[Closed] Cameron blames teachers for decline in school sport

So THM - how can you train in an equestrian sport without a horse?

tj, it was THM's raising of this that piqued my interest. -His original comment (about the Guardian) of course is quite right:

its important to understand in-built biases. "Some" if not "all" history (and economics teachers) might get and teach that as well as sport!

When a debate seems to circle around:
1) CMD's criticism of state school teachers,
2) whether or not "you get what you pay for"
3) the need/superfluousness of additional funding for sports traditionally excelled in by those with a public/private school background,

...then it becomes all the more important to understand the possibilities of in-built bias amongst those who were educated by the state or by the private sector, and those who teach for the state or in a public/private/crammer school. I am not so black-and-white as to be seeking to 'out' THM as a Tory, but I am curious as to why he would seem to be so reluctant to back up his points on a thread so tied up in those three issues with more background to the professional position from which he makes them.

I am sure the other well known teachers on this forum will happily ackowledge that the different people and places they teach to/in brings them different outlooks on both the practice/experience of educating, and the political environment in which that education happens. To pick three prolific and open contributors to such threads: aganellis', miketually's and don simon's employers and workplaces all being different, their students all being different ages and there for different reasons. I know this because all three have been quite willing to discuss this on the forum in the past. Why not THM? ❓

No need to out him as a tory - its so obvious his right wing bias. The amusing thing is that his insistence of right wing dogma as apolitical and the norm / accepted wisdom on any vaguely political thread. I think this says a lot about the circles he lives in.

Nice baiting of TJ as per your norm DS what a positive contribution you have made to the thread

PS I made the same point much much earlier but you forgot to mock me.
When the debate is whether money enables you to partake in sport the question is one of wealth and that you need to have some spare cash to have a horse.
I contrasted this with why you see so many working class footballers because it requires a ball and this is quite cheap

Still you just wanted to bait TJ so i dont know why I actually bothered typing that I suspect this is the correct playground level required

So you and Z-11 joined in to simply bait TJ....... FFS 🙄

I'm waiting for Internet Arguing to become an Olympic Sport.

Would 16 days be long enough?

if Internet arguing were an Olympic sport, nobody from STW would be in the medals! Take your pick...

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

FFS 🙄

al, time for a STW Olympics Thread don't you think?

@DD: ❓

Well since you mention History teachers;

DISCLAIMER;Obviously as a teacher I accept my experience is open to challenge from this congregation of big hitters as they know better.

That being said;sport in state schools;
1)An increasing number of kids and parents now mostly feel they are doing you a favour by playing.
2) I run rugby teams for which I get no thanks from either parents or (most)pupils or management.
3)If I am going to say, Glasgow in the Scottish cup on a Wed afternoon, I will not be home till 7/8pm. I can expect the school to view the time spent taking a sports team as "non contact" and issue me with cover periods for absent workmates to cover the time I have been on a jolly.
4)I had to rake around to buy strips,obviously I was not allowed any sponsorship that the team could do in school.
5)Risk assessments...
6) Union trying to stop us doing any extra-curricular; Not in Scotland.
7) Non competitive nature of sport? Can't say I have noticed.
8) 25% of the pupils at my school refuse to do PE of any kind,the school cannot do anything about it.Parents just TELL the school their child will not do it and refuse any sanctions such as detention for not doing them.
9) Local clubs often pressure the pupils not to play for the school.
10) HOWEVER; Seeing my u18 side dismantle much bigger/better resourced schools with the somewhat "robust" style I have instilled and seeing the self belief and spirit instilled in them in the six years they play a game that requires discipline and commitment and....what were the previous 9 I mentioned?

Waves at TJ.

al, it'd be the kind of thread only you could get away with starting. 😉

*waves at duckie and blows a kiss*

How you doing big fella?

DD; getting there, back to work next week up here.

Erm...OK...what's it to be about then?

In answer to your question, reference our latest equestrian gold medalist. Glad she didn't fall for the idea that money is the only key to success.

Out of interest was that the same gold medal winner who was saying that she only managed to be in the sport because of her Grandmas will enabling her to buy a horse? Clearly not at all effected by funding then?

I think the point you are missing is that no one is actually claiming that it is the only key to success, however they are saying it is a pretty damn important one, as history and recent events quite clearly demonstrate.

I am saying it is a threshold

no money means you often dont participate- even thm cited an shotist as an example of this
No funding means you have to juggle work and training
No rich parents/affluent schools mean you never do rowing, horse riding stuff or sailing so who knows what talents we are missing out on

after that point it would take commitment, application, dedication but if you withdraw the money all that wont matter as you can no longer do the sport to your best and in many cases at all.

I dont really know why this is controversial tbh.

I haven't been reading this thread but,

Just seen a post from TJ on Facebook, he's just received a lifetime ban from STW after his posts on here.

I'm not going to comment on the decision, but figured the forum should know.

🙁

Tbh, from his entrance into the thread, it was only going one way.

No rich parents/affluent schools mean you never do rowing,

Berm Bandit - Member
I think the point you are missing is that no one is actually claiming that it is the only key to success, however they are saying it is a pretty damn important one, as history and recent events quite clearly demonstrate.

Exactly right BB and going back to my OP.

teamhurtmore - Member
2. Spending money is important but not the only answer

Hence the question, "And the contraversial bit is?"

I do agree with you JY except there is plenty of evidence, even today, to show that the "no rich parents" comments can be falsified.

But forget the arguments for a moment, let's just hope that everyone pulls together to ensure that, first-and-foremost, perceived and real obstacles to children participating and enjoying sport are removed. Then, that real talent is properly nurtured and allowed to reach its full potential. Money should not be an obstacle to this and let's hope that no child is left with the idea that this is the case. That would be a shameful legacy. After all that is what education is really about - Hence Dr Seldon's reference to Harvard Uni's Howard Gardner. I went to a lecture by Seldon and bought these books to see what he was going on about. A lot to take in but worth it if anyone is interested in wider aspects of educating young children.

I see Evan Davies (R4) has just done the sums and shown that more Team GB medals have been won by state-educated athletes than private schooled. Also, that London, Yorkshire and Scots educated have won the most medals.

Not sure if this makes any difference to this thread though...

7 % are privately educated what was the split?
{For clarity given what is going on that is a genuine question as i missed the show and there is no hidden agenda]

duckman, great to see another teacher contribute to this thread with his cards fully on the table. 😀

Teamhurtmore, since it wasn't the wonderings about what your education and professional experience brings to the table that got TJ banned (after all, not a peep about it at my end: unlike both TJ and your good self I have never once been 'moderated'), I will remind you yet again that it would be nice in the interests of your comment earlier:

its important to understand in-built biases. "Some" if not "all" history (and economics teachers) might get and teach that as well as sport!

Off to bed now. Since you seem to have been active on this thread all evening, hopefully I will have a slap on the wrist or an answer on here in the morning. 😀

@ jy above - Sorry - only heard it on the way to the pub so not sure of the detail.

Chemistry teacher and do rugby and athletics. State school educated and private school employed.
No extra payment for coaching or Saturday sports, yes we have good facilities but in order to keep them going we hire them out when the school isn't using them.
I do think that there is more of a "let's do it " ethos, or perhaps more of the staff step up. I genuinely believe that the strikes of the eighties ruined school sports in the state sector, with lots of people suddenly realising what a weekend with your own family was like. How you get that mindset back is the problem. That and the fact that a surprising number of parents are willing to criticise and comment on something you have volunteered for but not so willing to step up with the time and training.

Julian, good questions and avoided because I did genuinely go to fit in swim training before the 200m final. Reticence is due to involvement in "related project" that is far too early to discuss. Many of the issues raised in the thread explain why this is ex UK! However, core theme is that money should not determine accessibility to the best in education (but is required for its delivery). Among current WIP is role of sport (!) and other ECAs and how this is linked to core theme. So there, my bias is laid bare!

Re history, not my area of knowledge, but I am impressed at how the subject has developed from one that was overly based on factual learning and remarkably biased IMO (when I was at school) to one which emphasises the use of analystical techniques to understand bias and the appropriate use of materials and sources. So it would be nice if history students picked up the Daily Telegraph (OP) recognising where it might be biased (clue in the headline) but then dig behind this to see if there is an alternative message or use of the material. IMO there was in this case, but this is not an opinion that is widely shared obviously!

Well done Duckman, your scottish experience is also how i see schools in england, although i dont run a rugby team i do plenty of other after school stuff. Most people have no idea.

So it would be nice if history students picked up the Daily Telegraph (OP) recognising where it might be biased (clue in the headline) but then dig behind this to see if there is an alternative message or use of the material. IMO there was in this case, but this is not an opinion that is widely shared obviously!

It's not about bias in the Telegraph article/headline - I base my view on direct quotes of what Cameron actually said. He quite clearly said that the main problem was a lack of competitive ethos and teachers not wanting to join in.

Again, I'd like to know what the evidence is for this - otherwise it just looks like he's using his own personal prejudice (which you seem to agree with) to inform policy.

I do think that there is more of a "let's do it " ethos, or perhaps more of the staff step up.

Probably easier to have a 'let's do it' ethos when you have more resources/facilities, and the staff are better paid.

Julian, good questions and avoided because I did genuinely go to fit in swim training before the 200m final.

...yet you managed to fit in replying four or five times to other bits over yesteday evening whilst I chipped away, including when TJ picked up on it (and didn't quite make it party political again!) How peculiar for you to have nevertheless managed all those other posts whilst training. 😕

Reticence is due to involvement in "related project" that is far too early to discuss.

What do those projects have to do with the experience and outlook that your own education and teaching career might bring to your opinions? A couple more teachers seem to have managed to back their comments up with their backgrounds without making it obvious to anyone who they are or where they work. What are the chances of anyone that knows you in the real world/professionally who is reading this not having worked out who you are already suddenly realising it's you?

If I hadn't seen you 'chase' the likes of TJ and JY with multiple posts/questions for smallish points on other politix/economix threads, I probably would have gioven up as you really seem rather evasive, but if it seems to be OK for you to do so to others, then I am sure you won't mind me continuing to press for the details.

no money means you often dont participate

No rich parents/affluent schools mean you never do rowing, horse riding stuff or sailing so who knows what talents we are missing out on

I would say that no moneys means that often you choose not to participate.

I have been lucky enough to know a number of athletes from different sports who have risen to international competition including some of the sports mentioned in this thread. The common denominator is pure desire to rise to the top and making huge sacrifices to do it. Many of them have entered the sports at grass root level by begging/borrowing the resources they need to achieve their dreams (including bikes, horses etc).

The crucial factor in their success is desire to achieve not financial capability. The commitment and effort put in to succeed is amazing.

Some of the opinions on this thread about success in certain sports being out of reach of normal people are not indicative of my real experience of these sports and the people that have risen to national and international level.

No rich parents/affluent schools mean you never do rowing

Yet again, I'll point out the fallacy here. People who row don't usually own the boats. Clubs own them and rowing has changed massively in the last 20 years or so in terms of availability to people who aren't rich or even just middle class.

eg Liverpool, chosen as an area with plenty of deprivation.

Liverpool Victoria rowing club: J16/unwaged: £112 (£11.20 per month for 10 months)

I'd be interested to know how that compares with the local football kids' clubs

Yet again, I'll point out the fallacy here.

Yes, I'm sure going to Eton which has an olympic rowing lake doesn't offer any advantage.

my real experience of these sports and the people that have risen to national and international level.

So why the disparity in elite sportspeople from private schools then? Or are you just arguing that rich people are better?

Yes, I'm sure going to Eton which has an olympic rowing lake doesn't offer any advantage.

Of course it will early on but if you look rather than sticking to stereotype, plenty of internationals started rowing after school or started at clubs rather than the stereotypical posh schools. Eton always provided lots of good rowers even before Dorney was in place and they only trained on a pretty average stretch of water.

(not to mention that Eton are pretty free with use of the lake and as it goes, the lake itself isn't the benefit as it's not actually great water for training on. The benefit in eton is lots of boats so lots of kids try rowing and excellent coaches to get the best of those that do. That exists in other places where there isn't so much money though it clearly will be more hit and miss. Same as most sports basically.

The whole notion of school sport needs a massive overhaul.

The vast majority of schools are stuck in the past with a very limited number of sports on offer and very little pupil choice. As a result of this pupils are disengaged

Most schools I know offer a fairly traditional range of team and individual sports, the only way pupils get something different is if they do it themselves or if there is an enthusiastic teacher who is willing to volunteer to run other activities.

There are plenty of different models to deliver this but as usual the problem comes down to money. There just isn't any to pay for external providers.

I do think that there is more of a "let's do it " ethos, or perhaps more of the staff step up.
Probably easier to have a 'let's do it' ethos when you have more resources/facilities, and the staff are better paid.

The ethos is probably because this type of school wasn't so badly affected by the 80's strikes so the thinking persisted. I'm unaware of a pitch being affected by money. We dont have a pool or a rowing lake, yes we do have a sailing activity but the boats are leased from a club. The kids do at least twice as much sport as in the state sector but to allow that to happen the school day is longer. 0830 until 1700 and coaches don't get paid extra to do it.

The school doesn't see these activities as extra but co-curricular slightly different mindset.

Eton's not the only rowing place though, is it? Fairly sure I've seen people doing it elsewhere.

When i was at school we sorted out our own football games without the need for a teacher. We formed a team and entered competitions too. I also went to thai boxing classes in my evenings. I didn't need or want any teachers involvement. Later on I joined the army and was lucky to continue doing athletics, football, rugby and other sports to a decent level. I got offered pro trials when I left.

There are other ways if you want to take some responsibility for yourself rather than waiting for the state to sort you out.

There are other ways if you want to take some responsibility for yourself rather than waiting for the state to sort you out.

Careful now, some round here dont like that kind of thinking....i sometimes get the feeling there are plenty on here who want income tax raised to about 75% across the board and for the state to arrange, organise and supply everything!

I don't see why we bother educating children at all, why not just let those with a bit of personal responsibility educate themselves? And parenting, bloody waste of time, kids should look after themselves. I mean what could possibly go wrong.

Honestly the problem is many who have had the opportunities seem to think its all down to their own hard work and don't respect those opportunities and the work done by others in enabling their access to opportunity.
Thankfully most of our gold winning athletes seem a little more realistic and humble in recognising their path to success.

MSP to a certain extent I agree with you. Three of this years leavers are schoolboy internationals some of which is down to the opportunities they've had in coaching and time but beyond 1st XV level they've spent a huge amount of effort to get where they are.

But we do have a future olympian and current European champion as well as several British champs (in their age groups) and none of the sports they take part in are run by or through the school.

Chris Hoy was independt school educated but they did not have a cycling activity. Does hcome under the "they get more opportunities" banner?

Later on I joined the army and was lucky to continue doing athletics, football, rugby and other sports to a decent level. I got offered pro trials when I left.

There are other ways if you want to take some responsibility for yourself rather than waiting for the state to sort you out.

So you proved that you could take responsibility for yourself without involvement of the state by joining the army ?

Chris Hoy was independt school educated but they did not have a cycling activity. Does hcome under the "they get more opportunities" banner?

Unless he built his own velodrome, he must have had access to facilities at some point, so yes he has had opportunities, access to coaching and equipment etc. that he hasn't financed all before he became successful.

So you proved that you could take responsibility for yourself without involvement of the state by joining the army ?

Yes I did. Everyone I knew back then was joining the dole queue for state handouts. I made something of myself, got what I wanted out of it and left after the period I signed up for.

That question probably sounded clever in your head.

[s]Cameron blames teachers for decline in school sport[/s]

never mind that rubbish.

i blame school sports for the decline in sports.

for 'sports' to become a part of your life, you have to enjoy it, and nothing sucks the joy out of an activity better than forced participation. it's even more effective if you have no natural talent for the activity in question, and it's raining, and it's February, and the only thing that'll take the edge off the hypothermia is the vicious dead-legging you'll receive from the teachers tame thugs as encouragement to try harder on Thursday.

Yes I did. Everyone I knew back then was joining the dole queue for state handouts. I made something of myself, got what I wanted out of it and left after the period I signed up for.

That question probably sounded clever in your head.

Obvious more than clever.

My personal experience of the military is that the state does everything for you.

Don't be silly ernie, they are just a loose association of independent minded adults, it has no structure or state backing to speak of.