Just a mini rant really. I've need to be in London this week, there and back in the day.
If I actually have time to get to anywhere other than KGX it's £250 each way average from Harrogate on the off peak services, that's over £1 a mile!
They've never been a cheap option in the UK but that's crazy.
Last time I went was a couple of weeks ago, it was about £75 each way on the cheap services, £150 on the peak ones.
First thought was it's the coronation craziness but Friday is notably cheaper than mid week, and next week, including Monday, is back to "normal"
I'd looked at Glasgow last week and it was similarly £180-200 each way.
Utter nonsense, and people wonder why folks don't use public transport more.
Rant over.
Super Off Peak Return is £139, what are you trying to book for £500, the turn up on the day and book first class price?
I used to commute Newcastle to Reading weekly, the train was £159 return, and that was turning up at the station on the day at 7am. Diesel would have cost ~£80, but the train was quicker, I averaged ~3.5 hours of productive work time each way, and the travel time includes a nice stroll/Boris Bike through London, not M1/M25/M4 Purgatory.
I remember an article in a newspaper where a couple drove from Newcastle to London for less than the cost of the train. As you say, it is utterly insane
LNER app very helpful for getting good prices.
I remember an article in a newspaper where a couple drove from Newcastle to London for less than the cost of the train. As you say, it is utterly insane
It is if you ignore the amount of money the government throws into roadbuilding, and the fact you don't have to personally spend thousands of pounds to buy/lease a train, and the maintenance, and the insurance, and that's before you get to the externalities.
Sometimes booking a seat from another station say further North than Harrogate can make the tickets cheaper.
One time I booked a seat to London from Penrith for half the price of the ticket going from Preston. On the same train!
Regularly have to travel from Chester to London and the prices are similarly astronomical. Some days cheaper tickets are available, but I’ve even found being able to book in advance is equally a lottery where they haven’t published whether a train is going to be running or not.
Last week I ended up driving to Bedford and getting the train for the last part of the journey to avoid having to drive in Central London.
Yeah loads of problems with the market trying to maintain a system for public transport - rewards early booking - we just booked 12 weeks ahead and it was only £12.50 for a trip to London on Eastcoast line. But you can only do that if you're very well planned and I know real life isn't like that mostly.
Get some money invested and remove the profit makers.
It's as if there might be another way ...
It’s ridiculous that we have a peak and off peak fare system for rail, yet you can drive at any time of the day and pay nothing for using the motorway.
I occasionally take the train but the recent inflation linked increases now take a return to more than £150, and that’s super off-peak.
Wish they’d reintroduce the flights between Heathrow and Leeds. £60, took less than 40 minutes, and didn’t shut down every weekend.
One time I booked a seat to London from Penrith for half the price of the ticket going from Preston. On the same train!
I wonder if there are Scottish rail subsidies? I used to do this a lot until a guard realised that I’d got on at York and pointed out that it was fare evasion (if you have an Advance ticket).
I’m amazed the government hasn’t offered advice on this already.
Readjust your expectations to post Brexit reality. Just stop buying full size trains. Hornby do a good range of scale model size ones.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63998198
Peak ScotRail fares to be scrapped for six months
Its almost as if there is another way 🙂
Took the Glasgow / Edinburgh fast train the other day. Cheaper than driving, faster than driving, free wifi, comfy, quiet train but almost full so loads using it.
Super Off Peak Return is £139, what are you trying to book for £500, the turn up on the day and book first class price?
Book 5 minutes ahead on an off peak service is about £75 each way normally but no, not this week.
Nothing crazy in terms of ticket though
according to trainline.com you can get the 1136 to kings cross travelling today for £45.70 one way
I was absolutely shocked when a friend of mine told me how much he paid for two season train tickets from Luton to London. You could buy a new car for the same price!
Peak ScotRail fares to be scrapped for six months
I assume that six months aligns quite nicely with a significant electoral cycle?
I also assume the impact will be the lowest fares will go up significantly and the most expensive down a little too meet at about 85% of the current peak price.
(FWIW I think they've already done the scrapping peak fares on the east coast mainline as a pilot?)
(I've not read the article BTW so this might will be covered there in)
My 35 minute each way trip from MK to London is a staggering £598 a month
Service has improved lately, but I still only get a seat 50% of the time, luckily its a short trip and I always have headphones and a book!
Trains can be very cheap.
I booked 2 x 1st class tickets, the day before travel, from Berlin to Amsterdam, for 175 euro.
I have to buy them through an expense system at work, which is great as it's not my money but Cardiff to London is ALWAYS £500 return with this system. It doesn't matter if I book weeks/months in advance, it's always around the £250 mark each way.
I have my suspicions that people buying tickets through work schemes like mine are the only reason why there are still people on the train.
It is if you ignore the amount of money the government throws into roadbuilding, and the fact you don’t have to personally spend thousands of pounds to buy/lease a train, and the maintenance, and the insurance, and that’s before you get to the externalities.
But this example included buying, insuring and taxing the car!
Return to London for 2 (Doncaster to KGX) last weekend was less the £100 booked in advance though. That;'s less than £25 each way. Easier, quicker and cheaper than driving. Obviously that's no good if you can't get the early bird tickets and you're booking last minute but I would choose train every time to get to London if you know your plans early enough.
how can you scrap something then bring it back 6 months later? 🤔 Surely once it's scrapped, it's gone forever?Peak ScotRail fares to be scrapped for six months
Try splitticketing.com which can sometimes save a reasonable amount.
Also worth looking at swapping to the ECML and going via Sheffield/Nottingham (East Midlands Rail), that line is often cheaper than LNER.
I agree though, it's insane both the cost of tickets and the hoops you have to jump through to get anything at a reasonable price.
I remember an article in a newspaper where a couple drove from Newcastle to London for less than the cost of the train. As you say, it is utterly insane
Yes, for petrol costs. Add in car depreciation, wear and tear, congestion charge, ULEZ charge, the hard work of driving, insurance, road fund etc, and the costs are not too different if you can get an advance ticket. Yes, turn up and go prices are expensive, but there are usually cheaper alternatives.
I’m not sure where the OP got his prices from, but I've just looked at the Trainline, and its £162.50 single, on the 6.41 and 6.56, and £139.40 on the 7.09., the price is £279.60 second class return. Return at 19.00, and the price is down to £209.70.
If you want first class, then expect to be pumped.
splitticketing.com for on the day bookings....
Trainline also does this to some extent.
Do not buy in the station....🤷♂️
No idea how you’re getting those prices. Wed / Thu on those trains around £240 Wed / Thu, loads cheaper on Friday. LNER app.
Expensive, unpleasant and unreliable. Have you considered getting a car?
I’m not sure where the OP got his prices from, but I’ve just looked at the Trainline, and its £162.50 single, on the 6.41 and 6.56, and £139.40 on the 7.09
Direct from lner, as in the (sorry its a bit rubbish) photo.
Oddly, since I started the thread, trains for Thursday are now down to £75 outbound and £105 inbound.
Utterly mad.
My 35 minute each way trip from MK to London is a staggering £598 a month
Service has improved lately, but I still only get a seat 50% of the time
That's pricey but <googles> 53 miles in just over half an hour must surely be one of the quickest commuter runs around. I've got family in Zone 3 who take longer to get to Euston than that!
But this example included buying, insuring and taxing the car!
Sure, if you buy an absolute shed, tax it for a month, cancel the insurance and breakdown cover as soon as you get home, sell the car afterwards, and ignore the amount of government spending on the roads that allowed you to do it.
And then compare it to 2x 1st class train tickets.
Because there's no way you're actually buying a car and driving to London and back for less than 2x ~£140.
Diesel - £70
Congestion charge - £15
Parking - £60 (it's actually cheapest to just park up and pay the PCN in Zone 1)
ULEZ - £12.50
= £157.50 and you've not even bought, insured, taxes, breakdown covered the car yet.
Indeed train prices can be very silly if you are not flexible on time and date, or only book a few weeks in advance.
I also have had issues when it goes wrong, it really goes wrong. I cannot trust Avanti on west coast line to even run the train - I don't even book with them now. LNER on east coast line much better, but when it unravels it really does.
Last LNER - stuck at Edinburgh for 4 hours until I headed home and then drove to London. Last 5 Avanti's I booked - all cancelled...
Local train service - better, but still shoogly and some really crap old trains. Add in (as example) a return to see my son in city centre Glasgow is £18-23. Or the bus is faster, as regular, is £16 and now half the buses are electric - and I can book my bike on.
Oddly, since I started the thread, trains for Thursday are now down to £75 outbound and £105 inbound.
Try the trainline app, ignore the one way prices, when you click through to about the 3rd screen (i.e. after selecting the out/return trains) it'll give you the cheapest options (split tickets, specified trains, returns etc).
Not sure if this is the story (Bristol, not Newcastle): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43745117
A man bought a car, taxed and insured it and drove from London to Bristol - all for less than a return train fare.
Tom Church, 27, made the journey in an £80 Honda Civic. Including tax and petrol he spent £206.81 on the trip.
Obviously not a like for like comparison but it does show how cheap motoring is, partly due to the subsidies. It shouldn't be like this. Would love to use the train more but the car is so much cheaper.
made the journey in an £80 Honda Civic.
Yeah, that was even more of a gamble than the train service
HMRC - who are notoriously stingy - reckon it costs 45p per mile to run a car. It's likely more than that now, but that's the current rate.
So that's how you need to - as an average - compare the per-mile cost. Plus parking and ulez/czone
No idea how you’re getting those prices. Wed / Thu on those trains around £240 Wed / Thu, loads cheaper on Friday. LNER app.
I was told by a colleague this week that more and more folk are working a 4-day in office week - and Friday is the 'work from home day' in London, therefore the number of train users on a Friday afternoon as plummeted...
Currently also affecting pricing are the strikes.
As each union calls a strike it requires a new timetable to be constructed - it's unusual to be able to pull one 'off the shelf' given that each time there's a subtle variation which means any previous version is useless. To do this within the 14-day notice period that the industry is given is a high-pressure situation for the planning teams, as getting them to work together (safely and with coordination between all the services) into the system takes time. If the union then calls the strike off within 48 hours it's too late, the amended timetable has gone through and can't be changed back - even for the 'normal' one. It's a huge amount of work wasted but, contrary to popular belief, the train operators do try to do their best for numerous reasons so always try to do something to run trains when they can.
The cheaper tickets require suitable planning horizons - 12 weeks out is supposed to be when train tickets are released for sale, but with the pressure the planning teams are under, getting the base timetable sorted 16 weeks out, for the checks and balances by Network Rail to be completed by 14 weeks out for release 12 weeks out is simply too much. Hence, cheap tickets are in short supply.
I'm aware all the above is an explanation of the current situation. I'm not trying to defend it - especially in the post-COVID world.
EDIT: What doesn't help is that Trainline (and a few others I think) advertise a service at full open-fare if there are no other fares available, regardless of whether a timetable has been published yet, so people looking to book a service before the trains are released for sale see a massive fare.
EDIT 2: @dangeourbrain - I wouldn't be surprised if the above is what's happened to you this morning:
Oddly, since I started the thread, trains for Thursday are now down to £75 outbound and £105 inbound.
Yeah, that was even more of a gamble than the train service
I imagine if you got pulled over at any point that a car bought for (less than) scrap is going to be whole bingo card of painful fines, points, recovery costs. Starter for 10 I'm guessing 4 bald tyres and it's a Civic so it'll be rusty.
Yes, for petrol costs. Add in car depreciation, wear and tear, congestion charge, ULEZ charge, the hard work of driving, insurance, road fund etc, and the costs are not too different if you can get an advance ticket. Yes, turn up and go prices are expensive, but there are usually cheaper alternatives.
Fuel is £98.96 assuming 40mpg and £1.50 a litre.
Wear and tear on 580 miles shouldn't be that much but yes, is a cost even if it is fairly insignificant.
Congestion charge (£15) and ULEZ (£12.50) work out at £55 in and out IF they even apply.
Parking can be had for £25 per day, assume a long weekend so £75
Insurance gets paid regardless of if you drive it or not.
RFL, say it's £250 a year works out at 68.5 p per day (even a £650 RFL only wors out at £1.78 per day), also paid regardless of if you drive it or not.
Depreciation - depends on the car but that trip won't make much difference if any.
So overall cost is £228.96 plus whatever imaginary figure you want to attach to the unknowns.
Booking with LNER for 26th to 29th of May outbound is £107.80 and return is £82.40 for 2 adults leaving after 1700 which works out at £190.20
Honestly surprised at that. If we went with our daughter it would be even cheaper with a F&F railcard. Of course my figures are made up and in actuality the ULEZ charge most likely won't apply to most petrol cars.
Compare and contrast, however:
I have to make a journey to Gloucester for a course in July (actually it's a 2 week course so I need to get there and back twice if I want to come home at the weekend). To get down I have the choice of just one train, at 08:54 which will take 9h 6m and cost £103.60, the return costs the same, takes 7 hours and gets me in at 00:48 IF nothing goes wrong (otherwise I'm spending the night somewhere). Then I get a day at home before I rinse and repeat. £204.20 return.
Or I can fly to Birmingham in 1h 15 for £50 return plus luggage (£18.98) and then travel to Gloucester by train in 1h 20 for an additional £61.20 return. (£130.18 plus taxis to and from the hotel)
Or I could drive for £103.70 there and back in 6.5 hours each way (no charges at the other end).
HMRC – who are notoriously stingy – reckon it costs 45p per mile to run a car. It’s likely more than that now, but that’s the current rate.
In a previous discussion (on this subject!) I ran the numbers and it came out near that for me. My car is quite old ( depreciation costs are lower) but only gets about 37mpg (fuel costs are higher). So I reckon that for an 'average' car 45ppm is not a ludicrous estimate.
My experience of getting the train to London about every other week for 18 months is that it's vastly cheaper to book in advance. There's a limit to how far you can book in advance, I used to buy them the day they were released.
That said, I've just plumbed some numbers at random into thetrainline. Return Harrogate ➡ London this Friday to Sunday around midday is ~fifty quid each way. A "super off-peak return" is £139.40. If I go far enough into the future I'm seeing tickets for under £25.
We've got a family railcard but just paid about £130 for the 4 of us, York > Kings Cross return on a Saturday in July which I didn't think was too bad. Without the railcard (abut £30 for the year) it was double that.
In comparison, me and a work colleague are flying to Brussels for £80 return in a few weeks.
I used to do this a lot until a guard realised that I’d got on at York and pointed out that it was fare evasion
Well, that's just silly. You have a valid ticket covering the trip. Just because you have a ticket doesn't make travel mandatory.
Govt spending per passenger is 5 times higher for rail than road. Perhaps rail with it's very limited choice of routes is just an expensive but poor choice for most journeys apart from a few city centre to city centre routes?
https://iea.org.uk/blog/rail-versus-road
Meanwhile in Germany...
£45 for an all you can eat public transport pass...
...for a month!
