I can't imagine why you think I need to explain myself to you.
You don't have to. I asked to a question, you didn't have to answer it.
So anyway, after initially denying you meant what you said you eventually changed your mind and offered me examples of things which have "blighted" this country, other than the construction industry. Only they are all examples of products from decades ago which unsurprisingly are no longer in production.
So it would appear that, according to you at least, it's just the construction industry which is "blighting" this country now. Jolly good.
Jesus Ernie, You're like a dog with a bloody bone!
Ernest. Honestly, I mean it. Please leave me alone. I will never be your friend. I don't care how clever you are. Frankly it's boring. Well done.
I'm small, you're large.
I'm sad and humiliated.
My arguments and opinions are crap, yours are brilliant.
You've put me in my place and I realise now.
Can you send me your email address and I'll forward the money.
Just leave me alone.
Companies rely on the unwillingness of a lot of consumers to follow through with complaints and use that to make [b]extra profit[/b] from inferior products.
Well yes, this is a good point. Are the builders cutting costs to line their own pockets, or are they doing it to compete with other builders who are undercutting them?
The former would be their fault, the latter ours (as consumers).
Former. It also works in the commercial market. Some contractors are more aggressive them other. Bottom line and balance sheets.
Are the builders cutting costs to line their own pockets, or are they doing it to compete with other builders who are undercutting them?
I would say both occur depending on the builder. There are builders who will unscrupulously cut corners to save costs. And those that are conscientious and will try to cut costs to be competitive without compromising their own ethics and quality.
The former is of course harder, but reputation and recommendation is any tradesman's best advertisement and these tradesmen are nearly always busy.
To go back to something in one of your previous posts. I think that track home builders (large) produce more consistently poor quality products. Small builders are more hit and miss and so that's why a good one is so sought after. Yes people want cheaper, but only to a point and why tradesmen often get jobs even though theirs is not the cheapest quote.
I think that demand allows the bigger firms to operate and survive even though they are probably less likely to insist their product is finely finished for the mass market.
Incidentally, I have worked in the construction industry for many years and experienced first hand bullying from agents attempting to force a job along without a care in the world for the resulting quality issues.
One reason that I turn down any request to work for them now. I don't need the stress or the bad karma.
Jesus Ernie, You're like a dog with a bloody bone!
Like I said, I asked question, he didn't have to answer it. I didn't repeat it. He chose to falsely claim that I hadn't read his post properly. Obviously he thought I would drop it because presumably that's what usually happens when he makes patronising and condescending comments to people. Unfortunately I couldn't give a monkeys how patronising and condescending someone is 🙂
Our house was built by one of the biggest, but we had nothing like the horror stories mentioned here. Lucky maybe.
Problem is, there are so few houses to choose from at any one time.
Lived for 18 years in a inter war solid brick built, hipped roof semi. Spent thousands on it and continued to do so up until the rats came which was the final straw. Damp, dry rot, wood worm, the rats (mentioned earlier), drafts under skirting, constantly crumbling mortar, hollow and crazed plaster, quarry tiles on sand on half the downstairs floors, cold solid external walls which would insist on growing mildew on anything that was leant against it, a loft floor full of the torching that fell out of the roof, overspanned timer rafters that had bowed and cracked every upstairs ceiling, rising damp, slipping wall plates overhanging the external walls. The place cost a fortune to heat despite new windows, insulation, new heating system.
The house looked great from the roadside but you have to live in one to appreciate the money pit that old houses can be.
Sold it, bought a new build from Miller Homes 4 years ago and apart from a handful of popped plasterboard nails and a loose letter box flap I couldn't be happier with it. The place came with a 2 year no quibble call out for anything we had an issue with and the usual 10 year NHBC warranty. Yep heard horror stories about the NHBC thing but that's still far better than the sold as seen arrangement you get with non new builds.
Much rather spend my weekend biking than repairing whatever the hell fell off my house that week and nice not to be chucking money at DIY materials.
The reason it's cheaper to do it less well is that it takes less time, and you can employ less people do finish the houses, of course.
If the construction industry grasped prefab properly they could get far higher standards at the same cost and a lot less time on site.
It is a conservative industry and unfortunately, legislation largely supports it. Houses are given permission on how they look over how they perform is one example. Building is largely inward-looking and only meets the minimum standards rather than aspiring to better and making that a feature of the house.
If you need two cars, would you rather have two Fiestas or one Mercedes? Woudl you rather have a 4 bed Wimpey home or a 2 bed luxury flat, when you have 3 kids?We would all rather have better quality, but in many cases that exists - we just can't afford it.
The difference is more like the buying a Honda or Nissan with good build quality and a solid engine or something from the Rover plant that only seemed to make Friday afternoon specials with a random assortment of parts that were lying around.
Price and Quality are not always linked, it's very possible to spend a huge amount on materials and then assemble them in a shoddy way with expensive labour. It's also possible to use appropriate materials, cheap labour but have high standards.
A lot of consumers have moved from looking for value and quality to price alone. Assuming that all new things will need replacing fairly soon so it's better to buy cheap and often. Shimano BB Vs Hope/CK BB is one.
A lot of consumers have moved from looking for value and quality to price alone. Assuming that all new things will need replacing fairly soon so it's better to buy cheap and often.
This sums it up very well. That Friday afternoon work ethic which you see so often. I was thinking about the recent and infamous cappuccino thread, where I also commented on the lack of concern for customer satisfaction.
It took three attempts to get a "cappuccino" made correctly. Obviously they were able to do it. It took the same amount of time to do the one which was right..
I doubt I was the only dissatisfied customer, but so many people get used to being handed stuff with disdain or contempt, they just take it and move on.
That is precisely what feeds a "no need to try hard" attitude in the service industry, be it bottom brackets, houses or coffee.
[i]That Friday afternoon work ethic which you see so often[/i]
Yes, but IME it starts in the Board Room...
The difference is more like the buying a Honda or Nissan with good build quality and a solid engine or something from the Rover plant
Well, not really. I can order a car from a range of manufacturers whenever I want. Not so with houses. I have to buy whatever is there when I need to move. There aren't tables of reliability statistics to support my house purchase either.
A lot of consumers have moved from looking for value and quality to price alone
Take off the rose tinted specs. It has always been like this. It's also worse in some places. The cheap tat that some people buy in the US is amazing - it wouldn't sell here.
The cheap tat that some people buy in the US is amazing - it wouldn't sell here.
Cars, houses, or something else?
Houses for sure. Cars aren't quite as good either Imo, having heard some stories about mechanical corners cut. But most clearly, to me, is stuff like electronic goods. Think of the cheapest dvd player in Asda, say - Walmart will sell something one step below that in terms of build quality.
It took three attempts to get a "cappuccino" made correctly. Obviously they were able to do it. It took the same amount of time to do the one which was right.
Does this happen because either:
A. most people don't know what a decent cappucino looks like so a cheapskate barista doesn't need to bother making one, or;
B. cheap labour doesn't actually know, or care, how to make a decent cappucino?
the recent and infamous cappuccino thread
Link for the lols, please?
A Bovis home would be fine from new for a couple of years, but then I'd get rid or rent it out.
I was chatting to a surveyor for a well known mass-building firm a while back; he said (quite logically really) that all the materials used are the cheapest possible for the house to satisfy its 10 year warranty. After that all bets off.
So basically your Bovis home has a design life of 10 years. Nice.
We had a house built from the opposite perspective a few years ago; the mortgage surveyor for the subsequent buyer was gobsmacked at the high level construction standard (not expensive, just well done). We had people swearing to me that the house had been there for decades (it looked 1920s style) despite us knowing otherwise. Quality or style doesn't have to cost the earth, but it's the profit margins the big guys make that kill the houses for the mass-buyer market.
PMJ both.
The cheap tat that some people buy in the US is amazing - it wouldn't sell here.
I bet it would. If people had a shorter life expectancy of the house I reckon they would buy them at the price. I'm in the process of buying a house here in the US and, while it isn't a UK house, it isn't bad at all for what I'm paying and will see me out if we decide to stay in it.
Houses would sell, for sure. Simply because ours are so incredibly expensive. But then again I think if you built a US house here it wouldn't be much cheaper, since the land is so expensive.
However some electronics I've seen are just crap.
if you built a US house here it wouldn't be much cheaper
They're essentially wood framed construction, no? So most other stuff other than walls would have to be done in the usual way (wiring and plastering and all that). The brickwork, as a proportion of overall house cost, what is it, around 10% ?
Given that the cost of land is, in most populated places, the biggest part of the purchase price of a property it does seem wrong to skimp on the property build. I suppose it needs people to turn their noses up at the cheaper places to force developers to up their game.
As for older properties, well I'd always choose one but I did hear that often London houses are poorly built as they were built onto leased land whoever built the building didn't anticipate a lengthy ownership period. Don't suppose they had 10 year warranties back then....
whoever built the building didn't anticipate a lengthy ownership period.
Even if they did they could well not have cared. Just as many sharks around in Victorian times, and they had far less regulation to keep them in check!
Assuming it shows no signs of imminant failure the victorian house has my vote ....
Been standing for many a year .... Barring catastrophy theres no reason it should fall down round about you in your life time.
Im not going to defend the shitty workman ship on new builds but having been contract manager for an electrical installation firm on tonnes of new builds I would say that we were having to go in at almost cost to win the contracts and then paying our lads f...all to install just to make some kind of profit. This goes for the other trades also. The developers are merciless profit mongers who screw the trades down to unrealistic prices and have bugger all loyalty to good tradesmen as they will bin your next tender if it is a few quid more than someone elses. Its almost not worth the hassle if your a firm employing others to do the work,, the only people who can make a profit are the tiny sole traders who are effectively working for their wage on the site or the bigger firms who are as merciless as the developers and just use unskilled cheap labour and cheap as chips materials.....hence the crappy workmanship. At one point we were paying a bloke less than £500 to wire a three bed house. I came into the trade a good few years back as it was a reasonable job and the pay was ok, now it's been de-skilled and de-valued and people wonder why the quality is poor...like I said no excuse for bad workmanship but if people saw the time frames that tradesmen get to complete just to try and earn enough to get by!!
Last Victorian house I lived in.. that was the one where the walls were so thin that you could follow conversations in the next house. The back of the whole terrace was subsiding dramatically, so you were walking downhill into the kitchen and climbing out of it.
Great Victorian quality.
now it's been de-skilled and de-valued and people wonder why the quality is poor.
You just described the big problem with capitalism...
Both things you(or the survey you paid for. If you dont know what your looking at) really should have picked up on viewing ...buying a house isnt like buying a washing machine.
buying a house isnt like buying a washing machine.
This is why Currys never have houses when I go look! Doh! Wish somebody had pointed this out years ago.
Both things you(or the survey you paid for. If you dont know what your looking at) really should have picked up on viewing
I didn't buy it, it was rented.
I'm not complaining about buying a duff house (I didn't). I'm just saying that old houses are not necessarily any better than new ones. Or possibly even worse, since decent old houses are somewhat self-selecting. Crap houses from years ago fall down or get pulled down, so they aren't on the market any more.
Im not going to defend the shitty workman ship on new builds but having been contract manager for an electrical installation firm on tonnes of new builds I would say that we were having to go in at almost cost to win the contracts and then paying our lads f...all to install just to make some kind of profit. This goes for the other trades also. The developers are merciless profit mongers who screw the trades down to unrealistic prices and have bugger all loyalty to good tradesmen as they will bin your next tender if it is a few quid more than someone elses. Its almost not worth the hassle if your a firm employing others to do the work,, the only people who can make a profit are the tiny sole traders who are effectively working for their wage on the site or the bigger firms who are as merciless as the developers and just use unskilled cheap labour and cheap as chips materials.....hence the crappy workmanship. At one point we were paying a bloke less than £500 to wire a three bed house. I came into the trade a good few years back as it was a reasonable job and the pay was ok, now it's been de-skilled and de-valued and people wonder why the quality is poor...like I said no excuse for bad workmanship but if people saw the time frames that tradesmen get to complete just to try and earn enough to get by!!
That's pretty much my understanding too. Certainly the plumber that did our house (15 years old, local developer) was known by some locals and was a trainee. There's been plumbing problems in the houses since they were built.
What a way to motivate a workforce. 😐