just minor changes to the previous government's already announced policies really. No surprise, as you can't really change that much in a short time, despite all the breast beating that accompanies these announcements. Small changes to existing plans, big noises to seem to be doing far more.
grum - they will have an impact I'm sure but as house sales take months to go through the current stats don't reflect the most recent changes.
i think kelvin has a good point nulabs proposed cuts werent much different from the torries, if not as immediately drastic
its just that a lot of people were fooled by the great rupert murdoch -gordon is the devil- media hysteria whipped up pre-election to scare people into voting tory
The future is not necessarily as bleak as portrayed on here. First, the revised BofE forecast for growth of 2.5% for 2011 merely brings it into line with the government's own forecast at the time of the budget of 2.6%.
Second, exports are growing, despite the commonly held belief on here that this is impossible because we don't make anything. Exports grew 6.4% in the second quarter compared to the previous one and year on year growth was 15.5%.
What is interesting about the BofE growth forecast is actually the reporting of it. The BofE does not make a central growth forecast instead it publishes fan charts. It is from these that the media derive the numbers. Both the Guardian and the Telegraph have derived 3%, whilst the BBC has derived 2.5%. What does this say about the BBC spreading doom and gloom?
I have no doubt that Cameron will turn out to be a colossal twunt, however Brown was a colossal twunt as was Blair, as was Major.
However bad this current bunch turn out to be, I'll never quite get over the let down last bunch of barstewards turned out to be. For that reason I'll never, ever vote Labour again.
Cutting public sector will be self defeating as the benefits bill rises and the tax take falls - thus the deficit will not be reduced.
Lets take that to its logical conclusion. We should employ everybody who is currently on the dole in the public sector. It doesn't really matter if they do a useful job or not, the money they get paid gets spent in the shops, resulting in it all coming back as taxes, so it doesn't really cost anything at all. Genius. I can't believe nobody has thought of this before.
TandemJeremy - Member
the other point tony is that these are no t hard times and we can easily afford it.
Can we? How? By borrowing more money? We have a massive and growing deficit and an even larger debt, particularly once you take into account things like PFI and pensions liabilities. The interest payments alone on the debt are horrendous, I can't remember the numbers now but something like more than the education budget?
Maybe not, but as I already stated I don't agree with all of their policies.grum - Member
I'm not sure that your chosen political party agrees with you there.
Do you think Labour were/are any different? A lot of the inefficiencies are there thanks to the growth of the last decade.grum - Member
I just have absolutely zero confidence that Cameron etc actually give even the slightest shit about it, let alone are capable of sorting it out.
This is all typical of boom time attitudes when there's lots of money to play with and the sun is shining, in both public and private sectors. I work for an IT company, during the pre y2k boom we threw money at everything because it was the easiest way to solve a problem.
Database/application running slowly? No problem, here's half a million dollars - buy some newer, faster hardware as it's easier than tuning your app/DB to work more efficiently.
Can't manage the workload? No problem, employ another 20 people and make the guy who's just finished University their manager - it's faster than training people up properly and finding an experienced manager. Even better, bring in a load of contractors and pay them ludicrous amounts of money.
We've spent the last 9 years trying to undo a lot of that, shedding about 40% of the workforce along the way with no or below inflation pay rises for those left. You can't undo that kind of exuberance overnight in a private sector company, let alone the public sector when you have to manage all the political fallout that comes with it.
I've just spent the day coaching a bunch of "delinquent" kids thorugh a charitable trust to whom they have been refered. Ages 8 - 13.
An observation:-
Most of them are screwed up due to their home lives. Many of the issues their relate to parents who were screwed up, no doubt by their screwed up parents too. These kids will most likely be the druggies/chavs/petty criminals of our future. There was not one of them that was not redeemamble or who was an inherantly evil indidivdual, quite the reverse. Guess what? Yep thats right fundings been cut not just for this lot, but also for the local sustrans organiser who organsied today for them. Result? Pretty much guarantee that these kids have just had their life chances severely cut too. Will it save money either in the long or short term? doubt it, but it will defiantely fast track them down a road of pretty much no hope.
There are plenty of far more fruitful places to look for cuts, Trident, The Royal Family, Westminster, to name a few. So why pick on these people? Is it becuase they are never likely to vote, let alone vote TOry.
In answer to the OP's original statement. Yep mans a twunt, and we are screwed already. I didn't actually believe it was possible to **** things up this quick, but you've got to give it to em. It has to be some sort of record.
