The IEA there pointing out that privatised rail companies are badly managed, and offer poor value for the exchequer. Interesting.
This was very funny though:
(2) If the national rail function were carried out by express coaches and lorries on an uncongested network, then the fuel consumption would be reduced by 24%.
😆
Govt spending per passenger is 5 times higher for rail than road. Perhaps rail with it’s very limited choice of routes is just an expensive but poor choice for most journeys apart from a few city centre to city centre routes?
Is that including all the indirect subsidy for cars? Like enforcing motoring law, like all the ill health and death etc etc etc
Govt spending per passenger is 5 times higher for rail than road. Perhaps rail with it’s very limited choice of routes is just an expensive but poor choice for most journeys apart from a few city centre to city centre routes?
Says the neoliberal hard-right thinktank that put Truss and Kwarteng in government.
Conveniently ignoring that:
1) Roads rely on massive private investment (i.e. a core concept is they expect everyone to be able to afford to buy and run a car). Imagine the outcry, and how good public transport would be, if we spent that extra £4000/person* on it.
2) Unlike trains they're not scalable. You can add train capacity in relatively space efficient ways and take car's off the roads. Whereas gridlock on train strike days just demonstrate quite how inefficient roads are for moving n+1 of cars.
*45p/mile, 9000miles,
Look, I love trains, I use them wherever I can and I wish they were cheap and available. I'd be buying back houses and buildings to re-instate Beeching cut lines if I were in charge. But these comparisons with car journeys made by including the cost of purchasing and insuring etc the car are quite brainless, aren't they? Because you don't buy a car solely to do that trip, most people have them for other reasons. I pay all those things for the convenience of being able to drive to go climb mountains or whatever I want to do, so those costs don't all go against any individual trip, in my accounting and in most people's I'd expect.
Obviously not a like for like comparison but it does show how cheap motoring is, partly due to the subsidies.
It's not exactly a subsidy for motoring, it's more like an investment in transport infrastructure for the benefit of the nation. What we need is (much) more investment for public transport, don't call it a subsidy.
There’s a limit to how far you can book in advance,
Have you tried to book a Manchester to Euston recently? Currently booking in advance means a fortnight, beyond that the tickets don't generally exist.
It’s not exactly a subsidy for motoring, it’s more like an investment in transport infrastructure for the benefit of the nation. What we need is (much) more investment for public transport, don’t call it a subsidy.
You're right, it's not a subsidy, a subsidy would imply be paying for something out of taxation (based on ability to pay) and giving it to everyone (according to need). Spending on car based transport, at 33million cars, that £4000/person makes it equivalent two thirds of the NHS's budget. And it's regressive, you're required by the system to buy into it regardless of income.
Imagine if we said the "NHS is free, you've all paid for it out of your taxes, but to actually access it you have to pay an extra £4k a year to own your own hospital bed".
Currently booking in advance means a fortnight, beyond that the tickets don’t generally exist.
And after that the trains don't.
These threads are always the same. People make helpful suggestions like:
-Split the fare
-Book from another station
-Use this/that booking platform
-Travel on the first Tuesday after a full moon
-Get an open flexi day multi single seat unreserved full un flexi return for part of the journey
My question is why on earth should it be that complicated? How are is a fair system when you need to know multiple different ways of booking?
Years ago I had to book tickets urgently to travel to a funeral. I sat with three colleagues, we all went online and we all came up with different prices, ranging from £40 to £400.
I booked tickets last night for my daughter to travel Edin to Kings X. LNER, Lumo and Trainline all coming up with different prices. Ended up paying only £40 return. Then you hear of others paying £300 to travel a shorter journey
The system is crazy complicated. I have no idea how foreign visitors navigate the system.
The system is crazy complicated. I have no idea how
foreign visitors90% of people navigate the system.
FTFY
The amount of money spent by the government on motoring even after motoring taxation is taken off is huge in comparison to the amount of money spent on railways if you include all costs. Most folk adding up the costs of motoring have an agenda and do not consider all the indirect costs ( and one or two the agenda is the other way)
If motorists paid the true cost motoring would be much more expensive
Was thinking just the same thing about foreigners. If I’m on anything other than LNER I feel exposed. Only comfortable with LNER cos I’ve been doing it for that long which illustrates the problem perfectly.
To MOAB point
I was told by a colleague this week that more and more folk are working a 4-day in office week – and Friday is the ‘work from home day’ in London, therefore the number of train users on a Friday afternoon as plummeted…
Yeah LNER super off peak now seemingly valid all afternoon / evening on a Friday (normally not valid between 1400-1900).
Have you tried to book a Manchester to Euston recently? Currently booking in advance means a fortnight, beyond that the tickets don’t generally exist.
I just ran it through thetrainline. I can book returns up to mid-June, which would correlate with my half-memory of "six weeks in advance." If I only want one-way I can book well into July.
That said, if you're flexible on travel time it doesn't seem to matter any more. Tickets can be had this weekend for less than thirty quid each way.
But these comparisons with car journeys made by including the cost of purchasing and insuring etc the car are quite brainless, aren’t they? Because you don’t buy a car solely to do that trip, most people have them for other reasons. I pay all those things for the convenience of being able to drive to go climb mountains or whatever I want to do, so those costs don’t all go against any individual trip, in my accounting and in most people’s I’d expect.
So just Amortise those costs, they're not imaginary: 1/365th of your insurance/VED/Finance(if applicable)/Servicing/W&T costs then add up the fuel, ULEZ and parking costs you incur going into that there London. of course it's hard to put a price on the damage to your mental health that driving a car round London must do. And, as ever, we all still ignore the amount of subsidy that our various taxes pour into roads every year...
Most transport is pretty piss poor VFM in the UK these days, but that's by design and what the great unwashed keep voting for.
If you can put up with the long journey times there are still coaches I suppose, which do take advantage of the same subsidised road network as cars, but do benefit from the scalability of moving ~50 odd passengers rather than ~4. National express and Mega bus are now the real transport choice for plebs...
Bicycles are still pretty good VFM though 😉
I was in Denmark last week. Arrived at Copenhagen airport, walked to the train station at the terminal and used a machine to buy a one way first class ticket for the next train to Aarhus. €35 for a first class ticket, the train was bang on time and stayed on time for the entire 3.5 hour journey. Train was fast, quiet, lovely and comfortable, and had tables, charging points, coffee, biscuits, and water.
All in all a very enjoyable trip. Came back 2 days later and had the exact same experience in reverse. What on earth is wrong with Britain?!
If you can put up with the long journey times
Don't forget uncomfortable and with very limited luggage options.
there are still coaches I suppose, which do take advantage of the same subsidised road network as cars, but do benefit from the scalability of moving ~50 odd passengers rather than ~4.
If you have 4 in a car the cost is actually pretty good on a per person basis.
Don’t forget uncomfortable and with very limited luggage options.
When where you last on a long distance bus? or any bus? They are not like that nowadays IME
So just Amortise those costs, they’re not imaginary: 1/365th of your insurance/VED/Finance
They also have to be paid whether you drive to London, Tehran, the shops or nowhere at all on any given day. Nobody (barring someone buying an £80 Honda to prove some sort of odd point or a tourist) buys a car for one trip so they're irrelevant to the overall trip cost since you would still have to pay them if you took the train, bus, plane or cycled.
When where you last on a long distance bus? or any bus? They are not like that nowadays IME
Back at you. Want to take a bike? Tough. They very much are crap and I'm struggling to understand how they could get better. A bus is a bus.
Not if you don't have a car.
Of course the fixed costs of a car need to be accounted for.
there is the additional cost per trip and the total cost
On a coach, just before pandemic, on a bus a year ago. I don't head into large cities that often at the moment.
Experiences and personal situations can and do vary between people.
Not if you don’t have a car.
Well obviously.
Of course the fixed costs of a car need to be accounted for.
No they don't, because those fixed car ownership costs apply regardless of whether you use it or not! If I have, for the sake of argument, £10 of fixed ownership costs per day (Tax, insurance and finance) then those costs could be added to my train fare as well. They don't magically go away just because I'm using an alternative form of transport (much as I would like PAYG).
If you want to discuss the overall cost of car ownership vs exclusively using public transport or other means start another thread but that's not what's being discussed here. We are talking about a single trip that an existing car owner may take.
(and in the case of the op, would most likely involve a leg by car anyhow as its a bit difficult to carry my kit on the bike, the nearest train station is 5mi away and only served by bus about 0.4 times a day so any cost of owning a car has to be added to the train just as much as it does to the car journey. YMMV of course)
It has in practice cost me £74 outbound & I'll do the inbound on the day once I know I'm finished and headed home.
Managed to push this week to next Wednesday in the end which is a bonus as it was looking like Friday otherwise.
Right on cue I book a journey from Dunblane to Slough(!) area for mid July - 10 weeks out - and it is a reasonable £160 return.
I have avoided Avanti again though, so go down the east coast with LNER.
add up the fuel, ULEZ and parking costs you incur going into that there London.
I wonder whether the best thing TfL could do is create huge short- and long-stay car parks just outside London? Driving the 200-250 miles to London doesn't phase me but I'd rather eat pins than drive through it. I remember one time driving back out through Kew and thinking that never has a district been more aptly named. If there was a massive multi-storey at say Luton than didn't cost a kidney to park in for a week I'd probably spend a lot more time down there.
Aarhus
...in the middle of our street?
than didn’t cost a kidney to park in for a week
Ahh...you want another subsidy for drivers...the market is already telling you what the price of parking is.
of course it’s hard to put a price on the damage to your mental health that driving a car round London must do
You’ve got a point there. I had the displeasure of driving around London over Christmas. I actually think it took years of my life. Of course, on the other side of the coin, one of the most stressful times of my life was having to rely on trains in London. Crammed into a sardine tin held for hours outside Clapham Junction with no explanation… regularly. Do you want your anxiety meltdown served up publicly or privately?
Right on cue I book a journey from Dunblane to Slough(!) area for mid July – 10 weeks out – and it is a reasonable £160 return.
I'd pay £160 to not go to Slough. (qualified opinion form living near Slough 25 years ago. I accept things may have moved on since then)
What on earth is wrong with Britain?!
The long version is far too long and involved to write out.
The short version is "Tories".
When where you last on a long distance bus? or any bus? They are not like that nowadays IME
I occasionally (couple of times a year) take a national express coach up to heathrow, as its the least-terrible public tranport option (takes 2 hours vs 2 hours 20 with 2 changes by train vs 1 hour by car). Its noisy, slow and uncomfortable. Luggage isn't too bad.
To be fair on them, last time I got a National Express they let me put a bike in the luggage compartment, didn't seem like a big deal although the T&C's say you can't.
I’d pay £160 to not go to Slough. (qualified opinion form living near Slough 25 years ago. I accept things may have moved on since then)
Don't people going to the "Slough area" just say Windsor, or Windsor and Maidenhead, or even just "West London" which apparently now officially extends to Bracknell?
My question is why on earth should it be that complicated? How are is a fair system when you need to know multiple different ways of booking?
My thoughts precisely. OK, if annoying, for those of us that have the time and means to sit and work out all the different options, but unfair on those who don't.
My thoughts precisely. OK, if annoying, for those of us that have the time and means to sit and work out all the different options, but unfair on those who don’t.
That's kind of how it's supposed to be though.
Offer discounts that require a few hoops to be jumped through for people who want to pay less, and a full price for peak time business travelers expensing it.
Bit like hotels, if you actually have the misfortune to walk into a motorway service station Holliday Inn there's likely a sign behind the desk to tell you it's £180 a night.
No one, except photocopier salesmen with a company credit card actually pays that rate. Everyone else either logs onto Hotel.com or phones them up from the car park and pays £35 for their miserable nights sleep.
Similar; my regular £159/return Reading to Newcastle was cheaper in advance, but a client was paying and it was easier for me to just be able to turn up and get on whichever train I could. If it had been my own money I'd have booked a week ahead for half the price.
I do Edinburgh to Kings Cross monthly. The LNER advance first class tickets are usually around £125 each way.
I do sometime forget the pain associated with it and opt to fly, but the extras on top of the £50 each way fares soon add up. Airport parking, taking a carry on bag that can hold a few days clothes and kit and travel from LGW/STN/LHR into the centre usually easily double the fare.
That’s kind of how it’s supposed to be though.
Only in this ****ed up excuse for a country, how come I can log onto bahn.de and book a simple to understand fare just about anywhere in Europe (barring the ridiculously cheap unlimited travel tickets so many countries rail operators sell)?
Everyone else either logs onto Hotel.com or phones them up from the car park and pays £35 for their miserable nights sleep.
Except in your analogy the room is priced by the hour and you have to book 2 hours before you arrive until 1am then book it again till 8 followed by another booking to 2pm when you only wanted to stay until 10.
My question is why on earth should it be that complicated? How are is a fair system when you need to know multiple different ways of booking?
Thetrainline works all this out for you, including split tickets now. I've dabbled with other services such as ones run by the train operators (eg, Virgin) and I don't recall them ever being significantly cheaper.
Am I missing something? Has it changed since I last bought an expensive train ticket?
Why should you have to piss about splitting tickets?
Why is is significantly cheaper to travel further?
Is it too much to ask just to swipe on at the start and swipe off at the end, your fare calulated according to distance travelled and service used?
Christ, I can't even book most fares for early July right now, WTAF is that about?
Why should you have to piss about splitting tickets?
Thetrainline works all this out for you
🤷♂️
Why is is significantly cheaper to travel further?
No idea. Is it, have you got a current example? That's abject madness if so.
Is it too much to ask just to swipe on at the start and swipe off at the end, your fare calulated according to distance travelled and service used?
Supply and demand.
Have you never bought a hotel room? The room and the service doesn't change whether you book six months in advance or the day before, or whether the Foo Fighters / Eurovision / the FA Cup is occurring just down the road, but I bet you my bike that the price does.
If I were to guess, I'd assume that the price hikes when it's busy subsidises running services at a loss when it's dead. Either that or it's plain old corporate greed, in which case you can blame Fatcher for mass privatisation.
Christ, I can’t even book most fares for early July right now, WTAF is that about?
Tickets (IME) are released six weeks in advance. Come back in a couple of weeks.
No idea if this will work for you, last time I had to go to London I knew the out train I needed but no idea of the return, so pre booked a single and then went for a turn up for the return (in the even train strike so got a coach home...)
In total it was c90 rather than the £230 for a open return (This is Cheltenham to London)
And don't get me started on why if I drive 15miles to Evesham to get the train the open return is under half the price!
This is all quite simple really.
It is EXACTLY what people over 18 YO all over the country voted for in May 1992 in electing a Tory party for the 4th time in a row. It was John Major's major (no pun intended) pillar in his manifesto at the time.
Don't like it ? Make sure to vote appropriately at elections then.
(And another case of the younger generation fhooked over by decisions by the Tories in the 1980s and 90s. No different to the prices of gas, oil, water, electricity, and the environment. All broken up and sold for a quick buck for a few Tory mates.
Why is is significantly cheaper to travel further?
No idea. Is it, have you got a current example? That’s abject madness if so.
Yes - I got a train from fife the other day - a return to eskbank as cheaper than a return to Edinburgh despite eskbank being 7miles further and a change of train
No idea. Is it, have you got a current example? That’s abject madness if so.
Page 1, also check moneysavingexpert, it's a thing.
I don't use thetrainline as they charge booking fees and I already have the Scotrail app anyway.
Tickets (IME) are released six weeks in advance. Come back in a couple of weeks.
Which is also pish. Pretty sure it used to be 120 days, I certainly wasn't booking train tickets at 6 weeks notice as a student.
Yes – I got a train from fife the other day – a return to eskbank as cheaper than a return to Edinburgh despite eskbank being 7miles further and a change of train
Some services (Scotland in particular but rural / less used locations in general) are subsidised quite heavily, either in an attempt to encourage patronage or because charging "full" price would penalise the very few people that rely on it.
I got the train from Wick to Inverness a while ago and it was a lot cheaper to do the full 4.5hr(!) journey from Wick than it was to go from 40 mins outside Inverness. Reason being that Wick / Thurso (and some of those middle of bloody nowhere stations in the far north) are so isolated that the train is essential so charging full whack would be very unfair to the poor farmer that relies on it once a week.
Happens local to me as well across the Peak District.
It is EXACTLY what people over 18 YO all over the country voted for in May 1992 in electing a Tory party for the 4th time in a row. It was John Major’s major (no pun intended) pillar in his manifesto at the time.
Yep, the "dream" (promise) of private investment rather lacking the bit where they have shareholders that want to be handsomely rewarded and will nick all the profit...
Rather than the really boring but pragmatic solution of having public transport as a public service, funded by the public purse because it benefits everyone (even drivers!).
No idea. Is it, have you got a current example? That’s abject madness
Borders Railway, Tweedbank to Waveley in peak time. If you want a return ticket travelling back the next day you are better off buying a ticket to Edinburgh Park, which is a longer journey involving a change of train, at Waverley. It’s £23.90 to travel to Waverley or £21 to buy a longer ticket to Edinburgh Park. Ticket machines will never prompt this so you either need to be in the know club or buy ticket from a helpful conductor.
Crazy.
Family ticket from Ladybank to Edinburgh. Cheaper to buy a ticket from Perth, only found out as we had a nice conductor.
It is EXACTLY what people over 18 YO all over the country voted for in May 1992 in electing a Tory party for the 4th time in a row. It was John Major’s major (no pun intended) pillar in his manifesto at the time.
Hmm,1997, Labour, and John Prescott in particular, said they were going to undo all of the changes and privatisations of the rail system, but did absolutely nothing in their 13 years. In fact they left the railways in a worse position, as the regualtion was awful during their period in office, and led to a number of deaths due to poor infrastructure.
Covid, and the market, has now done what the Politicians couldnt, or wouldnt, do, and most of the UK rail services are in the public sector now [1]. Yes, that’s right. There are numerous names running the trains, but all controlled by the Government, or, local Government (merseyside, Tyne area,London etc). The Companies whose names are on the train dont have any say in how to run the trains, the DfT tells them what to do, they get paid a Management fee for doing that, they have no input on ticket prices, and take no percentage of fares, they are on a set fee.
But, that isnt a good thing. The DfT run the rails now, and make some bloody awful decisions. Why are there still 45+ yo trains on the network? Because the DfT wont allow the Train Companies to buy or lease newer ones. It was the DfT who specified the dual power (electric and diesel) for the East Coast Mainline, when there had been electric only trains running for the previous 20+ years. Now the trains have to haul a 10 tonne+ engine around at all times under the wires, losing efficiency, and, most of all, at a far higher leasing rate compared to an electric only train.
[1] The only true private trains are the ‘open access’ trains, run by Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo, and of course, Charter services.
But how many stops did it make in 3.5 hours? The trains I drive are nearly always late, but a trip between Kent and London in rush hour has 13 stops and they build a minute into the diagram to load and unload at each stop. Which you can imagine is impossible on a commuter service. It's the stopping that causes the delays and volume of traffic through junctions
